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Thread: The exotic dancer debate

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    Default The exotic dancer debate

    The other day I was watching a program on exotic dancers with my brother. Now I must confess I find it a massive turn on that a girl has the confidence to strip either down to a g-string or naked on stage. Of course I like seeing a beautiful girl naked and I’d be lying if I said I didn’t, but what I like most of all is the confidence and the strong sense of I get that the girls, that they are free of inhibitions. However my brother, who I consider to be is less liberal minded than myself, remarked when I said that I would like to go out with a dancer that he would never consider going out with that “type” of girl. This led to a long debate over exotic dancers in which he argued a number of points, firstly that he would not go out with that “type” of girl, secondly that it was degrading to women, thirdly that it is immoral and finally that the girls who perform as exotic dancers hate it.

    I disagreed with him on all these issues, firstly on his point that he would not go out with that “type” of girl. My question was what “type” of girl is that? Thousands of girls perform as exotic dancers and like in every other job, every single one of them is different with their own distinct personalty and thus they cannot be pigeon holed as any particular “type.” I also questioned how he could say that he would never go out with someone who is an exotic dancer? My point was, what if a beautiful girl came up to you in a pub and you both hit off with the same likes and dislikes, would you later discard all that you had in common just because of your, possibly unfounded, perception of what exotic dancers are like.

    On his second point that it is degrading to women I was also in disagreement. I don’t consider myself a male chauvinist (I’ll let my readers be the judge of that), I totally disagree with the glass ceiling that exists in most occupations and am generally unimpressed with the majority of men’s failure to embrace the growing power of women in society. When it comes to dancers I don’t think that it is degrading for a woman to display her body, not only do I find it sexually attractive but personally I think the female body is generally much more beautiful than the male. Added to this I don’t see nudity as degrading I modelled naked for a friend of mine’s art project at university and I did not find getting naked for her degrading. If anything I think it works the other way around the dancers in clubs seem to have all the power they tease you and then take your money what‘s degrading about that (for them)? I also believe that when I worked in a department store for a pathetic four pounds an hour a few years ago the total disrespect with which some people treated me was much more degrading than having some guy stare in ore at some girl’s beautiful naked body.

    The immorally of stripping is another point I very strongly question. I am training to be a barrister and I know of numerous defence barristers who take great pleasure in getting obvious criminals off. Without getting into the debate over the right to a fair trial which I accept, I think it highly immoral to relish in the release of someone who you know full well is guilty, often of horrific crimes. My point being that in a great number of what the general trend of society would term as “respectable” professions there is a lot more immorality than there is at any gentlemen’s club. I fail to see how a girl showing off her body is in anyway immoral, if anything it brightens up the lives of anyone who is fortunate enough to witness it (trust me few people can say the same about their trip to their solicitor). Then there is the so called biblical side to morality. To my knowledge there is nothing in any of the religious texts about nudity and how evil it is supposed to be, although there is a large amount about being judgmental.
    When I was at university I studied history and large amount of the move towards sex and the naked human body as evil was actually during the medieval period where religion, in Europe especially, was being used, very much as it is in the Middle East today, as a tool of control.

    Finally this is a question I cannot myself answer as I am not an exotic dancer, do the girls that perform all hate it? My opinion, possibly mistakenly, is that as with any job some of them do it just for the money some of them actually quite enjoy it. I must confess when I modelled nude for my friend I actually quite enjoyed it, being the object of desire for her and a couple of her friends was quite a confidence booster.

    I would be very interested to hear what any dancers or anyone else for that matter thinks of this, sorry it gets quite deep but I have only been to a gentleman’s club once and I found it a good night out and pretty harmless. So with this in mind I really can’t understand why some people make such a big deal out of those that work at these clubs

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    Featured Member CrescentLuna's Avatar
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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    I think you're dead on.. there are some girls that hate the simply dancing nude aspect. But in my opinion, they're a rarity. I think we have a poll on here somewhere about what dancers dislike in this industry, and more frequently it's the fluctuating income and having to deal with people like your brother rather than the objectification that bothers them. It isn't just finding people to date, say the girl was trying to find a babysitter, someone like your brother might find it "enabling their immorality" to agree to babysit. Some girls really like dancing naked and charming strangers, and on occasion being topless psychoanalysts, but I don't think any of us here would do it for free.
    You might look through the feminism vs. stripping thread on here, too, to gain more perspectives about how our women reconcile being strong and independent while, basically, doing work as sex objects. Personally, I think if you have a strong sense of self disconnected with the industry, it's okay to be a sex object on occasion.
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    Every single thing I've never known"

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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    Forest, to accurately address your points requires acknowledgement of the fact that there are basically three different types of clubs, and that dancers working in the different types of clubs face different customer demands, different work environments, and different experiences.

