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Thread: Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

  1. #101
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    See? Already something fishy about it. I hope, that whoever did it, gets a nice punishment. Firstly, for torturing the prisoners, secondly for raping the women (How the FUCK is that ok to do, regardless that its war?) and thirdly, for the possibility of being liars.
    Lets hope everything comes out soon. (If it was americans and bristish soldiers or the iraqi's lying) Whoever is responsible needs to be punished. Severely.

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    Veteran Member Isis's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexi link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104813#msg1048 13 date=1083626139
    I hope, that whoever did it, gets a nice punishment. Firstly, for torturing the prisoners, secondly for raping the women (How the FUCK is that ok to do, regardless that its war?)
    and we r supposed to be there to stop things like that not do them !!!!

    our goverment is acting like terrorist's themselves :'(

    Isn't there another way besides war ? I'm not very confident that we HAD to go to war..... war should be a last resort and I dont think it was veiwed that way by this administration AT ALL



  3. #103
    Veteran Member Weluckyfew's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Ace,
    great point, we don't know the full story, but obviously there was some abuse (soldiers have already been disciplined. Unfortunately the "private contractor" mercenaries are under no one's juristiction so who knows if anything will happen to them.)

    I don't think it says anything bad about our troops in general - you get 130,000 people together in a violent situation and things like this will happen. But that's the point, when you go war it's never as easy as "beat the bad guy." You open a whole can of worms that you have to deal with for years - that's why a lot of people were against the war. not because we thought Saddam was a great guy but because we thought the "solution" opened us up to more danger than the "problem."

    Lexi,
    I understand that you were speaking out of emotion, and I've been overly guilty of the same thing (I swear I never talk this much in person - lol)

    My point was just that people seem to be lumping the Iraq thing with the Daniel Pearl thing with the 9/11 thing - they're different issues. At the end of that horrific Daniel Pearl video that particular group of terrorists make their demands, and all the demands deal only with Pakistani issues (oddly enough one demand is that the US give Pakistan the F-16's they paid for but that we never delivered - how bizarre is that?)

    When we start lumping them together into one group then we oversimplify the problem, which means we oversimplify the solution, and miss the target. At least that's what I think.

    Oh, and to address the very few voices here who seem to have the bizarre notion that being against the war means being against the troops, one of the resons I'm against the war is because I can't stand the thought of what is happening to our men and women over there, especially when I feel they are being killed/wounded in a cause that is not helping this nation. (and beyond the dead and wounded and the emotionally scarred there are those who will lose their marriages, their civilian jobs, their houses because of the emotional and financial hardships of being away from home for so long)

  4. #104
    God/dess Lexi's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Isis, what did I say that confused you?
    I said a punishment. Whatever that means depends on what the government will do with them.
    So what do you suggest we do with the soldiers if they are infact, american and british ones? Pat them on the back and say, "Hey man...not cool... dont do it again" ??? Nope. They should be terminated from their jobs/etc... Thats a punishment. And if its the Iraqi's? Then what? I dont think its ok to impersonate anyone. Then again, I guess pretending to be a regular flying person on the plane, and then jumping out and killing pilots, and slamming in the world trade center doesnt deserve a harsh punishment?

    My point being, that whoever did it, needs to be punished. Obviously we all have opinions, and what you may consider a punishment may not be what the next person does.

