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Thread: A Black Day in Louisville

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    Default A Black Day in Louisville

    About six hours ago the local government here in Louisville more or less banned strip clubs. An ordinance was passed that stipulates the following:

    1. No nudity (pasties and g-strings must be worn at all times)
    2. No alcohol
    3. Business to end at 1:00 AM
    4. 6 foot rule

    This is a pretty draconian set of rules if you ask me. It will go back to the courts I'm sure, but I'm not holding out much hope for a positive outcome.

    I'd also like to add that the local government has spent several hundred thousand dollars on their war on adult businesses. Meanwhile, they also failed to establish an agreement about the city budget, going before the governor who told them to go away and clean up their own god damn mess.

    I have to say that I hate this place. I'm born and raised here, and for the first time in my life I can say that this is the absolute worst fucking place on earth.

    I've got some questions.

    1. Other than Cincinatti is there any other major metropolitan area with such an overbearing, overreaching code or ordinance?

    2. I assume that their have been situations like this in the past. What have been the outcomes?

    3. How likely is this ordinance to stick?

    And finally,

    What can a poor, pissed off college student do to help?


    Fuck The Louisville Metro Council.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Fuck the Louisville Metro Council and the whole state of Washington, which has similar laws, only we can have nudity... at 6ft away.


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    Featured Member Chili Palmer's Avatar
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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Los Angeles tried to do this at the end of last year, with the killer amendments being the 6 foot rule and elimination of the VIP rooms and bed dances.

    The club owners quickly and quietly assembled a petition for a referendum on the subject, and made it clear to the city council members that they were assembling a HUGE warchest to target those trying to get rid of them. They got more than enough signatures to stay the law, then negotiated a settlement with the council to avoid a public vote: 6 foot law would go, and the clubs would get of the beds and the partitioned VIP rooms.

    Pretty much business as usual, though July will bring to deadline for clubs to remodel and then we'll see what really happens.

    Btw, nude dancing has been well established by the US Supreme Court as protected speech. As for the no alcohol rule, that's just the way it is in most states anyway, so I cannot really get too upset about that one.

    It does suck out loud, though. Sorry, dude.

    CP

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Ironically, Louisville has about 25 massage parlors where you can get the full load of extras for $40-$200.

    This is some 1600s Puritan stuff going on. Louisville Metro Council is a big bunch of fools.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    What can a poor, pissed off college student do to help?
    Do like we've done out here in SF/Berkeley for years.

    Organize peaceful protests, create positive awareness and advocacy through literature and social events, and form unions of students that register to vote and do so with important issues such as these being the deciding factors.

    The most important thing is to get community support. Students alone have the power to do this, but only through constructive and progressive means.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    In my opinion, the cities are only hurting themselves. You ban adult "entertainment" (which brings in a TON of revenue) and it's like cutting your hand off to stop a bleeding paper cut. They are losing a lot of money. Which is why, I would assume that Chicago may not particularly like its strip clubs, but we have quite a few of them and they are not bothered all that much. Why? Because the pay taxes...

    It's sad that people are always attempting to push their morals and values onto others. I always say...if you don't like it, don't do it.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Quote Originally Posted by deadmike link=board=27;threadid=6942;start=msg78398#msg7839 8 date=1077858452
    About six hours ago the local government here in Louisville more or less banned strip clubs. An ordinance was passed that stipulates the following:

    1. No nudity (pasties and g-strings must be worn at all times)
    2. No alcohol
    3. Business to end at 1:00 AM
    4. 6 foot rule
    Actually these type of ordinances are already in place in numerous localities across the country. We just lost fully nude dancing where I live. Dancers must now wear pasties and FULL bottoms, no thongs. Haven't stopped in to see the damage yet.

    This is a pretty draconian set of rules if you ask me. It will go back to the courts I'm sure, but I'm not holding out much hope for a positive outcome.
    I wouldn't.

    I'd also like to add that the local government has spent several hundred thousand dollars on their war on adult businesses. Meanwhile, they also failed to establish an agreement about the city budget, going before the governor who told them to go away and clean up their own god damn mess.
    Hey, its an election year. What better way for them to throw public attention off their lousy performance than appeal to the fundamentalist zealots who want these places shut down.

    2. I assume that their have been situations like this in the past. What have been the outcomes?
    Since a U.S. Supreme Court decision four years ago, not very good.

    3. How likely is this ordinance to stick?
    Tying it up in court may by some time (possibly a few years), but in the end, the chances of your ordinance being upheld is almost certain. Your best hope is that the city will come to some compromise with the club owners in exchange for not dragging this out in court.

