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  1. #26
    Veteran Member Weluckyfew's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    <<< I agree with you that it must be much easier for people who were not directly affected by 9/11 to be voicing opinions undermining the coalition middle east war effort than if they had the horrific personal memory of that day as we do.>>>

    I&#039;m sorry for your loss, but don&#039;t use it to say you&#039;re the only one who has a right to decide what this country does in ALL of our names. This war had fuck nothing to do with 9/11 - even if Saddam had WMDs he certainly wouldn&#039;t have given them to terrorists who hate him as much as they do us - he would have nothing to gain and everything to lose (and they&#039;d be as likely to use them on him as on us). And yes, that&#039;s my opinion, but it was also the opinion of the CIA in a report prepared before the war.

    <<<Part of me feels bad for the supposed mistreatment of arab prisoners by coalition personnel. But on the other hand, another part of me wants to alligator clip a 220v generator to their scrotums and have fun throwing the switch !>>>
    Well, there we go. You think these terrorists are such unspeakable maniacs? You&#039;re ready to torture people (who may have been innocent, we&#039;ll never know) someone else talks about being ready to nuke a path from baghdad to Kabul (fuck off to the millions of innocents) So that makes you different from the terrorists how? They see what they&#039;re doing as justifiable revenge. Did you know that many of these terrorists come from an Egyptian muslim group that was peacefully working for political change? they were PEACEFULLY working for political change until the Egyptian government started arresting the members and toruring/killing them. Then, what do you know, they became militant and violent.

    I&#039;m am not defending the terrorists AT ALL. i want them stopped. i want them, when necessary, killed. but i want us to act with our brains, not out guts. I want to fight smart, not just hard. I want to see us win this war. But it&#039;s going to take more than the ability to blow the shit out of everything.

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    Veteran Member Weluckyfew's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103671#msg1036 71 date=1083385189
    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103668#msg1036 68 date=1083384770
    It was only a matter of time before something would happen here in the USA using his money and technology. Then everyone would be saying "Why didn&#039;t we remove Saddam from power?"
    I remember that question being asked after Desert Storm.
    And why didn&#039;t we remove him after desert Storm? because we know what chaos there would be and we didn&#039;t want to be responsible for a country that would be flirting with civil war. We purposely let large units of the Iraqi Republican Guard escape from Kuwait because we didn&#039;t want Hussein to be too weakened. Yes, we would have loved for him to be overthrown by a friendlier dictator, but we wanted an iron hand there to keep the country together.

    What happens in 1 year or 5 years when the Shiite South wants to leave and form their own country or join Iran? What happens when the Kurds try to form their own country, which will be HOTLY opposed by Turkey? These are the reasons they didn&#039;t remove Saddam last time. It&#039;s easy for us to defeat a country, the hard part is what comes next.

    <<<<98% if Iraqis probably just want to be left alone, are relieved that Saddam&#039;s goon squads are no longer officially around to abduct and &#039;disappear&#039; family members, and just want a chance to live their lives. >>>>

    According to a recent Gallup poll, some 71% or iraqis view us as occupiers, not liberators. So much for being greeted with wreaths of flowers.

    <<<Look, the dude was dangerous. He was flinging missles at our UN air patrols at least once a week before the war, which in it&#039;s self deserved a good stomping on. He had gas weapons and the technology to make it. It was only a matter of time before something would happen here in the USA using his money and technology.>>>

    Yes, he posed a threat, but he was being contained. Imperfectly, yes, but contained. He was NOT a threat that justified spending hundreds of billions of dollars, costing hundreds of American lives -to say nothing of thousands of wounded - and many more thousands of innocent Iraqi lives, and positioning us as global bad guy in such a way as to increase recruitment by the very organizations we&#039;re supposedly trying to stamp out.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103668#msg1036 68 date=1083384770
    Maybe you should know some things that the US media hasn&#039;t been telling you. Like this photo shows, there is some shit buried out in Iraq.
    I try not to read too much into the media anyway.

    I can&#039;t really make out what that picture is.... the "shit" which you call it, meaning you obvioulsy don&#039;t know what it is your self.... could be an old misile (sp) buried under the ground for all i know. They find those here from the world wars all the time. but who knows, neither of us really do.