  5. #105
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Lexi: I agree as well that whatever the outcome is, that the people be punished. HOWEVER, I would most likely have to question the story that the British government claims that the pics are fakes. I dunno...I've seen our government try to cover things up to make themselves look better. And the very fact that our government has already apologized for the incidents and promised they would "get to the bottom of it" kind of makes me question the story, anyways. But, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104721#msg1047 21 date=1083615769
    Madcap,
    first, congrats on the convertible, I love mine (of course living in Austin helps)
    I'm loooooooving it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104721#msg1047 21 date=1083615769
    As for doing anything to stop Hitler, let's not forget that nothing is black and white - Stalin, our good ally in that war, was responsible for killing more people than Hitler (although Stalin had more time) The gulags were second only to the Nazi death camps for cruelty and death. My point here is simply that we weren't fighting against Hitler's evil so much as we were fighting to save our own asses - there is NOTHING wrong with that, but let's not declare that we were altruistic.
    Stalin was on our side out of pure nessecity. Had Hitler kept his word, the soviets may well have ended up joining the Axis. No-one trusted them anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104721#msg1047 21 date=1083615769
    Dresden - if they knew about the Death camps they all deserved to be firebombed? The women, the children, the old men? There were Germans who tried to stop Hitler, they were slaughtered. Yes, the majority was for him, but many, many were not (including elements of the army who were sickened by the atrocities.)
    That's true, but my point was that their hands were far from clean. I did point out that firebombing of Dresden was indeed a crappy thing to do.

    OTOH, you also have to remember that the bombs of the era were dumb bombs. Their entire guidance system consisted of... gravity. Add this to the percentage of bombardiers who couldn't find their own asses without two hands and a compass, and you have a lot of collateral lives lost. British Lancasters made bombing runs into France, civillians lost their lives and they had nothing to do with the Germans!

    The main point is that if you have to firebomb Dresden to stop Hitler, you damned well firebomb Dresden. Had the allies balked at going all they way, the Germans might have WON the war (They were handing the allies their asses through most of the european war, really the only early real victory the allies had was the one the RAF won in the battle of Britain, Rommel pounded Patton in Africa). Had the Germans won the war, Jews, Blacks, Gypsies, et all... would probably be well on the way towards extinction (With Jews and gypsies likely already only a memory), Fascism would be par for the course, and the USA and her allies would be tributary to Berlin if not outright conquered. Their might well have been concentration camps just outside Chicago, Toronto, and Sydney.

    In war, all the way back to Leonidas and his 300 Spartans' day, civillians get killed. It's depressing, but I'd rather a few die so that the rest can have a shot at living to old age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104721#msg1047 21 date=1083615769
    As far Osama, it's important to get him, but let's rememeber it will change nothing - he's the figurehead/spirtual father of a movement, not some mastermind puppetmaster. he was smart (horrible and vicious and needs to be killed, but smart) and set up thios movement so that it would rely on no organizational structure. What makes it so dangerous is that it's all about encouraging extremists to act on their own, which means there is no "head" to chop off - yes, you have to chop with one hand, but with the other you have to starve the beast, or it just keeps growing. And these pictures of prisoner abucse are just the food it needs.
    And he IS crazy like a fox. This is the guy who planned two embassy bombings in africa, a thousand miles apart from each other, blown up within minutes of each other. This is the guy who the september 11th attacks start and end with. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, he's a hero in the fanatical parts of the arab world. He's out there thumbing his nose at the US and getting away with it, they love that. Taking him out will have a demoralizing effect on the people who DO want to kill the Daniel Pearls of the world.

    They need to get this guy. He's nearing the end of his life, we can't let him die unpunished. He'll be unstoppable should that happen. There will be a dozen Bin Ladins cropping up under every rock in the Middle east should we let that happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104721#msg1047 21 date=1083615769
    One disturbing trend I've seen in a few of the posts are people talking about "they" and "those people over there" as if an Iraqi equals an Iraqi insurgent equals a terrorist supporter equals a terrorist equals a 9/11 hijacker. Is it me, am I reading too much into pronouns?
    I see what you are saying, but it is a typically human reaction that dates back to when humans were clubbing each other with sticks and hunting cave bears.

  7. #107
    Veteran Member Santos's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104888#msg1048 88 date=1083634173
    I find it interesting how many are disgusted, sickened and ashamed of our soldiers and now it's coming out they were (possibly) under orders.
    Unfortunately Sapphire, a U.S. solider who does something illegal while under orders is still subject to military law. U.S. military personal are (or were) taught a number of things early in their enlistment. One is the difference between a “lawful” and “unlawful” order, and what a solider must do if issued an “unlawful” order.

