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Thread: All this talk about religion-my two cents

  1. #1
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    Default All this talk about religion-my two cents

    I have been quietly watching the lively exchanges regarding the religious issue in a post that I will not mention, as I believe it has now been closed… and would like to add my two cents worth. First, I should introduce myself, as none of you are familiar with me. My name is T, and I have been married to Gynger (who many of you know) for the last 11 years. Let me start by saying that this is not an avenue for me to defend my wife. She can take care of that herself, as all of you lovely ladies (and guys) on this forum can do yourselves. I would, however, like to make a couple of points regarding dancers in general, and the people that they associate with. I would also like to state to the religious girl who started this whole string of exchanges that I understand where you are coming from and where your convictions are.

    As Gynger has stated, we BOTH grew up in similar households as yours with the religious influence and pressure. We have both tried to be like you, I more than Gynger. So please realize that I understand your feelings and desire to make everyone conform to "the right way in God’s eyes". I would ask you in return that you try to understand where we are coming from. It was mentioned that women who do this kind of work degrade themselves and other women. Allegations and innuendos of prostitution were hinted at in previous posts. As with anything in life there are exceptions to the rule.

    There are always a few bad apples giving everyone a bad name. Even in your "circle" there are religious zealots who give Christians as a whole a bad name. But (to borrow a quote from Mr. T) I pity the fool that tries to physically touch my wife when she is performing or assumes that because she is a stripper that it’s OK to touch or expect more. Not because of what I would do but because of what she would do. Gynger demands respect when she is entertaining. And she usually gets it. I would bet that most of the girls on this forum would tell you the same thing about themselves.

    Because, you see, dancers have a certain air about them. A confidence. Dancing makes them into strong, powerful, self sustaining women. But it also makes them more understanding, caring and loving. They take what they do VERY seriously and it’s not just a hobby or a last resort for most of them. Most girls who dance for a living are intelligent and hard working. Many of them have college educations or are working toward a college education.

    The question they probably get the most tired of hearing from customers is, "What’s a smart, beautiful girl like you doing stripping?". I’ll tell you what they are doing - they are doing something that they love to do and making a damn decent living doing it. They are building their self esteem and self worth. They are building trust with their friends and their mates. They are becoming powerful, beautiful women who can do anything and be anything. It is anything BUT degrading. Yes, we have had some bad experiences with people from the religious right who claim to love everyone but don’t "walk the walk". Even family members have shunned some of us because we are different or wrong in their eyes. Probably the reason that most of us - and I say "us" referring to anyone who is on the fringe of society because yes, we on this forum are all freaky in more ways that one - shun the religious folks is because of the treatment that we have received or seen others receive. The "I love you as long as you are interested in my beliefs and as long as it appears that you are believing the same thing that I do" mentality doesn’t cut it with most of the real people who frequent this forum.

    And yes, we freaks are the normal people and when it comes right down to it we are the majority. If you were to take all of the "dirty, sinful" fringe lifestyle people out there - your strippers, your gays, lesbians & cross-dressers, your BDSMers, the swingers (OMG! You people really exist??? Yes we do, in greater numbers than you can imagine!) - you would realize that we’re not really the fringe at all. We are the people standing next to you in the grocery line with a box of Froot Loops and a gallon of milk. We are the parent sitting next to you at the PTA meeting. We are the mom helping her daughter deliver your Girl Scout cookies. We are the family that you see Sunday afternoon riding our bikes through the park.

    We are the people that are out delivering a Christmas presents and a warm meal to a co-worker who wouldn’t have had anything otherwise, while you sit in a warm church and pray for those people on Christmas Eve. Sometimes we are the answer to your prayers and you don’t even know it. In short, we are caring friends and parents who always looking out for others just as much as ourselves.

    Our children are taught respect and love. For ALL people, not just people who are like us. And you might be surprised to learn that in some aspects we are a lot like you. We have dreams. We have morals. We have values. Some of us are even pro-life like you. Some of us have read the bible several times and a few might even know their way around it better than you.