    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103668#msg1036 68 date=1083384770
    Look, the dude was dangerous. He was flinging missles at our UN air patrols at least once a week before the war, which in it&#039;s self deserved a good stomping on. He had gas weapons and the technology to make it. It was only a matter of time before something would happen here in the USA using his money and technology. Then everyone would be saying "Why didn&#039;t we remove Saddam from power?"
    Maybe if i believed that, that was the real reason for starting this war then i would agree.

    I hate the terrorists and what happened on 9/11 was the most horrific incident i have ever seen.... but i don&#039;t think blowing up a country is justified, sorry. If you look at it like that, then you could say that the the arabs are justified for for the bombing and killings they are inflicting on innocent ppl, because of what the americans have done in the past. Or is it different because a war is considered "legal" ... oh but oops, this war wasn&#039;t actually "legal" was it? It was 2 men who went against the majority of their ppl and the UN who took it upon themselves to start this war.

    Seraya.


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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    It was disgusting and shameful. It just showed the world that the American Goverment are HYPOCRITES.

    We are "suppossedly" there to stop such things ( and worse) from happening not there to commit similar CRIMES.

    Done in jest or not it was a crime against humanity- I&#039;m sure that Sadamm&#039;s men were laughing as well when they did such things.

    Bush put our boys there dammit
    And now a year later they seem to be adapting to their enviroment all to well :&#039;(

    We&#039;ve got to vote Bush out of office- he is the real threat to national security. God help the next man who has to try and repair all of Bush&#039;s DESTRUCTION.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103687#msg1036 87 date=1083386378
    It was disgusting and shameful. It just showed the world that the American Goverment are HYPOCRITES.

    We are "suppossedly" there to stop such things ( and worse) from happening not there to commit similar CRIMES.

    Done in jest or not it was a crime against humanity- I&#039;m sure that Sadamm&#039;s men were laughing as well when they did such things.

    Bush put our boys there dammit
    And now a year later they seem to be adapting to their enviroment all to well :&#039;(

    We&#039;ve got to vote Bush out of office- he is the real threat to national security. God help the next man who has to try and repair all of Bush&#039;s DESTRUCTION.
    :::applause:::

    Tigerlilly. Very well said.

    Bush does need to go. But going back to Desert Storm (actually back when it was just "Desert Shield"), in 1990, this all could have been taken care of by GW&#039;s daddy. He left the mess for Clinton, and Clinton left the mess for GW. So he did have quite a bit on his plate when he took office. I voted for GW the first time around, but he&#039;s not getting my vote in November.

    That said though, I cringe when I think of how Al Gore would have handled 9/11. I&#039;m kind of glad GW was there instead.

    Anyhoo, I definitely hope that these troops do get punished for what they&#039;ve done. It was wrong, and they probably knew it at the time.

    This is unrelated of course, but when the ex hubby was stationed in Gitmo, things like this went on with the Hatian detainees on the base. I could tell you all stories, but I&#039;d be here all night.

    Things like this have gone on for years, in every related situation. I just think it&#039;s incredibly stupid to photograph it and put it out there.

    I still remain very supportive of our troops. They&#039;re risking everything to protect our freedom. But, just because I support them, doesn&#039;t mean I support the way they handle things, especially this incident.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    The soldiers who tortured the Iraqi&#039;s will be punished. To blame President Bush for it is ridiculous.

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    Veteran Member Weluckyfew's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ace_barker link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103699#msg1036 99 date=1083387748
    The soldiers who tortured the Iraqi&#039;s will be punished. To blame President Bush for it is ridiculous.
    Except that this is the sort of thing that happens when one group of people is given control over another, especially when the latter are violently opposing that control. President Bush entered us into a war with inadequate planning for the aftermath, and this is a symptom of the problems we now face. Soldiers who are getting shot and see their friend&#039;s legs blown off start doing things like this. Sad thing is I&#039;m sure a lot of these soldiers probably weren&#039;t bad people, they just succumbed to a lot of pressures and now they&#039;ll pay for it for years.

    One of the reasons war should always be the last resort is that aside from the dead and wounded a lot of soldiers are left with wounds far deeper and more subtle.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    I heard that on the news!! It absolutely disgusts me!


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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by seraya (london) link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103678#msg1036 78 date=1083385815
    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103668#msg1036 68 date=1083384770
    Maybe you should know some things that the US media hasn&#039;t been telling you. Like this photo shows, there is some shit buried out in Iraq.
    I try not to read too much into the media anyway.