    First there are the upscale "show" clubs. These are usually well managed and professional in their treatment of dancers and customers. "Show" clubs also operate under a "show business" business model, which emphasizes appearance and de-emphasizes contact between customers and dancers. "Show" clubs also position themselves to attract well educated, high earning, upscale customers. Therefore girls able to work in these clubs generally enjoy every minute of it, especially if they are well treated by management, earning four figures per night, and being treated with respect by 'gentlemen' customers. Unfortunately, perhaps only one dancer in 10 has a shot at being hired at a "show club".

    Next comes the "neighborhood" clubs. These are often individually owned and less than professionally managed. "Neighborhood" clubs often operate under a "companionship" business model, where the girl augments typically blue collar customers' 'having a few drinks at a bar' experience. "Neighborhood club" dancers usually have poor earnings potential compared to "show" clubs, are not always treated with respect by drunk blue collar customers, etc. Thus many "neighborhood club" dancers develop attitude problems and/or wonder if it's worth shaking their boobies on stage and putting up with blue collar customer bullshit for little more income than they could probably be earning at a straight job.

    The last category is "high contact" clubs. These can be both individually or corporately owned, and can be well managed or disastrously unprofessional. The business model these "high contact" clubs operate under usually boils down to selling simulated sex. Customers at "high contact" clubs can span the range from nearly broke to very upscale, but they all share the characteristic that they are much more interested in touching dancers than merely looking at them. Even though the earnings potential in "high contact" clubs approaches or exceeds the earnings potential of "show" clubs, many "high contact" club dancers wind up eventually hating their job because of having to constantly fight off grabby customers, having to constantly deal with propositions for sex from customers, being thought of as a piece of merchandise by customers or club management etc.

    Obviously there are exceptions to the above. Also, the dancers who typically post at Stripperweb include a disproportionately high percentage of "show club" dancers.

    Due to a number of factors, many of which originate with politicians and the media, dancers generally have inherited a stereotype image with the general population of being poorly educated, thieving, drug addicted whores. Even though virtually every "show club" dancer and the majority of "neighborhood" club and "high contact" club dancers do not fit this stereotype, they will still be affected by it - family member reactions, cop/judge/jury reactions, prospective employer/lender reactions etc. Being unfairly treated according to the hollywood stereotype is a demoralizing factor which virtually every dancer must face.


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    Member Samantha_Ray's Avatar
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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    Hey there,

    I think you are bang on as well, I love my job and I also look at it as I was born naked so what's the problem? Just means that I am comfortable with myself! I also love the sense of power I have from being onstage, you just don't necessarily get that in personal relationships sometimes!

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    Veteran Member Nina77's Avatar
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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    I work at a full contact club- at first I wasn't sure I'd like it- but I LOVE it! I think it's so much easier to sell a dance than at the NO-contact clubs. When I started dancing I said "Just for a few years to pay off school." Now I'm thinking "Even when I finish school, dancing is what I want to do!" So I'll just keep dancing and going to school, and then when I do get sick of dancing- I hope to have my masters by then. But I really do enjoy dancing! I find nothing wrong in making a career out of it while you can- it's a short-lived career, why not enjoy it while you can?

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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest03nm link=board=27;threadid=8932;start=msg105510#msg105 510 date=1083780068
    firstly that he would not go out with that ?type? of girl, secondly that it was degrading to women, thirdly that it is immoral and finally that
    Something I noticed in your post that I found quite funny. You should confront him about the hypocrisy of his comment here. I find it quite interesting that someone would comment about how being an exotic dancer is immoral and yet here he is, watching a show about exotic dancers. Isn't that, by how own logic, immoral? Hmmmmmmm... It's like the same thing I hear from dancers all the time about how customers will ask them, "why is a girl like you working in a place like this?" and the obvious response is, "for the same reason you are here" or "Well, why are you in here then?" etc. Just odd.

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  7. #7
    tampafldancer
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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    also, isn't it immoral to judge someone by their profession?
    What makes you think we would want to date someone who was so close minded? We don't care if he doesn't want to date us. The chances of that anyway are prob. slim to none!

  8. #8
    tampafldancer
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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    was, i mean "is."

    Also, i had a guy come into the club the other day preaching the same thing that your brother has said. I asked him why he paid the cover and is supporting this kind of "lifestyle," and he was speechless...

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    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    There is one quick way to deftly illustrate how stupid are deductions and 'logic" from people like your brother: repeat it and substitute their own profession.

    "I dated an accountant once, years ago, and I know exactly what they're all like."