    Sorry about the bad news, but its an election year and this is unfortunately going on everywhere. Until libertarian minded people quit hiding behind a veil of shame that we actually visit or work in these places, its likely to continue.

    Some reassurance that I can give you is that an ordinance passed and an ordinance enforced are two entirely different things. I'm sure that the local club owners there are already exploring countermeasures one of which is likely to be whatever noncompliance they feel that they can get away with.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Btw, nude dancing has been well established by the US Supreme Court as protected speech.
    Chili, unfortunately the recent Supreme Court Erie vs. PAPS case backtracked from previous positions, ruling that exotic dancing is NOT protected by the inner ambit of the first amendment. This was the basis for the Supreme Court to allow the city of Erie, PA to ban nudity in strip clubs. The Supreme Court also confirmed that it is NOT an abridgement of dancers' free speech rights for a state or city to regulate the degree of maximum exposure i.e. requiring any degree of crotch, breast and butt coverage that the state or city deems appropriate in the public interest.

    In previous cases the Supreme Court had ruled that states and cities also have the right to regulate the "time, place and manner" in which strip clubs can operate. The PAPS case only strengthened the previous position. As a result, cities have the right to enact zoning restrictions as to where clubs may and may not be located (= eventually closing down existing clubs which are currently operating in non-approved locations). Cities also have the right to enact business hours restrictions, i.e. clubs can't open before time x and must close by time y.

    States all have complete authority to determine conditions for the issuance of an alcohol license. This makes it possible for states to ban alcohol sales altogether, or for states to ban alcohol sales in certain types of establishments i.e. strip clubs.

    Now the distance rule issue was, to my knowledge, never specifically addressed by the Supreme Court. Distance rule limitations enacted in other cities have ALWAYS been as a condition for the issuance of an alcohol license. For example, NY clubs which serve alcohol must abide by a 6ft distance + raised platform rule because it was written into state alcohol laws as a condition of holding an alcohol license. However NY clubs which do not serve alcohol are not covered by the 6ft distance + raised platform requirement of the alcohol licensing law, and are only bound by any contact restrictions stemming from the NY state prostitution law.

    If Louisville is enacting a new ordinance which totally bans alcohol in strip clubs, any authority for a 6ft rule would have to come from a different source, probably trying to lump it in under the "time, place and manner" provisions of the Supreme Court ruling. This makes Louisville's 6ft rule provision open to appeal ... maybe. However, the closing time limitations, maximum exposure limitations, etc. appear to clearly fall under law the Supreme Court upheld in Erie vs. PAPS and are essentially unappealable by themselves.

    The no alcohol in strip clubs provision might also be appealable because the state and not individual cities have jurisdiction over alcohol laws. However, if Kentucky has "dry city" or "dry county" provisions written into the state alcohol laws, then Louisville is within their rights to ban alcohol in strip clubs within their own jurisdiction.

    Your only hope here for a successful appeal is to try and get the entire ordinance thrown out on the basis that one provision - the distance rule - is unconstitutional on the basis of exceeding the jurisdiction of city government. Put another way, state prostitution law may have the authority to ban certain types of contact between dancers and customers, but the city can't. Of course the flip side is that the city's cure might be to lobby for a change in state law to ban alcohol and establish a 6ft rule in all strip clubs state-wide.




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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Some reassurance that I can give you is that an ordinance passed and an ordinance enforced are two entirely different things. I'm sure that the local club owners there are already exploring countermeasures one of which is likely to be whatever noncompliance they feel that they can get away with.
    This is the irony of the situation. In many cities which have passed anti-dance club ordinances which have in turn severely hurt dancer earnings, many dancers have begun to offer just as much contact as before the ordinance was passed. In fact, since the penalties for violating the ordinance are usually just as severe as the penalties for violating state lewd conduct and prostitution laws, some dancers offer more contact now than they ever did before the ordinance was enacted. The theory is of course that they're better off earning as much money as possible offering "extras", so that when they are eventually busted they can apply some of that money to pay bail and to hire a high powered attorney who has a real shot at achieving a plea bargain deal and/or having the dancer's criminal record expunged. This results in a revolving door of "extras", busts, bail, plea bargains, and back to "extras" again (with the city court and the attorney now getting a regular 'cut' of the dancer's earnings via heavy fines and legal fees).