    I can&#039;t really make out what that picture is.... the "shit" which you call it, meaning you obvioulsy don&#039;t know what it is your self.... could be an old misile (sp) buried under the ground for all i know. They find those here from the world wars all the time. but who knows, neither of us really do.



    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103668#msg1036 68 date=1083384770
    Look, the dude was dangerous. He was flinging missles at our UN air patrols at least once a week before the war, which in it&#039;s self deserved a good stomping on. He had gas weapons and the technology to make it. It was only a matter of time before something would happen here in the USA using his money and technology. Then everyone would be saying "Why didn&#039;t we remove Saddam from power?"
    Maybe if i believed that, that was the real reason for starting this war then i would agree.

    I hate the terrorists and what happened on 9/11 was the most horrific incident i have ever seen.... but i don&#039;t think blowing up a country is justified, sorry. If you look at it like that, then you could say that the the arabs are justified for for the bombing and killings they are inflicting on innocent ppl, because of what the americans have done in the past. Or is it different because a war is considered "legal" ... oh but oops, this war wasn&#039;t actually "legal" was it? It was 2 men who went against the majority of their ppl and the UN who took it upon themselves to start this war.

    Seraya.
    Makes me wonder if you read at all, Seraya, because I explained it was an illegal russian MIG with illegal french electronics equipment. And yes, I really do know what that picture is all about. It is about Saddam hiding weapons he should not have under the desert. Or maybe that is just a "poor man&#039;s airplane hanger." The source of the picture is a captian in the US army. You assume to much - it&#039;s a good way to get into arguments.

    A recent poll showed that the "majority" of people you speak of who oppose the war hovers around 50%. At the beginning of the war, the "majority" of the people you speak of hovered around 25% and less. It is hardly a "majority" of people who are against this war.

    Only two men? Hmmm... lets see who else is part of the coalition:

    Western Europe:
    United Kingdom
    Spain
    Portugal
    Denmark
    Norway
    Netherlands
    Iceland
    Italy

    Baltic States:
    Estonia #
    Latvia #
    Lithuania #

    Asia:
    Japan
    South Korea
    Singapore
    Philippines
    Afghanistan
    Kazakhstan
    Uzbekistan
    Azerbaijan
    Georgia
    Marshall Islands
    Micronesia
    Solomon Islands
    Mongolia
    Palau
    Tonga
    Thailand

    North America:
    United States of America

    South and Central America:
    El Salvador
    Colombia
    Nicaragua
    Costa Rica
    Dominican Republic
    Honduras

    ANZ:
    Australia
    New Zealand

    Middle East:
    Kuwait

    Africa:
    Eritrea
    Ethiopia
    Uganda
    Rwanda
    Angola

    Hmmm. Sounds like a whole lotta people to me.
    Central Europe:
    Poland
    Czech Republic
    Slovakia #
    Hungary

    Balkans:
    Albania #
    Macedonia #
    Romania #
    Bulgaria #
    Turkey
    Croatia #
    Slovenia #

    Eastern Europe
    Ukraine
    Moldova

    Looks like a lotta people to me.

    Given the UN is being found out as corrupt, right up to Kofi&#039;s son (Kofi is Secretary General of the UN), take a read:

    The UN is getting to be a bit of a joke. Take a read:

    PARIS The UN Commission on Human Rights elected Libya as its head Monday after the United States demanded and lost a vote against a country it has repeatedly condemned as a sponsor of terrorism.



    It is OK for you to speak of how you think the world is, but often times the facts go against belief.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POV's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by vegasvixen1 link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103569#msg1035 69 date=1083375150
    p.s. all of you please do me a favor....

    When one of you loses a family member because of the irrational acts of some raghead with a bomb strapped to his body please let me know if your views change or if u all of a sudden feel the same as me.
    Ok...Now, I am pissed off. For your information, I lost family in the World Trade Center 9/11 incident. That does NOT give the US the right to go to Iraq and treat those people in the way that they have been treated. It&#039;s disgusting and it makes our people no better than they are!

    Second...the people we should have been going "balls to the wall" for were in Afghanistan. NOT Iraq. Saddam was a terrorist to his own people. Iraq DID NOT BLOW UP THE WORLD TRADE CENTER!! So...you want to stand behind your no-brains, can&#039;t read, alcohol-psychosis president, then be my guest. I will not EVER stand behind him...nor anything that he does. The only support I will give our troops is the right to come home. I will not support them terrorizing, demoralizing, dehumanizing another race of people because of where they are and who they are.