    If a superior gives a solider an order that is unlawful, that solider has the ability (and responsibility) to refuse to carry out the order. Any solider who commits an act that goes against military code, even if ordered to do it, will be prosecuted if caught. As in civilian life, ignorance of the law is not a defense.

    And I can tell you from experience that what allegedly occurred at this POW camp was illegal by all U.S. military standards.

    The guards who are claiming they didn’t know better and were acting under orders are attempting to save their ass. They may have been under orders, but they should have refused the orders. That is tough for any solider to do, I know, but that is the reality. I have no sympathy for these guards, especially since their actions have now endangered the soldiers on the front lines.

    The Tom Cruise film A Few Good Men deals with this subject. At the end of the film, the Marines involved in the hazing death of fellow soldier were convicted, even though they were ordered to commit the act.


    From: U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10:

    89. Humane Treatment of Prisoners

    Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention.

    In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

    Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

    Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited. (GPW, art. 13.)

    90. Respect for the Person of Prisoners

    Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honor.

    Women shall be treated with all the regard due to their sex and shall in all cases benefit by treatment as favorable as that granted to men.


  8. #108
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexi link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104849#msg1048 49 date=1083629401
    I dont think its ok to impersonate anyone.
    Except Marylin Munroe. Impersonate her all you want (especially if you are wearing a dress and standing over a vent! Just make sure and not wear underwear, remember those pesky pantielines!).

  9. #109
    Veteran Member Weluckyfew's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    <<<Stalin was on our side out of pure nessecity. >>>
    Absolutely, I&#039;m just saying let&#039;s not characterize World War II as us taking a stand against evil - it was about saving our ass (again, nothing wrong with that) We always love to say how we stood up to the evil slaughtering madman - yes, we did, by allying ourselves with another evil, slaughtering madman. I&#039;m not saying what we did was wrong, just saying we should be honest about it.


    <<<you also have to remember that the bombs of the era were dumb bombs. >>>
    Understood, but again I&#039;m not talking about accidental killings or "colateral damage." We weren&#039;t after a target in Dresden (or Tokyo, or etc) our goal was to wipe out every man, woman and child in the city. That was our strategy, to anihilate the city in order to help break the German will - in Dresden we created a firestorm so fierce that flesh literally melted. Was it neccessary for the war? Maybe they thought so at the time, but it didn&#039;t end up helping.

    My point is (I think, we&#039;ve talked about it so long I can&#039;t remember), when we feel we need to we can be just as cold and ruthless as people who fly planes into buildings. What sets us apart, hopefully, is what we aim to do once we win.

    <<<we can&#039;t let him die unpunished. He&#039;ll be unstoppable should that happen. There will be a dozen Bin Ladins cropping up under every rock in the Middle east should we let that happen.>>>
    At this point he&#039;s already won on that issue. if he eludes us until he dies a natural death he stays a legend, and if we kill him he becomes a martyr. There are already Bin Ladens under every rock, and incidents like the Iraqi prisoner fiasco and Bush backing Sharon on his plan for the Gaza Strip are fueling the fire.