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    As far as liquor goes, Kentucky is a local option state. Jefferson County is "wet", but can under state law make its own rules. Prior to the merger, the City of Louisville was also "wet", but there were "dry" towns and cities within Jefferson County. Now, the entire city/county is "wet". But, there are new rules as it regards nudity/topless entertainment in clubs where liquor is served.

    There has long been tension between one club owner and Louisville. He finally moved his club into Jefferson County several years ago and went nude with liquor as was then allowed by Jefferson County rules. Now that the City and County have merged, Godfather is back in trouble. Deja Vu obtained a nude license several years ago from the City and does not offer liquor at all. They have periodically filed complaints against other clubs that either bend the rules or violate them. I'm sure Deja Vu is behind much of the present enforcement.

    Metro is also cracking down on massage parlors. The girls there are mostly illegals and are pretty much defenseless if they stick around for the trials. However, the few that have, have been acquitted because the Metro Police Officers have failed to appear for the trials. BCIS of course deports them. Draw whatever conclusions you like from the MPD's failure to show up for trials. Likewise, 7th Street Road is business as usual.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    I wish the government would quit making our decisions for us. Strippers don't hurt anyone!! I am sick and tired of hearing about people's rights to adult activity taken away.

    I want to marry who I choose, participate in strip clubs, and have anal sex. I am sick of politicians trying to make themselves look good to old voters by coming down on people's rights while using religion as an excuse
    Those who bring sunshine into lives of others, cannot keep it from themselves.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Apparently there is also a provision in the ordinance that bars dancers from taking tips. This was reported by a local television station website. I've also now read that the lawyer who wrote the ordinance does alot of christian-acitivist work. Note that I'm not slamming christians, I just don't want someone in that mindset anywhere near strip club regulation.

    Looks like I'm going to be putting a bunch of miles on my car driving to Lexington every month.

    Fuck.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Quote Originally Posted by deadmike link=board=27;threadid=6942;start=msg78747#msg7874 7 date=1077950511
    Apparently there is also a provision in the ordinance that bars dancers from taking tips. This was reported by a local television station website. I've also now read that the lawyer who wrote the ordinance does alot of christian-acitivist work. Note that I'm not slamming christians, I just don't want someone in that mindset anywhere near strip club regulation.

    Looks like I'm going to be putting a bunch of miles on my car driving to Lexington every month.
    Actually, you'll probably be able to find more 'action' in some Louisville clubs than you ever did. When this new ordinance cuts dancer earnings potential in half (which it will), some girls will undoubtedly resort to extreme measures in order to earn serious money again. As I said earlier with the 'revolving door' comment, if the penalties for violating the new ordinance are just as serious and expensive as violating state lewd conduct and prostitution laws, then girls really have nothing extra to lose if they decide to offer HJ's BJ's or the 'whole enchalada' in the VIP room in violation of state prostitution laws, versus offering a pre-ordinance contact lap dance in violation of the new ordinance. This is even more likely if the ordinance involves "no tipping", meaning that the only money that dancers can earn which won't have to be shared with the club will come from direct customer payments for 'extras' in the VIP room !

    If this goes down the way it has in other cities which have introduced strict anti-dance club ordinances, Louisville will wind up with one or two upscale "show clubs" which cater to the business and tourist crowd, which will follow the ordinance to the letter to avoid scaring off businessmen and tourists over potential busts, and which will attract the very best looking 1 or 2 dancers from every other club in Louisville since these will be the only clubs where it will still be possible for a dancer to earn decent money legally.

    Louisville will also likely wind up with a few "sleaze clubs", which will cater to the high contact and "extras" customers who aren't worried about adverse publicity if/when the club is busted. The "sleaze clubs" will of course attract dancers who are comfortable providing high contact and "extras" that the customer base expects. Girls trying to work in these clubs without providing high contact and "extras" will likely earn peanuts, and will also face a high risk of being busted as local cops usually aren't particular about sorting out the details of which dancer was actually doing what when they decide to make a sweep through a sleazy club.

    Any "middle of the road" clubs which try to stay in business following the ordinance will get killed financially. They will lose their best looking girls and highest spending customers to the "show clubs". They will lose their high contact customers to the "sleaze clubs". Basically they will wind up with less to offer would-be club customers than those customers can find in other clubs, both in terms of "eye candy" and in terms of contact, which is a formula for a slow descent into bankruptcy for both the "middle of the road" clubowners and for the dancers working in them.

    As far as liquor goes, Kentucky is a local option state. Jefferson County is "wet", but can under state law make its own rules. Prior to the merger, the City of Louisville was also "wet", but there were "dry" towns and cities within Jefferson County. Now, the entire city/county is "wet". But, there are new rules as it regards nudity/topless entertainment in clubs where liquor is served.
    Well, that kills the majority of grounds for appeal. It would appear that in Kentucky the cities have the option to establish their own alcohol laws.