    Right...the troops &#039RESSED LIKE IRAQIS&#039; for a laugh. And, they probably singled out people who looked like Iraqis for the "realistic" effect. You are a fool if you really think that that is what happened. You&#039;re probably one of those people who think that the treatment of the so-called "terrorists" at Gitmo is a joke too. Just the soldiers dressing up as terrorists for the annual Gitmo Rifle Security Company Annual Play.

    Look...this is the last time I am going to say this. Be mad at the "terrorists" as much as you want. It&#039;s not going to change anything. They are terrorists...and they breed...maybe clone each other. The fact is simply this: it&#039;s OUR government you should be mad at. They KNEW about this...They had INFORMATION that something on a scale such as this was going to happen. And they did nothing. Dealing with terrorists is an offensive job. You need to take the initiative and stop it before it happens. You don&#039;t wait around until 3 planes, and thousands of people go down before you stand in front of your friends, families, and fellow americans and proclaim the horror of what just happened. Before you get smart and do something. And, I&#039;m talking important changes. Not these stupid "hire some rent-a-cops and pretend that the security of the US is unstoppable" tactics. Security after 9/11 is still lacking in major ways...and the tactics that have been instilled are a joke.

    So, VegasVixen: I do not accept your criticism. I have read everything, looked at everything, and I MAKE MY OWN DECISIONS. I do not take anything that people tell me for face value until I can back it up with solid evidence. The Iraq war had gapping holes to begin with. Am I ashamed of the way that our country has handled things? I sure am! Am I ashamed that it is Americans who are splashed across the newspapers of every fucking country as doing unspeakable acts of terror to POW&#039;s? I sure am! Do I support our troops over in Iraq? I sure do! Do I support WHAT they are doing while they are over there? No, I don&#039;t. It is wrong and they are now just as bad as the terror they removed.

    End of discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103890#msg1038 90 date=1083432536
    what kind of important changes? And do you think if we (USA) took "initiative" before 9/11 that people would be supportive and think our actions were smart?
    The changes that were made to the security would (maybe) block terrorists from placing bombs by using suitcases. They have never tightened up the security for the rest of the airport. As human nature, as soon as the immediate threat has passed, people get lax and start to think that nothing will ever happen again. Right now, you could probably slipped undetected into the baggage handling area. If you are a terrorist, you would have thought ahead and gotten a fake security ID and maybe a vest to show that you may belong there. Or, you&#039;ll go in the middle of the night where there are even fewer alert security guards and do your damage then. They&#039;ve placed federal marshalls on some flights, but not all flights. They&#039;ve "alleviated" the problem by putting up all of the "security" measures that really have no real hope of stopping terrorists. Let&#039;s face it...once the terrorist gets to the airport, there is no way to stop them. Right? I mean, the 9/11 guys proved that...they used the plane as weapon of choice. Didn&#039;t set off any metal detectors. We know that our government gets "tips" of where and when possible terrorist action will occur. The problem is that they use the "wait and see" approach. It&#039;s true that we cannot humanly follow up on every single lead that comes in...but, as with 9/11, the ones that are REAL are more likely to come in from several sources and have solid "evidence" to back it up.

    If we would have "taken the initiative" before 9/11...who cares what people would have thought? We would have saved thousands of people...not every person that was killed in 9/11 was an american citizen...terrorists get their power from the fact that they have the "upper hand". No one does anything until the terrorists strike first. At the same time...terrorists have been around since the beginning of time. There are just some people who get joy from killing people and seeing/hearing the terror they cause. We are never going to completely stop terrorism. But, by being aware and acting on information that is deemed reliable, we can greatly decrease the scale of the incidents. Like the OK federal building bombing. If people would have reported suspicious purchases...or Columbine. People are so much more into Money than they are into the WHY&#039;s of a sitation. Later they say that they had a "bad feeling" but said nothing...after all, it&#039;s really none of their business and they paid in cash. The instructors for the aeronautical terrorists said basically the same thing. "They displayed questionable behavior, but hey...they paid in cash, in full. Who am I to question?"

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    I&#039;ve found that most arguments about the evils of the U.S. only work in a vacuum, that is, when the U.S. is compared to itself and no other nations or context are considered, and only when scattered facts are strecthed to create a very thin "complete picture."

