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Thread: What would any of you do???

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    God/dess Gynger's Avatar
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    Default What would any of you do???

    I"m quite bothered. I am friends with another dancer in this town I live in that does not work with me at the club I work at. She and I have known eachother for five plus years.

    Recently, she and her hubby split up-he had big issues-internet porn (not that there is anything wrong with that), but I'm talking like young girls (legal) but still young. Not being able to keep reality and fantasy separate-thinking women are all like what he sees in porn etc.

    So, my friend tells me that he quit paying her support and now she is going to turn her two children over to the State welfare system because she feels that she can no longer care for them. I try and giver her suggestions, and she says that she can't keep up with the child care payments on top of the rent, and everything else, and she does have a regular job on top of dancing four nights per week.

    This has been bothering me all day. I'm trying to understand this, but at the same time, I want to hit her upside the head.

    Has anyone ever heard of a mother giving up her children on purpose?

    I'm not even sure I can remain friends with her if she does this, I keep telling her that she is really messing with her kids' lives and that there are options, and she is so adament that there is no choice.

    I don't understand this mentality of thinking.

    Am I wrong for being upset with her?


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    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    From your description, I don't think I'd be able to remain friends with her either.

    I know plenty of women here, in a region where the cost of living is one of the highest in the country, that are able to work even crappy fulltime Walmart check-out jobs AND part-time students, yet survive as single moms of two children without any form of outside support.

    The question is- she's dancing 4 nights a week AND working a regular job... where IS her money going? It's sounds more like a case of living at quality of life X and unwilling to notch back a few with her children as the deciding factor. She's using her loser husband's lack of support as the rationality for it when the truth likely remains elsewhere. She's adamant to insist that there is no other choice simply because she's swimming in hundreds of them right now, but doesn't like the personal sacrifice involved in any of them.

    I don't think you are wrong for being upset with her. There are two lives outside her own involved here and therefore of greater importance. She's basically putting herself over the lives of those two children, which is exactly what that loser husband has also done. I consider them both victims of abandonment and it saddens me to hear such things.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

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    God/dess Malibu's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    Polecat, you said it all.

    First of all, I will try not to pass judgement because I do not know her situation at all. But to turn your children over due to a disagreement you have with your husband without trying to look at other options sounds very selfish. It sounds like she's looking for the easiest route in which to maintain her lifestyle without having to bear down to help support herself and her children in the worst case scenario.

    That being said, it is not only her. What about the father? Doesn't he want to look after his children too? Has she discussed their children with him or are they both willing to give them up? If it's the latter, that is terribly sickening. I could not be friendly with anyone who did that. The last thing that should happen is for them to create a needless situation where the children are left feeling disowned.
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    She is being irresponsible and taking the easy way out. She is obviously selfish in the extreme. I'd be upset with her too.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Member NikkiHurst143's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    I think it's completley the wrong way to go about things, but i mean who knows maybe its in the best interest of the kids, i f she can no longer support them and has the attachment level where she feels she can just give them away maybe they would be better off, i was raised never meeting my real mother until the age of 15 and i had a great life.. compared to what i know i would have after meeting her... to answer if u should be friends with her or not that depends if u truthfully are close to her i'd alk to her about getting her priorities straight before u just stop being friends with her, mayybe u can change her mind, and if it is for the better interest of the children then i wouldnt be mad at her,, but truthfully i dont know thats a toughy

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    What about her parents? What about his parents? Most grandparents I know would gladly take the kids in a situation like this rather than let the state have them. I agree with the others, is she just gives them up, she will be scarring them for life.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

  7. #7
    Pamela
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    I have to say working at the hospital i hear and see some children like this alot. You have to consider, she has alot on her plate....Can she be mean towards her children? Is she the kind of person who may "lose it"?

    Maybe she does not want to hurt herself or her children, or have to take away "good" that they may have now, if she herself is struggling.

    The first route would be family, but that leads to problems if the decide they want custody.

    Many things can happen. I hope she has a good head on her shoulders. But i have heard of mothers who lose husbands, and start to lose self esteem, money and so on. This may make life very hard on the children.

    Gosh to not sound strange.....But some women will kill their children in some of these cases. She is telling you she can't do this right now, and needs help.

    Don't stop being a friend, support her with being a good friend, and hope that all will work out fine for her and her children.

    Here in Florida we have a law that says if you feel you can't/dont or want your children or may hurt them, you can turn them over to our hospitals and fire stations. Lots have used this method. No charges. The state then has custody.

    I wish her luck.

    Pamela


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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    how very sad. I think I would be upset too but even more so I would be extremely upset that dad is being a deadbeat or that any grandparents are unwilling to help.

    I've never known anybody to give their kids to the state.