    Don&#039;t get me wrong, I think we still need to be hunting him down, but I just don&#039;t think it&#039;s going to make much difference whether we find him or not -- kill him he&#039;s a martyr, capture him alive and then you have to figure out what to do with him (good luck on that one)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105018#msg1050 18 date=1083657817
    <<<Stalin was on our side out of pure nessecity. >>>
    Absolutely, I&#039;m just saying let&#039;s not characterize World War II as us taking a stand against evil - it was about saving our ass (again, nothing wrong with that) We always love to say how we stood up to the evil slaughtering madman - yes, we did, by allying ourselves with another evil, slaughtering madman. I&#039;m not saying what we did was wrong, just saying we should be honest about it.
    The enemy of my greater enemy is my friend.... for now. It makes sense. I&#039;d have accepted Stalin too. That makes Hitler fight a two front war, a bad proposition under even the best conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105018#msg1050 18 date=1083657817
    <<<you also have to remember that the bombs of the era were dumb bombs. >>>
    Understood, but again I&#039;m not talking about accidental killings or "colateral damage." We weren&#039;t after a target in Dresden (or Tokyo, or etc) our goal was to wipe out every man, woman and child in the city. That was our strategy, to anihilate the city in order to help break the German will - in Dresden we created a firestorm so fierce that flesh literally melted. Was it neccessary for the war? Maybe they thought so at the time, but it didn&#039;t end up helping.
    Lets not forget the batallions of soldiuers and panzers (along with the new, at the time, tigers) that were always there. There was an army stationed there. Along with panzer and the new tiger tanks.

    Can&#039;t forget about that aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105018#msg1050 18 date=1083657817
    My point is (I think, we&#039;ve talked about it so long I can&#039;t remember), when we feel we need to we can be just as cold and ruthless as people who fly planes into buildings. What sets us apart, hopefully, is what we aim to do once we win.
    Sometimes. It depends on who is in office and where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105018#msg1050 18 date=1083657817
    <<<we can&#039;t let him die unpunished. He&#039;ll be unstoppable should that happen. There will be a dozen Bin Ladins cropping up under every rock in the Middle east should we let that happen.>>>
    At this point he&#039;s already won on that issue. if he eludes us until he dies a natural death he stays a legend, and if we kill him he becomes a martyr. There are already Bin Ladens under every rock, and incidents like the Iraqi prisoner fiasco and Bush backing Sharon on his plan for the Gaza Strip are fueling the fire.
    Not if we get him. If the legendary Bin Ladin gets caught and tried it might tell some other morons that you can&#039;t hide from the planet. When the majority of the human race is hunting you, you get caught.

    It&#039;s a message. Those are the important things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105018#msg1050 18 date=1083657817
    Don&#039;t get me wrong, I think we still need to be hunting him down, but I just don&#039;t think it&#039;s going to make much difference whether we find him or not -- kill him he&#039;s a martyr, capture him alive and then you have to figure out what to do with him (good luck on that one)
    Let him die and he&#039;s a martyr. Capture him and he gets tried before the world. In this case, the free world gets to make it&#039;s case. He dies of kidney stones or some dyalysis shit and he&#039;s superman. He&#039;s Elvis. He&#039;ll never die.

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    Veteran Member Weluckyfew's Avatar
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    <<<The enemy of my greater enemy is my friend.... for now. It makes sense. I&#039;d have accepted Stalin too. That makes Hitler fight a two front war, a bad proposition under even the best conditions.>>>
    OK...we&#039;re talking past each other here - I&#039;m not arguing tactics, I&#039;m saying that when people talk about World War II in altruistic terms it&#039;s bullshit, we fought the war for very selfish reasons --and there&#039;s nothing wrong with that, but let&#039;s not pretend it was some great crusade against evil. It was a great crusade against someone who wanted to kick our ass. Just like now when people say how great we are for fighting a war to liberate the Iraqis - we didn&#039;t fight it for that reason.

    <<<Lets not forget the batallions of soldiuers and panzers (along with the new, at the time, tigers) that were always there. There was an army stationed there. Along with panzer and the new tiger tanks. >>>

    uuuummm....no. Again, we&#039;re talking past each other, you keep speaking of this as if the civilian casualties were an accident - they weren&#039;t. The purpose of fire-bombing this city was to destroy it and kill its citizens, as part of a strategy to break the will of the German people. It was of so little strategic importance that it had not even one anti-aircraft gun. If you wish to argue that it was right to wipe out this city then fine, that is certainly the opinion of some scholars. But you can&#039;t say that the sole purpose of the raid was anything other than the city&#039;s destruction as a means of terrorizing the population (and I&#039;m not arguing that&#039;s a good or bad thing, just stating the fact.).