    I could argue all day (and quite well) that the U.S. is evil and probably find plenty of things to talk about. I also think if engaged in an argument about the evils of the U.S. versus any of her historical or current enemies, a retarded eight year old could make the argument that her enemies are worse and defeat me.

    The anti-U.S. arguments I hear usually sound to me like a criticism of a police officer who just shot a criminal, with no mention of the fact that that criminal was busy slitting babies throats at the time.

    Get your heads out of that hole in the tree and look at the pretty forest.
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    omg, why is it so huge?!! lol lol

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    Default Re:Iraqi POV's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by vegasvixen1 link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103543#msg1035 43 date=1083369303
    IT seems to me that if you cant tell these pictures are the troops just fu***** around then maybe you should take a closer look before proclaiming how utterly embarassed you are of our troops or to be an american or whatever! If u cant tell those pics. arent legit then i dont know what to tell you. but in a time of war our boys over there risking their lives so that u can enjoy the freedom to post things like that about them need your support much more than u talking about how ashamed u are. Either support our troops and there efforts to protect u or keep it to yourself.

    ~I luv my Marine~
    The troops "just fucking around?" WTF?? No, its not just "fucking" around. They are doing the exact same shit the Iraqi&#039;s are doing to our POWs. Doesnt make it any better though.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Ease up on Vegasvixen. She&#039;s got her heart in the right place.

    However.

    Supporting the troops doesn&#039;t include BLINDLY supporting anything anyone does over there. You have to remember that this shit happens in any war. The saddest look i&#039;ll ever remember was the look of my grandpa when he told me about the cantine full of japaneese gold teeth he yanked out of dead men&#039;s heads during WWII. He had intended, at the time, to melt the gold into my grandma&#039;s wedding ring, but when the war was over he says he threw it into the ocean. Until the day he died he remembered that damn cantine. It haunted him. I could tell.

    Vegasvixen, sometimes people do things that are really fucked up in a time of war. There is a court marshal going on over these pics, so evidently someone thinks they are authentic. It&#039;s not "the troops" that did it, it&#039;s some asshole. That&#039;s all. War can bring out the monster in a human.

    Did they deserve it? Maybe. Maybe they deserve Melonie&#039;s, er, shock treatment... But that doesn&#039;t give some isolated officer the right to take ot into her (I guess) own hands to deliver it. We, as civilized people, are above that. Or we are supposed to be. It&#039;s not an indictment of "the troops" which you are so proud of (and rightfully so), i&#039;ll bet most of them are as disgusted by this as some of the posters here are.

    Look at it this way, the standard with which American and British troops USUALLY treat prisoners of war is WELL above the norm. Hell, they are COURT MARSHALLING the perps! When did the German army do that over enemy POW&#039;s? When did the north vietnameese? The North Koreans? The Japaneese?

    We have a hell of a military! It&#039;s even willing to admit it when it fucks up.

    Shit like this happens in war. There is no-one without stain.



    I see your point, though. But if you think those pice were staged, i&#039;m afraid you have another thing coming. There are no angels, not on this side of the grave at least.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POV's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by vegasvixen1 link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103543#msg1035 43 date=1083369303
    but in a time of war our boys over there risking their lives so that u can enjoy the freedom to post things like that about them need your support much more than u talking about how ashamed u are. Either support our troops and there efforts to protect u or keep it to yourself.
    I agree and dissagree at the same time. You can&#039;t extend the freedom of speech to one group while pissing on it at home. There is no such thing as freedom-of-speech-but-shut-up, it&#039;s all or little (Meaning that you can&#039;t shout fire in a crowded theater, or shout lies about someone). I agree that people SHOULD support the troops, but if they don&#039;t support the WAR (different thing) then it&#039;s their civic duty to speak up.