    "I don't know about military men. I mean, to sell yourself for four whole years? I don't know what I think of people who voluntarily become slaves. I bet they don't have very good self esteem."

    "The last restaurant I went to, the chef gave me a free salad and an extra steak. Why don't you?"

    "I've heard that people in insurance are easy lays if you buy them some crack. So, how 'bout it?"

    The usual first reaction is to get offended by my all-inclusive and moderately derogatory remarks. Then the lightbulb turns on and they realize that my remarks were no more insulting (or accurate) than their own.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    I think your be a great barrister with arguments like that. To answer your question do some dancers enjoy stripping off, hell yes. I live with three other dancers and we all like it, the money is great, the hours are flexible and it is a major turn-on playing the fantasy figure. Yeah some girls do it just for the money but I think that if you don’t enjoy it your never likely to be any good at it.
    A couple of things I’d also add are that although I do fully nude, most girls on the beach now wear nothing but a string, I am only going one further.
    Also a totally agree with your point on type, what the hell type of girls does he think we are? Crack smoking prostitutes? My girlfriends and I are all university graduates who just don’t want to get stuck in the boring 9 to 5 routine with a sexist boss telling me blond jokes. In fact only quite recently a law firm got sued for £1 million because some boss was being a sexist prick and even pulled on some girl’s g-string whilst she was at work. I have never experienced anything like that at the club I work at.

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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    Hey Forest,

    I think the only points your brother made that could be challenged would be the degrading/immoral aspect. Anyone with strong (religious) beliefs in the sanctity of the human body may feel that way about stripping. I know people who do and believe me, I'm fine with that. What I am NOT fine about there is when people force these views down my throat by sayin it IS immoral/degrading other than saying that personally, THEY find it immoral/degrading. Big difference there. I am open minded enough to let others' views be expressed, but not in a manner that will threaten me. Please let me make up my own mind on the subject.

    But to make comments with no evidence e.g. we ALL hate our jobs is just plain stupid. I'm sure if I were to become a technician, I'd hate my job, but it does not mean that every other technician does too. He should really stop categorising people; this is what gives rise to stereotypes. He needs to realise that this is very primitive and unrealistic thinking.

    Also like you, I posed nude for art before. I loved it, and was not ashamed. I met a girl at a summer party who recognised me from art class and after we spoke my friend was like, ''Aren't you embarrassed? She's seen you naked before!''. Ha! No way was I embarrassed. I love my body too much! Tell your brother that the female form is nothing to be ashamed of.
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  12. #12
    tampafldancer
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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    Out of pure curiosity, may i ask what your brother does as a profession?

    Lets switch things up!

    I am never one to judge someone unless i am judged first!

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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    lilith...that was great :laugh:

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    Featured Member Prester_John's Avatar
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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    Quote Originally Posted by DancerWealth link=board=27;threadid=8932;start=msg105594#msg105 594 date=1083790019
    Quote Originally Posted by Forest03nm link=board=27;threadid=8932;start=msg105510#msg105 510 date=1083780068
    firstly that he would not go out with that ?type? of girl, secondly that it was degrading to women, thirdly that it is immoral and finally that
    Something I noticed in your post that I found quite funny. You should confront him about the hypocrisy of his comment here. I find it quite interesting that someone would comment about how being an exotic dancer is immoral and yet here he is, watching a show about exotic dancers. Isn't that, by how own logic, immoral? Hmmmmmmm... It's like the same thing I hear from dancers all the time about how customers will ask them, "why is a girl like you working in a place like this?" and the obvious response is, "for the same reason you are here" or "Well, why are you in here then?" etc. Just odd.
    That argument wouldn’t necessarily work. Some one reading "Mein Kampf" wouldn't necessarily mean that that person espouses the beliefs in it.

    Passive viewing of a show about exotic dancers does not constitute tacit approval of same.

    Forest - I have found that people who have the attitude of your brother pretty much are set in their ways, and their ways have been influenced and formed not by actual experience but by hearsay and perception of reputation (both their own and dancers in general). You could present every and all rational arguments to refute his position, and even if he begrudgingly acknowledges that he is wrong, he still wont feel it inside, and his overall attitude wont change by it. The only thing that would change it is experience, possibly over the long term.

    One would hope he does change. People cling so fiercely to their beliefs because they form huge parts of their identity and self image. In my years of bartending, I have seen far too many people argue to their blue in their face trying to change someone’s attitude/beliefs. It almost never works because of that, no matter what evidence is present to the contrary.

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    Member Lemuel's Avatar
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    Default Re:The exotic dancer debate

    The whole subject seems to be pretty well picked over except for one little thing I noticed.

    Did you really just list Barrister as a respectable profession?

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