    <<<Capture him and he gets tried before the world.>>>
    Which would give him a wonderful forum to promote his message. What a dream that would be for their cause, their spirtual leader lecturing some world court about the sins on the West - it would make him a hundred times the symbol he is now.

    He&#039;s already won this round, even if we find him he&#039;s already elluded "the world" for almost three years. Again, I&#039;m not saying we shouldn&#039;t find him and kill him, I&#039;m just saying I don&#039;t think it&#039;ll matter. In my opinion the best thing that could happen would be for him to die anonymously so he&#039;d just end up fading away. Any definate ending just heightens his prestige.

  12. #112
    Veteran Member Weluckyfew's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Anyone else getting hate e-mail from Vegasvixen? She&#039;s like some Jerry Springer guest that works themself into a frenzy and just keeps swinging at anything that moves.

    Sad thing is she&#039;s too insecure and defensive to see that most of us agree with her about supporting the troops - I suppose it would be too much to expect her to admit she was wrong about those photos being fake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105030#msg1050 30 date=1083662434
    <<<Capture him and he gets tried before the world.>>>
    Which would give him a wonderful forum to promote his message. What a dream that would be for their cause, their spirtual leader lecturing some world court about the sins on the West - it would make him a hundred times the symbol he is now.
    Let him talk. The point is that the free world gets it&#039;s equal say. Osama doesn&#039;t get his free reign, he HAS TO shut it and let the opposition speak. A trial (Tribunal?) would kick ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105030#msg1050 30 date=1083662434
    He&#039;s already won this round, even if we find him he&#039;s already elluded "the world" for almost three years. Again, I&#039;m not saying we shouldn&#039;t find him and kill him, I&#039;m just saying I don&#039;t think it&#039;ll matter. In my opinion the best thing that could happen would be for him to die anonymously so he&#039;d just end up fading away. Any definate ending just heightens his prestige.
    Eluding the world for three years doesn&#039;t mean much, but eluding the world for the rest of your life means a lot. Al Capone didn&#039;t, John Dillanger didn&#039;t, Billy the Kid didn&#039;t, they all became folk heroes (Cuz they got caught and we know how they died), Osama will be elevated to folk hero as well, but none of them reached the level of Robin Hood (Who actually escaped capture his whole life, whether he was one person or a composite of many as some medevalists suggest). Robin Hood became a LEGEND.

    Is there even one person reading my words that has not heard of ROBIN HOOD??????

    We need to catch Osama. If he must be a folk hero, there&#039;s nothing to be done. We MUST stop him being a legend, though.






    I&#039;ll respond to the rest tomorrow. I&#039;m beat.

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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Holy fuckamoli. The pics could be fake, but they could be real. Who knows? I&#039;m not going to commit to either.... I suppose I&#039;m going to be sent hate mail now for not "supporting our troups". Face reality. Some people are capable of these acts.... and they are in Iraq right now fighting for our country. Whether the pic is real or not, I can bet that some of our soldiers have raped some Iraqi women. It goes on in war.... when these guys are trained to be violent attackers, that is what they become. It&#039;s not right to attack civilians, but some do it. To understand the mentality of someone fighting for their lives in war is impossible, unless you&#039;ve been there. Get upset about it if you want, but it&#039;s not going to change reality. That&#039;s just the way I see it.

    VV - I think it&#039;s ridiculous to take a stance and then because some disagree, you insult them. It&#039;s your way or the highway, eh? Last time I checked, you didn&#039;t know it all. These pics could or could not be real. It doesn&#039;t change reality when you insult people.


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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104888#msg1048 88 date=1083634173
    I find it interesting how many are disgusted, sickened and ashamed of our soldiers and now it&#039;s coming out they were (possibly) under orders. I&#039;m positive there is more to the story (as there usually is) and have learned a long time ago to not completely accept what I immediately see on the news or read in the paper.