    What about subsidized child care? Cheaper rent?

    It sounds like she's already made up her mind though. Where is the rest of the family? I'm suspecting there isn't any and she is completely overwhelmed. A very sad situation indeed.


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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    I don't know if I would stop being her friend. Although you are not involved, you are taking the events in the woman's life extremely personally. You may think that she is being very "non-chalant" about this, but until you get into her shoes, you just will never know how or why she is doing what she is doing. She may be accustomed to a certain way of life with her husband (and who knows how many bills that she has) and is not sure how to fix any of those situations. Have you suggested bankruptcy if the bills are the reason? Is she having issues with drinking or drug use? I know this is a long shot, but have you offered to help her with the kids? Can you help her with the kids? Child-care does get extremely expensive, and with multiple kids, it can be almost twice as much as a rent/mortgage payment.

    Also, I would strongly encourage her to visit a counselor. Someone who is completely objective and can offer her advice, not only about her kids and money situation, but also about how to go after her husband. And, just because she has a dancing job, does not mean that she's "blowing all of the money". Sometimes when you are stressed out, you do not do as well at work. Working a full-time day job for $5.50 an hour and making $400 a week dancing, paying rent, food (especially for growing kids), clothing, car payments, insurance, child care, etc, etc, etc. I can understand why she is feeling so overwhelmed.

    Instead of judging her or threatening to end your friendship because of the decision that she may make; I would suggest being a friend and helping her in any way that you can. Sometimes when someone is so imeshed in a situation, they don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. Be that light for her.

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    Featured Member NikkiD's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    It's a cop-out! Point blank. Any state would rather give financial assistance for things like child care than take the child into custody.
    As a parent, I can understand the burden that it can be to single handedly take on raising children and taking care of the bills and the house, HOWEVER, I would do anything, and I do mean ANYTHING that I had to do to make sure that my family was safe and taken care of. That is a guarantee that a mother would not have turning her children over to someone else.
    We've all heard the horrors that foster care can sometimes be, ranging from abuse to neglect, among other, more horrible things.
    I think most every parent, especially single ones, have moments that they wish they could have an easy way out, but to actually follow through isn't fair to those kids, and that's the most important issue here!!


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    God/dess erotictonic's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    I can't judge whether this is just her being selfish, or whether she honestly can't care for her children on a mental level. I don't believe she is unable to due to finances; there are probably things she is not telling you. Does she seem out-of-sorts? Maybe she just wants to start anew and live her life sans the children - extremely selfish and unloving. Maybe she is in no mental capacity to be raising children and she knows it. Deciding to keep her as a friend really depends on her motives, which I can't decide on from these few facts. The fact that she is lying about her financial state, which she must be since she is dancing with another job too, and we all know people in worst financial shape who are raising their children, does not look too promising.

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    God/dess Gynger's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    I guess I should add more details here. My friend is in her early 30's... she has had issues with alcohol, and the dad is pretty much out of the picture altogether because combined with alcohol, she has abused prescribed medication due to an accident that she was in over a year ago.

    The children are 10 and 5, the eldest being a girl and yes, I have seen her get angry with her children over little things. I've offered to help her, even so much as telling her that instead of making such a rash decision (that she might regret later) to quit dancing or quit the day job, get some assistance and if needed go as far as filing bankruptcy because she is always complaining about how much debt she has.

    I haven't noticed anything new or big purchases, and the club she works at is more stage oriented than lapdance oriented, and I have seen her work and I know that she brings home part time from the club around $600 or more for two to four nights of work. Her day job she is making $6.50 per hour.

    Daycare here for full time care for a child that is not in school is $400 per month, and for an afterschooler it is $285 per month. So, basically the money she makes from dancing pays for her childcare. When she works at night, she will usually wait until the children are asleep and then a neighbor will come over and stay with them until she returns home.


    I'm not sure her parents will help her, and I'm not sure about the other set of grandparents, but I did bring this up to her yesterday. At this point, I'm considering taking them for a while just to give her a breather so that she has some time to think about things.

    She's never been one to be selfish, but I am seeing some of those signs as well.

    Coming from a bad home as a child, I hate to see children suffer because of their parents mistakes.

    Thank you all who posted. It help sort out what I need to talk to her about.


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  13. #13
    Pamela
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    Thanks Ginger,
    a change you see in her personality probably shows stress. She needs support and friends now, not to be judged. I hope she will get threw this ok. And child support? Also she makes fairly good money (at least in my area to qualify for finacial aid, unless she was pregnant.) at this point. Public housing would be an option in Florida i know.