    Quote Originally Posted by vegasvixen1 link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103543#msg1035 43 date=1083369303
    ~I luv my Marine~
    Then your marine&#039;s a lucky guy to have such a tireless defender.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    <<<No, there you go - again. Melonie admits an emotional reaction in part of her felt like seeking revenge (or information) by torturing them, and I admit to gut reactions the day after we were attacked and you act as though we were campaigning for President on a platform of torture and destruction.
    She did not hook electric wires to anyone&#039;s balls, and I did not sneak into USAF headquarters to push a button of nuclear destruction. They did use real metal airplanes to kill real live people rather than venting on an Internet chat board. That in itself is one way we&#039;re different, but you are so wrapped up in your philosophy of American guilt you don&#039;t see that small distinction.>>>

    You&#039;re right, I apologize, I did overstate what you said - you were talking about an emotional reaction that passed - but the reason i reacted so strongly is that I have heard this point of view a lot in the last few years, from people who were not speaking out of temporary anger. On this board we have someone talking about "fucking towelheads", as if all Arabs (muslims?) are our enemy. Am I alone here, or have others heard people expressing blanket hatred, and the attitude that we can do whatever we want over there as long as it&#039;s in the name of protecting ourselves? I heard people (some of whom I knew and thought resonable before this) in the run up to the war expressing the opinion that we should just nuke Baghdad - how strong do you think that opinion would have gotten if Saddam Hussein actually had been behind 9/11?

    You&#039;re right, it was overheated rhetoric to say that Melonie was as bad as the terrorists, but Melonie spoke of part of her wanting to torture these people - we don&#039;t even know who these guys were. Maybe they were terrorists. Or maybe they were people trying to drive the Americans out because they were afraid that promises of democracy would not be honored. Or maybe they&#039;re people who hate the Americans because ten years ago we bombed them during the first Gulf War. Or maybe they were just in the wrong time at the wrong place.
    Melonie, if part of you can think of enjoying torturing these people then do you think you&#039;d be capable of it if the situation were a little more extreme? If you were over there and your buddies were being killed and maimed, do you think you might indulge that part of you? I don&#039;t say this to demonize you but to humanize those soldiers who did committ thesse acts. Sure, maybe some of them were just rotten sonofabitches, but maybe some of them were just like you, had that little part that got a hell of a nudge from the experiences they&#039;ve had over the past year.

    What scares me is when people start talking about our right to do anything we deem necessary to protect ourseles and out interests, even if those actions have horrible consequences..
    No, we don&#039;t fly jets into buildings. We support (in some cases install) brutal dictators who murder their people, we fire missiles and bombs that destroy our enemies with "some" colateral damage, we enforce a world order that keeps an oppressive foot on the throat of a lot of people economically, all in the name of our safety and our interests.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104053#msg1040 53 date=1083455694
    On this board we have someone talking about "fucking towelheads", as if all Arabs (muslims?) are our enemy. Am I alone here, or have others heard people expressing blanket hatred, and the attitude that we can do whatever we want over there as long as it&#039;s in the name of protecting ourselves?
    No you are NOT alone, not in the least. I am reading it here and seeing it in my day to day life as well. It&#039;s that Blind Sheep effect again.

    It would be funny if it weren&#039;t so ignorantly sad and even worse- dangerous.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    weluckyfew~

    Anyone can think of torture. Dreams of payback are a part of the human experience when things are done to us by an outside force. I often think of what might happen if Marvel comics &#039;The Punisher&#039; could have had a crack at those terrorist bastards on september 10th. Or maybe what Superman might have done on September 11th. Maybe it&#039;s a self defense mechanism. I dunno, I like comic books, so I think about things in thise terms.

    I don&#039;t think you shoud even blink at Melonie&#039;s reaction. It&#039;s knee-jerk, yes, but it comes from losing friends. Therefore it warrants some consideration. If her whole argument hinged upon then being Muslim, I cound see you having a point, but there are so many muslims out there who don&#039;t kill people that if that was her argument i&#039;d shoot it down in a second. Melonie doesn&#039;t have arguments that you can shoot down in a second, though. She makes you think. Her argument has to do with a certain ideology that some folk have.

    And I don&#039;t see Melonie speaking out of &#039;temporary anger" either. Her posts are generally as well thought out as her bust size. I don&#039;t usually agree with her, hell, most of the time i don&#039;t agree with her (hey, i&#039;m the loony lefty!), but in this case i must say that she&#039;s 100% right.

    It&#039;s one thing to say "I&#039;d like to hurt them" and another to say "I will hurt them."