    And as usual, there will be details and information that we will never be privy to.
    I find it funny that "civilians" are shocked that these soldiers may have been "under orders" to treat these POW&#039;s this way. It just doesn&#039;t happen that way. Of course, there will be those who say, "a soldier does not go against the orders of the capt., sgt., etc". There were probably quite a few soldiers over there that refused to "participate in the fun and games" and they were probably reprimanded (which we wouldn&#039;t hear about). The soldiers that did participate didn&#039;t do it because they were ordered to...they did it because it&#039;s what they WANTED to do and the "owners" let them off the leash.

    Of course there is more to the story, there always is...and you can be assured that you will hear the bits and pieces that will make the government look good (at least make them look like they are appalled and "taking care of business").

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weluckyfew link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105032#msg1050 32 date=1083663293
    Anyone else getting hate e-mail from Vegasvixen? She&#039;s like some Jerry Springer guest that works themself into a frenzy and just keeps swinging at anything that moves.

    Sad thing is she&#039;s too insecure and defensive to see that most of us agree with her about supporting the troops - I suppose it would be too much to expect her to admit she was wrong about those photos being fake.
    LOL...unbelievable...Well, not really, but still. It&#039;s the freedom of speech she so strongly stands behind, so shut up!! LOL

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    Veteran Member Isis's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexi link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104849#msg1048 49 date=1083629401
    Isis, what did I say that confused you?
    I said a punishment. Whatever that means depends on what the government will do with them.
    So what do you suggest we do with the soldiers if they are infact, american and british ones? Pat them on the back and say, "Hey man...not cool... dont do it again" ??? Nope. They should be terminated from their jobs/etc... Thats a punishment. And if its the Iraqi&#039;s? Then what? I dont think its ok to impersonate anyone. Then again, I guess pretending to be a regular flying person on the plane, and then jumping out and killing pilots, and slamming in the world trade center doesnt deserve a harsh punishment?

    My point being, that whoever did it, needs to be punished. Obviously we all have opinions, and what you may consider a punishment may not be what the next person does.
    HUH ??? I don&#039;t get it..... I was agreeing with your quote ???

    I&#039;m not sure how what I wrote could have expressed otherwise I&#039;ll have to go back and look....and 4 the record I think the soldiers who did this should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

    edited to add- I didn&#039;t say one thing about not punishing them

    in fact I compared them their actions to terrorists that we r supposed to be over there to stop- not emulate..... so where u got that I don&#039;t think they should be punished is beyond me......

    Geez- I&#039;ve don&#039;t think I&#039;ve ever been slammed by someone 4 agreeing with them b4






  18. #118
    Veteran Member Santos's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    There were probably quite a few soldiers over there that refused to "participate in the fun and games"
    Yes and the abuse came to light because at least two soldiers reported it to their superiors. And it was a U.S. solider who came across a CD containing the now infamous photos and handed it over to his superiors. It is good to know that there are some Americans who know right from wrong.

    From an article in the May 4 New Yorker:

    The abuses became public because of the outrage of Specialist Joseph M. Darby, an M.P. Special Agent Scott Bobeck, who is a member of the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division [said] “The investigation started after SPC Darby . . . got a CD from CPL Graner. . . . He came across pictures of naked detainees.” Bobeck said that Darby “felt very bad about it and thought it was very wrong.”

    The entire article is worth reading IMO

    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

  19. #119
    Featured Member sander8son's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    i just can&#039;t get into this thread. read 3.5 pages, and i see ive got 6.5 to go. no thanks. was gonna have a long meaningless pre-amble, but ive lost all desire to type anything... ok, on with the hate:

    heres my take. its a far cry to call this "torture". being stripped and positioned awkwardly or teased is nothing compared to what happnes in real american prissons.... instead of simulated anal, domestic criminals get the real deal!!! ;-) torture is inflicting physical pain, not clowning around.