    There still might be a trace of daylight for appealing the 6ft rule, though, because legal authority for it cannot stem from an agreed condition of obtaining a liquor license if no Louisville club will be granted a liquor license. Therefore authority of enacting a 6ft rule must stem from another source, probably the "time, place and manner" ruling - but a specific distance requirement was never considered in the "time, place and manner" case. While it's highly likely that an appeals court would uphold the principle that the "time, place and manner" doctrine does indeed give Louisville the authority to establish a 6ft rule, at least it might be grounds to bring an appeal of the new ordinance in the first place. This would provide Louisville clubowners with a 'repreive' for a few months while the legal wheels of the appeals process slowly turn, provided they can get a "stay order" to block enforcement of the ordinance until the appeals process is completed.

    So the next question is whether or not Louisville clubowners can co-operate with each other long enough to band together to organize an appeal, and whether or not Louisville clubowners figure it's worth it to pony up $50,000 - $100,000 to finance that appeal and buy themselves a few more months of status quo club operation on the assumption that they will eventually lose the appeal anyhow. For the clubowners who will eventually become the "show clubs" and the "sleaze clubs" after the ordinance takes effect, they have very little to gain by spending money supporting an appeal, since these clubs will probably earn more money after the ordinance takes effect than they do now. For the "middle of the road" clubowners, however, they basically have the whole future of their clubs at stake.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    I'm still probably gonna end up driving to Lex, Melonie. My favorite club doesn't have the most private of VIP rooms and the bouncers are pretty hardcore about keeping things legal in there. They're not overbearing, but if I was told I could get comfortable in there, I wouldn't. I mostly go to that club because it's a very laid back atmosphere and I can sit and enjoy the girls on stage without the endless drink and dance hustle that I've found in most joints in town. Or I can sit and talk to the girls and just relax after a hard week at school, and if I feel like it, get some privates dances.

    Sadly, this is one of the "middle of the road" clubs that will end up being hit hardest by all this mess. As much as this ordinance pisses me simply due to its nature, I think it sucks just as much that a group of people that generally nice are gonna get bent over and fucked by the local gov't.

    Question: Assuming the 6-foot rule stays intact, would that close the door on most of the VIP extras and "sleaze clubs" you mentioned or would they likely say "fuck it, we're not gonna adhere this section of the ordinance, we won't adhere to this either."

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    i agree with motherdaisy. we're all adults and should be able to enjoy our time in an all adult enviroment the way we want as long as we're not hurting anyone or invading their rights.
    i used to dance in louisville , and the owner of the club i worked in is not going to let this rest. as a matter of fact when they did this before he still had nude dancing on the stage for those who still wanted to. and said that if they were arrested he would post bail. the city has one hell of a fight on their hands.
    everyone wants to see a newborn baby but no one wants to see the mothers bloody sheets.- davinci

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Question: Assuming the 6-foot rule stays intact, would that close the door on most of the VIP extras and "sleaze clubs" you mentioned or would they likely say "fuck it, we're not gonna adhere this section of the ordinance, we won't adhere to this either."
    This was exactly my point. Consider an absurd analogy which equates city ordinance legal penalties versus state prostitution law penalties to drug dealing legal penalies versus first degree murder penalties. When the penalties for doing something illegal in a "small" way start to approach the penalties for doing something wrong in a "big" way, it encourages those willing to break the law to go for the "big" time. This is the underlying reason why drug dealers often decide to shoot it out with cops once mandatory life imprisonment drug dealer sentencing is enacted. This is also the reason that dancers often start offering "extras" in violation of state prostitution laws with misdemeanor sentencing after anti lap dance ordinances which also involve misdemeanor sentencing are enacted.

    In either example, if they're busted they both face about the same sentence whether they committed the "small" crime or the "big" crime, and if they're not caught they profit greatly in the meantime (which also helps to hire high powered attorneys to help them beat the rap the next time they are busted)!

    This is the irony that I was referring to, that cities imposing anti-dance club ordinances with stiff penalties in the belief that the new ordinance will reduce unwanted behavior in clubs are actually creating a situation which encourages even "worse" behavior to take place in some clubs.

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    Default Re:A Black Day in Louisville

    Ever notice how this stuff always seems to pop up every four years? Wait til after November and nobody will care. Til then be careful to follow the rules.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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