    Good luck hun,

    Pamela

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    Member oceana's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    Hi Gynger,

    It is good that you are there for her and you should stay like that.But don't absorb the emotions for your sake. Tell your friend firmly that you will help her but she has to help herself as well. So you can stay her friend otherways this situatiuon can become a burden. try to see if she makes some positive steps and incourage her in that.
    your friend is desperet right now and she can make choices that can hurt her. Try to incourage in her the love that she has for her children remind her that every day. Even alcoholic mother is a MOTHER that loves her children. This mother's love can help her to make it.Tel her how wonderfull these kids are and how much they love her no matter what...
    I know two mothers who give up the children to there father and last costudy of their children. I didn't understand it. But did'nt judge it eather.Then I become a single mom and was in the midle of bad separation....It is very hard. in that time I could "sort of" feel why some mom wants to give up...But the LOVE for my kid was stronger and I am happy I made it. I am single mother I danced I went to school and I see my daughter every day and I can say : I am making it! And I love my daughter!
    I hope it works out
    let us know what happened
    "When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it seems like two hours that's relativity." -- Albert Einstein



  15. #15
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    Hey girl -
    This is such a tough one. I kind of have mixed feelings on the issue.
    One hand, being a mom, I could never see giving my child up for anything and would do whatever it takes to be the best mom I could be (financially, mentally, emotionally).
    On the other hand, when I moved here to Jersey, we lived at the beach, but my bf's job was an hour away so we had to relocate.
    My mom was living at the beach, so while we were up here house-hunting, etc, my son stayed with her for 90% the summer so he would have her stable home as opposed to staying with me in a temporary, corporate complex. Fortunately it was summer and she lived 3 blocks from the beach, so he didn't mind! lol
    That being said, sometimes single parents need some help in one way or another and at times, it can really get to you. I would imagine working all the time and then devoting the rest of your time to your kids has got to be tough, especially if you are doing it alone.
    Your offer to her to take them for awhile may help her out. Maybe a long weekend camped out on the sand alone somewhere could do her good and change her prospective on the whole situation.
    Unfortunately, a good friend and listener are the best we can be sometimes and sometimes it doesn't feel like enough.
    Good luck to you (and her).
    ~ Danielle

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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    Quote Originally Posted by Gynger link=board=27;threadid=9136;start=msg108290#msg108 290 date=1084354017
    Am I wrong for being upset with her?
    Are you wrong to be upset with her? Absolutely not. Your reaction is completely normal and it is abnormal for a woman to willingly part with her children.

    But I won't pass any judgement on your friend. People do what seems right to them at the time. All I can think is that I am thankful I am not in her position. It must be tough. Maybe she just doesn't have the maternal instincts that a normal woman does. Or maybe she is just having a temporary crisis and needs some time to and help to see things differently.

    What it comes down to are you close enough friends with her that you'd be willing to do something (reasonable) to help out, and is there something (reasonable) you can do that will help out? By reasonable I mean something short term that would help her see things clearly. Not that you should become permanently responsible for this woman or her kids.

    Sadly I can't help you with either. Only you know what your willing to do for her, and I have no idea what it is that a woman in her position needs right now. I don't know if she needs some time alone (e.g., babysit her kids for a weekend) or time with her kids (e.g., go with her and her kids to an amusement park for the day so she can experience them in the context of something other than being a caretaker). My gut feeling is the later would do her more good, some experiences with her kids that are positive and not just more of the "day to day grind" but I am not a woman, I really don't know for sure what she needs.

    Good luck,

    Darren




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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    I don't know what I'd do if I was in your shoes Gynger. I do know, that if I was in your friend's position I'd first cut out all unnecessary expenses. If that wasn't working, I'd rather commit welfare fraud than give away my children.


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    God/dess Mare's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    Ok this really hit home for me.
    You should still be her friend.I don't know what kind of shoes you wear but 2 kids and a deadbeat husband,bills out the ass.Let's see a two bedroom atp around here is around 900.00.Then there's car insurance.Unforseen car expenses.Childcare is 100.00 weekly for 1 infant.A little less for an older child.Let's see she has 2.Gas for the car.Food for a family of 3.Health insurance.Kids need shots once in awhile.Clothing expenses.Diapers?Heat,electric,phone,god forbid she tries to SAVE some $ for a rainy day or retirement.Lord help her if she needs a break from 2 jobs and 2 kids and would just like to see a movie with you.
    That is just the tip of the iceberg.How about trying to hold it all together when the kids are sick and up all night and she can't call in to work because she needs the $.She is probably scared shitless.And no welfare will NOT help her.According to them if you have a job you make too much money.Gee-she has 2.Or she can try to lie.And then she can worry about what happens if they find out she's lying.They can go after the deadbeat dad.They can even jail him.I bet he can really pay her the $ from jail.
    Sure it is possible she is doing drugs.Probably not or she would have copped out along time ago.
    Oh and personal needs.We all have those.Masturbation only goes so far.
    She sounds very depressed.Actually with thoughts of giving her kids up she may be suicidal.Obviously she is stressed to the snapping point.She needs some real help.She doesn't see any other way out.Get her to go talk to someone that can maybe start helping her.I even called the suicide hotline one time because my situation is similar.You know what-they didn't have an answer -how sad-they didn't know what to say.I don't even know what else to tell you.I just wish you could be her for a week.