    My point is, just because our walk with God is different than yours doesn’t mean that it’s not correct. We can respect that you have different opinions than us. We can respect that you have different morals and values. But please don’t judge our relationship with God. I am quite comfortable with my relationship with God and I know where I stand in His eyes and in His heart. We should all take a lesson from the story of the woman at the well. Yes, Jesus said to "go forth, and sin no more.". But before he told her that he told some other folks who thought they were doing "the right thing" to basically mind their own business until their own back yard was cleaned up. I am not saying anything about YOUR back yard.

    I know nothing about you other than what you have said here. I just think the best plan at this point is to agree that we disagree,
    respect each other’s beliefs and respect each other as humans and leave it at that. I am sorry for the length of this post and I appreciate everone’s patience. God Bless us All.


  2. #2
    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    Well said, Tman. You and I wouldn't find much disagreement between us on this topic.

    To me the key question isn't whether you believe in God but how you define Him. I think most people believe in some supreme power, whether they choose to call it God or not. The only alternative is to believe that the entire creation and everything since has been purely random chance, which doesn't seem possible to me. All I have to do is look at nature to come to that conclusion.

    But I reject the traditional church's view of God, I don't see how God could possibly be judgemental or exhibit conditional love, which is how many churches present Him. It also seems to me that many churches worship Jesus but ingore his messages. I'm especially turned off by the arrogance that permits any church leader to declare that theirs is the one true religion. I don't believe there is any one true religion. This belief that "I'm right and you're wrong, therefore I'm better than you" is what causes most of the world's problems (9/11 for example.)

    Personally I believe that the words God, love and life are synonymous, which is pretty much the "New Age" view of things. Have you ever read Neale Donald Walsch's "Conversations with God" series of books? He comes closer to describing my beliefs than anything else I've ever read. You'd probably enjoy them. Start with book 1.

    I think the phrase "God created man in his own image" is the most important thing in the Bible. How you interpret that phrase largely determines your beliefs.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

  3. #3
    God/dess Rhiannon's Avatar
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    Wow Tman. I applaud you. Welcome to SW. Gynger is one cool chick, I must say (and not just because she's my fellow 80's freak.. heh).

    Every point that you made was valid and said very very well.

    Like I've said before, I don't have problems with people of other faiths, unless they 1) Try and push their beliefs onto me, or 2) Attack me for what I believe. Both of these have happened to me frequently, and more often in my adult years. I've gotten comments like "You haven't grown out of that yet?", or, "Find God". Not to mean this offensively to anyone, but I usually shoot back with "Find God? I didnt know he was lost", or "I'll look for him after I find Waldo", or, my fave, "God? Yes, I've found many."

    In my opinion, you can worship anything in this world, and I'll like you just the same, unless you try to convert me. Then, watch out.. lol

    Welcome again, T. Hope to see you post more. I'm trying to get my hubby on here as well, but he hates the internet basically, unless it's Diablo.. lol


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    Veteran Member Topaz's Avatar
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    i believe in God...and Jesus...and the Holy Spirit...

    i read my bible daily...and pray almost daily...sometimes i attend church...

    i do these things...to keep me here...if i did not...i probably would have taken myself out a long time ago...

    the problem i have with 'organized religion'...is there are some who think if others don't believe and worship God the same way they do...they will condem you to hell...some are quick to demonize others...but i wonder how many skeleton bones they're hiding in their closet...

    so i don't follow the 'rules' of a specific denomination...but that doesn't make me any less of a Christian...'cause i don't asume a whole lot of lables...and i don't participate in the judgemental...sanctimonial (sp)...'holier that thou'...finger pointing...that some right wingers do...because i know that i'm NOT a perfect saint...so i don't pretend to be...

    and that's all i have to say...

    Why do some people still have to fight...to get the same opportunities...that are given to others??...

    Look out for self...because noone else will...AND
    The greatest revenge in the world...is success...