    Don&#039;t blame Melonie just because she&#039;s human and has feelings.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104053#msg1040 53 date=1083455694
    What scares me is when people start talking about our right to do anything we deem necessary to protect ourseles and out interests, even if those actions have horrible consequences..
    It scares me too ! Big time !
    I mean gee, isn&#039;t that exactly what we call terrorism !?!
    How can those who support this war not see that ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104058#msg1040 58 date=1083456892
    weluckyfew~

    Anyone can think of torture. Dreams of payback are a part of the human experience when things are done to us by an outside force.
    It&#039;s one thing to think it as in Melonie&#039;s post , it&#039;s quite another to do it- and it&#039;s hypocritical as all hell to do it in the name of "freedom" as those soldiers did and basicaly Bush&#039;s whole Iraqi plan


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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    You&#039;ll have to name those consequenses in order to rile me.

    Myself, I think the mexican and Canadian borders are the biggest security threat the USA has.

    I approve of Canadian citizens entering the USA, I like Canadians. I approve of Mexicabn citizens entering the USA as long as they plan to either stay mexican citizens or go through the immegration process. Other than that, some nutcase nuke suicide-bomber could carry a chicago-destroyer bomb on their friggin BACKS!

    terrorism exists, we can either deal with it or ignore it, which would you rather do? (Reagan, Bush, and Clinton iggy&#039;d it, Carter had the hostage crisis or he&#039;d have done do as well. No-one did shit about black sunday but the israeli&#039;s).

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1 link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103908#msg1039 08 date=1083439030
    I&#039;ve found that most arguments about the evils of the U.S. only work in a vacuum, that is, when the U.S. is compared to itself and no other nations or context are considered, and only when scattered facts are strecthed to create a very thin "complete picture."

    I could argue all day (and quite well) that the U.S. is evil and probably find plenty of things to talk about. I also think if engaged in an argument about the evils of the U.S. versus any of her historical or current enemies, a retarded eight year old could make the argument that her enemies are worse and defeat me.

    The anti-U.S. arguments I hear usually sound to me like a criticism of a police officer who just shot a criminal, with no mention of the fact that that criminal was busy slitting babies throats at the time.

    Get your heads out of that hole in the tree and look at the pretty forest.
    Al Franken, who I don&#039;t generally like, had a great quote along the lines that some people love America like a four year-old loves his mother and some people love America like an adult loves a mate.

    Pointing out what America does wrong is not anti-U.S. The most patriotic thing you can do is to acknowledge the country&#039;s faults and try to improve it. the least patriotic thing you can do is blindly love it no matter what it does. If someone is looking for that, go try a dictatorship, they&#039;d be happy to have blind allegiance.

    Ace , your argument is that at least we&#039;re better than our enemy? Is that what America stands for, bad-plus-one? We&#039;re allowed to do anything we want as long as we don&#039;t go as far as Hitler or Stalin?

    About your cop analogy - whose throat was Iran slitting when we overthrew their government - Or Argentina? Or Iraq (we put the Baathists in power way back when) Or the Kurds (we&#039;ve sold them out so many times that Slate.com has on onrunning Kurdish Sell-Out Watch tracking whether we&#039;re going to do right by them)

    America is a great country, and has obviously done an enormous amount of good in the world. I love America, but i will not stop pointing out when it doesn&#039;t live up to its ideals.

    As stated before, saying that there is a reason many people hate us IS NOT the same as justifying that hate or excusing their horrible actions. When I, or many others, point out our shortcomings it&#039;s not to say "we had this coming" but to say "here is partially why this happened, let&#039;s make sure we don&#039;t do it again."


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    Default Re:Iraqi POV's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by vegasvixen1 link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103574#msg1035 74 date=1083375886
    If you guys want to believe what you hear or see on ARAB TELEVISION then be my guest....".you cant believe everything you hear" that is true now multiply that truth by 1000 when you are watching / listening to arab television in a time of war. you dont want me to insult anybody&#039;s intelligence on here right? well then why are you all acting unintelligent?
    There is really no need for insults Vixen. After all, we do live in a free country, and all of us are entitled to our opinions.

    The pictures are not fake or staged. The photos have been verified by the Pentagon, and they came to light because of the U.S. Army’s own investigation. All those involved have been relieved of duty (including the one star general in charge), and many will face court martial.

    In addition an internal U.S. Army memo currently circulating alleges even more abuse of Iraqi POW&#039;s has taken place, including U.S. guards urinating on prisoners and anally raping POW’s.

    We are Americans; we are supposed to be setting an example of how a decent and democratic country is run. The acts committed by the guards are illegal according to the USCMJ (United States Code of Military Justice) and the Geneva Convention. Soldiers are taught very early in their career how POW’s are to be handled, and this behavior is not acceptable in any way shape or form. It is shameful, and it has me very pissed.