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    Veteran Member bloodydewdrop's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    Gynger,

    This is a hard situation, and I admire you for trying to help your friend. Would it be possible for her to give up the day job? If she makes the amount you said dancing, she could add an extra night and quit the day job at 6.50 an hour, which probably amounts to nothing in a week. She'd save some on childcare, and have some time during the day to relax (if kids at school) or spend with them later. Soon, her oldest child will be old enough not to require a babysitter all the time. Maybe she's depressed, like others have said, and isn't thinking clearly.

    I don't know what to say, as I don't have children. But my divorced when I was 10, my mom having custody of me and my two younger sibilings. She was a teacher, and my dad was practically a financial deadbeat. There wasn't lots of money, and for awhile, we lived in a 2.5 bedroom (the ".5" being a walk in closet off my mom's room which my little brother slept in). If she had surrendered us to the state, I would have flipped out, and probably would have been more mentally fucked up than I am now.

    I hope she thinks of the children and finds some way to resolve this.

    Good luck

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    Gynger: just was thinking about her this morning when I woke up. Wondering how she is doing...

    Bloodydewdrop: I am thinking that she is keeping the day job, as although it may only pay peanuts, it probably offers health insurance at a much lower rate than getting it on her own...I wouldn't suggest leaving that right now.

    What this woman really needs is a community of friends to help her through this time. I hope that she reaches out (and people respond) in order to keep sane and keep the children.

    Please update when you can!!

  21. #21
    Sitri
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    You are absolutely right. She is probably in a state of dispair. Worn out with no support.

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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    This is sooo sad. I dont think her intentions are as bad as they seem because I dont know her situation. But being that I have some cousins that I love very much, I couldnt imagine them not being there. It must be really hard for her if she is saying this about her kids.

    Hopefully she can work something out, but Gynger, I dont think you are wrong for being upset. I would be too... Keep us updated.

  23. #23
    God/dess Gynger's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    You guys hit on the head. She's keeping the day job for insurance for herself and her kids. Mare: You did bring up some points, and yes, she's worn out. I spoke with her last night on a break because I was worried about her too.

    One thing I'd like to point out is that I am not judging her, I'm upset with the situation, seems like lately a lot of people in my life are being faced with horrible things, having to make decisions that no one should have to make. I am a good friend to my friends in need, and she promised me last night that next week when we both had a night off that we would get together and I'd help her go over some things.. maybe even moving out of her apartment into a smaller one for a little while.

    Whomever brought up the welfare system hit the nail on the head. Last night's phone conversation was about that, she was in tears because they told her that she makes $50 too much to qualify for food stamps. $50???? You'd think they'd bend the rules a bit, but they don't. Sometimes I wonder if this country is so great, how come we have so many troubled kids and parents who are stressed out beyond belief. Its no wonder some single moms can't get off the system. She was telling me what she found out yesterday and my jaw was on the floor.

    Thanks everyone.


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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    yes welfare is such a joke. They basically encourage the father to not be in the home. Her being told she makes $50 too much to qualify for food stamps shows exactly why many welfare mothers would rather stay home and be an at home mom and collect a check than to go to work and bust ass for peanuts. It seems like you come out more ahead being on welfare (including section 8 housing) than to work for barely above minimum wage.

    Anybody interested in the whole "welfare to work" farce should read Nickel and Dimed. It was on the best seller list not too long ago and was required reading for one of my b/f's classes.

    I'm glad to hear that your friend has you to confide in. Hopefully it will help her see other options that she may not have seen if everything was internalized.

    This proposed Louisiana ban on hip huggers makes my stomach churn. I'd like to draft a bill that would make it criminal for a father that's court ordered to pay support deliberately quit his job and transfer or sell assetts to avoid paying.


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    Member Ellie Tara's Avatar
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    Default Re:What would any of you do???

    If she does give them up...hopefully she fully understands that future children she may want to birth WILL BE TAKEN AWAY. I have an ex-friend who has had a boy (she birthed at fifteen), a girl (she birthed at seventeen)-- both taken by the state-- so go figure when she had her life together, the twin boys she had at almost twenty
    were TAKEN AS WELL... while she was still in the hospital...about a week or two after their birth.
    The prejudice she will set up for herself will never be erased.
    etherreal eyes

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