    Reclusivness...is a good thing.

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Deanna's Avatar
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    hey T,
    Very well put ^5. I was wondering if and when you would ever come in and post... welcome.

    Talk to you soon... give my girl a big smooooooch for me.


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    Veteran Member foxee555's Avatar
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    I personally am incapable of being offended by religious fundamentalists. Their beliefs have no context in my life. I'm Buddhist, and without going into great detail, that means that my spiritual salvation is in my own hands only. So, when someone gets in my ear about hellfire and brimstone and great white men in the sky, I have to laugh. I don't believe there is reality to these ancient myths. So the thought of demons poking mew in the ass for all eternity is ludicrus.
    That's not at all to say that I'm not spiritually. Karma is very real. You can see it in action all the live long day. But, at the end of the dayif someone gets in a twist about whether I'M going to hell or not, it's THEIR problem. I sleep just fine at night.

    And have you ever thought when someone is blasting you about salvation this, and so-and-so is the savior that... "who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?!"

    All that said, T it was nice of you to drop by with some kind uplifting comments! Good karma to you.
    I am lazy and I like to party


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    Banned Blade's Avatar
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    All I can say on this subject is: PREACH IT BROTHER BAR-B-QUE!!!!!

  8. #8
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    Tman, I haven't been following the discussion about/with Gynger but I can offer some advice about dealing with this web site.
    First of all "agreeing to disagree" means nothing more than letting the issue remain unresolved or letting the charges remain.
    If I have a credit card and someone finds out the number then begins to rack up charges unauthorized do you think I will stand still for that? Heck no! If I find out the person making the charges on MY account and confront them to which them come back with," Your opinion doesn't matter here. You should accept what we say. You have no say in the matter. Your opinion is invalid" don't you think I will answer back to them? I don't care how many of them there are or how loud they scream . I will fight because I know I'm in the right and I'll take the battle to wherever they may hide.
    If someone says something about you or someone you know intimately that is wrong , you have to fight it. It's really ridiculous to say,"Can't we just get along?"

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Rayleen's Avatar
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    *Most people have a fairly fixed set of beliefs with which they are comfortable. These help them get through life, and if these ideas are in jeopardy they may react irrationally.

    This involves a psychological defense mechanism known as "avoidance of cognitive dissonance". We refer to this problem as "antiprocess" because while the person preprocesses the information subconsciously, he or she does not process the information consciously. Indeed, he or she actively evades conscious processing. When this happens the person can appear to be stubborn or even stupid.

    Once you learn to spot antiprocess, you will see how it causes unresolvable arguments. Certain types of phrases serve as warning signs that a debate has run up against antiprocess:

    You know perfectly well ...
    You are deliberately ...
    You are intentionally trying to deceive ...
    You know I'm right, but ...


    When you see somebody "mind-reading" like this — telling somebody else what they "know" or what they are thinking — it's quite likely that antiprocess has entered into the discussion.



    *taken from AOL on flame wars

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    I think it's sad when people are unwilling to question their beliefs. Personally I'm always open to new ideas, that's why I keep reading and posting on topics such as this. I know so many people who hang onto beliefs that aren't working for them, beliefs that are causing them unhappiness. They'd rather be right than be happy. As I've said before, my own belief is that there is no one right set of beliefs, the only relevant issue is whether your beliefs are working for you or not. If so you've found your truth, if not keep looking.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

  11. #11
    Sitri
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    It all boils down to a simple thing. We are not here to be Judges and try people based on what we believe they should be doing by interpeting the Bible.
    We are not put here to be an attorney for religion and argue all of the points.
    The only way is that if you believe in something be a witness to what you believe in and show it in how you act toward others.
    What I really appreciate about the people in this site is there "by and large" acceptance of other viewpoints.
    chiao.

  12. #12
    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:All this talk about religion-my two cents

    Well said Sitri. Or to put it the other way around, your actions say much more about what you truly believe than your words ever will.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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