    Accusing posters of being stupid was a low blow. Especially when you are the one who is incorrect.

    I know you are involved in this in a very personal way because of your husband, but it is possible to make your point without getting emotional and posting insults

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    My problem with ace_barker is that he seems to adhere to the "my country, right or wrong" philosophy. Speak up and he does his best to silence you. Not gonna happen. I&#039;m free. My Grandpa stopped the Nazis in their tracks to ensure that i could moan about the war in iraq. You can&#039;t both support the troops while pissing on the very thing they are out there protecting. It&#039;s a double standard.

    Weluckyfew~ I totally agree that it is our civic duty to bitch when we think something fucked up is going on. But we shouldn&#039;t be held to any party line. What we need to do is listen to one another, weigh our opinions against each others. MOST importantly, we need to listen to our consciences. Screw religion, religion got us INTO THIS MESS. We need to try to remember the fact that we are human, and so are *they*

    Whoever *they* are.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    EASE UP ON VEGASVIXEN. PEOPLE.

    Some people have differing opinions to you, deal with it.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103752#msg1037 52 date=1083396199
    Quote Originally Posted by seraya (london) link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103678#msg1036 78 date=1083385815
    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg103668#msg1036 68 date=1083384770
    Makes me wonder if you read at all, Seraya, because I explained it was an illegal russian MIG with illegal french electronics equipment. And yes, I really do know what that picture is all about. It is about Saddam hiding weapons he should not have under the desert. Or maybe that is just a "poor man's airplane hanger." The source of the picture is a captian in the US army. You assume to much - it's a good way to get into arguments.

    A recent poll showed that the "majority" of people you speak of who oppose the war hovers around 50%. At the beginning of the war, the "majority" of the people you speak of hovered around 25% and less. It is hardly a "majority" of people who are against this war.

    Only two men? Hmmm... lets see who else is part of the coalition:

    Western Europe:
    United Kingdom
    Spain
    Portugal
    Denmark
    Norway
    Netherlands
    Iceland
    Italy

    Baltic States:
    Estonia #
    Latvia #
    Lithuania #

    Asia:
    Japan
    South Korea
    Singapore
    Philippines
    Afghanistan
    Kazakhstan
    Uzbekistan
    Azerbaijan
    Georgia
    Marshall Islands
    Micronesia
    Solomon Islands
    Mongolia
    Palau
    Tonga
    Thailand

    North America:
    United States of America

    South and Central America:
    El Salvador
    Colombia
    Nicaragua
    Costa Rica
    Dominican Republic
    Honduras

    ANZ:
    Australia
    New Zealand

    Middle East:
    Kuwait

    Africa:
    Eritrea
    Ethiopia
    Uganda
    Rwanda
    Angola

    Hmmm. Sounds like a whole lotta people to me.
    Central Europe:
    Poland
    Czech Republic
    Slovakia #
    Hungary

    Balkans:
    Albania #
    Macedonia #
    Romania #
    Bulgaria #
    Turkey
    Croatia #
    Slovenia #

    Eastern Europe
    Ukraine
    Moldova

    Looks like a lotta people to me.

    Given the UN is being found out as corrupt, right up to Kofi's son (Kofi is Secretary General of the UN), take a read:

    The UN is getting to be a bit of a joke. Take a read:

    PARIS The UN Commission on Human Rights elected Libya as its head Monday after the United States demanded and lost a vote against a country it has repeatedly condemned as a sponsor of terrorism.



    It is OK for you to speak of how you think the world is, but often times the facts go against belief.



    Deogal,
    boy oh boy, that sure WOULD be an impressive list if it were truly a coalition with any depth or participation. A large number of these countries signed on to curry favor with the US, and in some cases they received benefits tied to their joining the coalition (would it be too much to call it a bribe?)

    And why would they go along? Why not - it cost them little. We're footing the financial cost, and as far as troops we have 135,000 in Iraq, Britain has 7,500 - the rest of the nations have a combined total of 14,500.



    HEY! Ace_Barker, when did you become Lestat??? I'm very confused.

    And thank you everyone for putting up with my at times overheated rhetoric. i really value this board because I'm surrounded by too many like-minded people in the real world and i like debating issues with people who are knowledgable and disagree.

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