    these people in US run jails in iraq ARE NOT TERRORISTS. they are merely iraqi national soldiers. so stop talking about terrorists. what sucks in there case is like nazi soldiers, they dont really have much of a choice. if you dont join the party, they&#039;ll kill ya. does that make them innocent? no, but they&#039;re not terrorists. what is a terrorist anyway? its jsut someone who fights against established rule really. i&#039;m quite fond of several terrorists personally(Washington, Adams, Revere, Jefferson, etc. etc.)

    that said, fuckem. ( i like to make completely contradictory sounding posts). anyway, if you want peace in the world its fairly simple to achieve. we can start by killing 6 billion people(my personal dream).

    yes, we need to get bush out of the office, but we sure as hell dont need kerry in office. but, the president is a meaningless position. the person doesn&#039;t matter. "but he picks the cabinet". No he doesn&#039;t, the party picks them, and calls all the shots. we need to overthrow our own government(goodlord, am i a terrorist? yeah, i guess).

    continuing to spurt out random thoughts, i hate americans, i hate the british, i hate the arabs and i hate the israeli&#039;s. you&#039;re all a bunch of ignorant brainwashed morons. ALL of you. you just get your misinformation from different points of view. you&#039;re all "evil" and stupid. do me and the world a favor and drop dead already. i&#039;ll kill the second to last person. you can trust me to off myself, after all i am destined for the seventh level of dante&#039;s hell. seventh being violent including violent against onesself.

  20. #120
    Veteran Member Rayleen's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105125#msg1051 25 date=1083696278
    HUH ??? I don&#039;t get it..... I was agreeing with your quote ???

    I&#039;m not sure how what I wrote could have expressed otherwise I&#039;ll have to go back and look....and 4 the record I think the soldiers who did this should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
    Isis ~ I&#039;m thinking Lexi just got your name confused with someones elses post ~ It happens sometimes when topics get several pages long

  21. #121
    Veteran Member Weluckyfew's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Sanderson, for all his intersting excesses, makes a great point - there are people suffering far worse in American prisons and many, many of them are there for non-violent drug offenses -- sorry, i digress ALOT on that point.

    Ther NYTimes has an interview with an Iraqi who says he&#039;s one of the men in the photo (and they explain why his story seems credible) I think it will come as a surprise to no one that he says his treatment was great and all the Americans were very friendly, right up to the point where he was transferred to that one area. In fact his previous treatment had been so great that he kept making a point of seperating the overwhelming majority of his guards from the few that did him harm.



    I would love to see this guy telling his story on Al Jazeera 24/7 - about the only thing we have to combat the damage done by those photos are the actual Iraqis who can testify that those soldier&#039;s actions were far, far from how the overwhelming majority of Americans treated them.

  22. #122
    God/dess Lexi's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105125#msg1051 25 date=1083696278
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexi link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104849#msg1048 49 date=1083629401
    Isis, what did I say that confused you?
    I said a punishment. Whatever that means depends on what the government will do with them.
    So what do you suggest we do with the soldiers if they are infact, american and british ones? Pat them on the back and say, "Hey man...not cool... dont do it again" ??? Nope. They should be terminated from their jobs/etc... Thats a punishment. And if its the Iraqi&#039;s? Then what? I dont think its ok to impersonate anyone. Then again, I guess pretending to be a regular flying person on the plane, and then jumping out and killing pilots, and slamming in the world trade center doesnt deserve a harsh punishment?

    My point being, that whoever did it, needs to be punished. Obviously we all have opinions, and what you may consider a punishment may not be what the next person does.
    HUH ??? I don&#039;t get it..... I was agreeing with your quote ???

    I&#039;m not sure how what I wrote could have expressed otherwise I&#039;ll have to go back and look....and 4 the record I think the soldiers who did this should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

    edited to add- I didn&#039;t say one thing about not punishing them

    in fact I compared them their actions to terrorists that we r supposed to be over there to stop- not emulate..... so where u got that I don&#039;t think they should be punished is beyond me......

    Geez- I&#039;ve don&#039;t think I&#039;ve ever been slammed by someone 4 agreeing with them b4





    LOL Im sorry if I read it wrong hun. It was way late when I did. When you quoted me, I thought you were being sarcastic saying something like, "so what? do we do the same thing?" I was tired and sleepy, and obviously read it wrong, considering how some people were getting all bent out of shape on here...
    So I wasnt slamming you, i thought you were saying I was being wrong for saying that those who DID do it shoulld be punished. (I admit it, and apologize)

    Ok I am ready for a spanking! :bends over in front of Isis:


  23. #123
    God/dess Lexi's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104829#msg1048 29 date=1083627486
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexi link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg104813#msg1048 13 date=1083626139
    I hope, that whoever did it, gets a nice punishment. Firstly, for torturing the prisoners, secondly for raping the women (How the FUCK is that ok to do, regardless that its war?)
    and we r supposed to be there to stop things like that not do them !!!!

    our goverment is acting like terrorist&#039;s themselves :&#039;(

    Isn&#039;t there another way besides war ? I&#039;m not very confident that we HAD to go to war..... war should be a last resort and I dont think it was veiwed that way by this administration AT ALL


    Isis, I agree with ya here. I totally read it wrong. LOL

    Uh oh, now I am afraid of Isis because I apologized and clarified it for her.

  24. #124
    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    I tried to stay out of this thread since it has way too many political ramifications involved, but.. what the heck.

    Overall, there isn&#039;t anyone here that can practically say if the pictures shown were real, fake, a hoax, etc.etc. Nobody also knows the true context, spirit, surrounding circumstance, cause->effect, or similar either. From face value, they look extraordinarily bad- but we all know that for all extremes, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

    I think it&#039;s also fairly difficult to empathize with what happens during war. While from a comfy chair out in sunny California, I can point my finger at those pictures and say, "Golly, that&#039;s bad! How horrific!"... I may actually be participating in the same thing after months of having bullets whizzing by my head, having lost several close friends, facing mortality on an hourly basis, or witnessing horrible atrocities. I don&#039;t like to think of what normal men/women are capable of when all humanity leaves the picture, but in war- there truly is no humanity.

    Well adjusted and emotionally fit individuals can be pushed over the edge. It&#039;s a simple fact. While some of us may pride ourselves in knowledge that we could never take another human life, if someone kills one of your children, family or loved ones, that cool rationality exits the picture. There is no justification for killing, but emotions rarely are rational or justified. Good people can do horrible things when pushed over the edge... things that defy their deepest underlying character. Terrorists feed upon this with knowledge that practical and rational people can be converted into cold blooded, heartless killers when they target 9-13 year olds, women and infants. It&#039;s not so much the act they performed they are interested in, it&#039;s the reaction/recoil they use to strengthen their cause.

    Before anyone makes any rash assumptions, I&#039;m not declaring this is the case with these pictures, but instead one of possibility of literally thousands that could be the case. As news/propaganda generally only reports about 5% for any given headline, the other 95% is left to assumption. Where you sit on the political fence is what dictates how you fill-in the other 95%. Hence the debate ensues.

    I can understand vegasvixen&#039;s frustration level. People here have a tendency to read 5% of a given post and blow that 5% out of context and turn it into something vastly different from it&#039;s original meaning in order to further their cause/opinion. It doesn&#039;t justify taking a mean and nasty stance, but I can empathize with the feeling. There&#039;s nothing constructive that can come from that sort of tactic, so it&#039;s better to just leave it be and move on, in my opinion.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

  25. #125
    Veteran Member Isis's Avatar
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    Default Re:Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexi link=board=1;threadid=8793;start=msg105408#msg1054 08 date=1083742296
    Ok I am ready for a spanking! :bends over in front of Isis:

    I don&#039;t know if I could bring myself to leave handprints on your cute little butt ..... but if u insist or just really like to be spanked well then I&#039;ll reconsider

    Thanks again for clearing that up !

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