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Thread: Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

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    Default Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Do any of you guys feel that many clubs have less customers now, especially the target older guys, because teasing isn't working for them anymore?

    Lot's of guys seem to grow attached to dancers as we all know and in doing so part with a lot of cash and then never seem to be able to develop an out of club relationship.

    Many guys want out of club relationships and of course sex. With girl after girl seeing the customers as $'s, could it be the guys feel taken advantage of? I know the guys shouldn't be going in the club with those kinds of expectations, but people's emotions rule their minds, and when their minds finally kick in, things change.

    I am just wondering if the clubs are not fun to guys anymore because of this.


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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I can't speak for everyone but I think it's got a lot to do with the fact that the price of everything is going up and we have less money to go around for entertainment.
    "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I have seen alot of prices go up, especially gas prices! This factor goes alot into what the men will spend. the older men with money are still thinking about their money. This is how alot of them got their money in the first place (thinking about how and how much to spend). This factors alot into how much they spend and how often they spend.

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    Veteran Member Nina's Avatar
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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I think the mystery and allure and taboo and seduction is gone..... Strippers on T.V., writing books, on the web.. Some of us tell ALL! Strippers tell the news reporter which star spent how much and did what in the club. Everyone knows a stripper and everyone wants to be a stripper..And everyone "knows" stripper tactics. Strippers have sex with customers for 500 and less!Strippers who dance in everyday blah outfits, strippers who can only dance, no conversation, no stimulation, no professionalism.

    This is a fantasy business and as the fantasy becomes day-to-day reality there is less incentive to indulge in it!
    Not to mention the outfits some women walk around in these days ...... I mean you can see a chick in a thong at the local swimming pool, shaking her booty around for free! Why pay a lot in a club for it?

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    This is a fantasy business and as the fantasy becomes day-to-day reality there is less incentive to indulge in it! Not to mention the outfits some women walk around in these days ...... I mean you can see a chick in a thong at the local swimming pool, shaking her booty around for free! Why pay a lot in a club for it?
    Nina is exactly right about this. With the exception of super upscale "show" clubs, which still operate in a "show business" mode, and which draw super upscale customers who have enough money that they aren't affected by a poor economy, the basic nature of the business has changed. In most clubs, customers are now on limited budgets such that spending another $50 a week for gasoline means buying fewer lap dances or making fewer trips to a club. When these guys do save up enough money for a club trip, once they get there they usually drive a very hard bargain - typically expecting to be able to "touch the merchandise". As Nina says, these days guys can look for free !

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I'm only discouraged when i can't get any no-strings sex. What's the deal there?

    I thought Strippers were supposed to all be sluts who'd fuck anyone. They sure don't live up to their reputations.

    I mean, we all know that whatever anyone says about strippers is all true. No matter what the source.

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I think its the combination of both: the bad economy and the culture.

    Sex is everywhere today in our media. Soft core porn is all over cable, and VCR's are ubiquitous. When it comes time to go out, as a friend of mine put it, "Tits, I've seen too many tits--lets do something else".

    When money gets tight entertainment budgets get the sqeeze first. So given the choice between dropping several hundred dollars on a Champagne room and $3.95 on a video rental, the choice is easy.

    The value of a club is in the social interaction. I can see naked bodies on the tube, but I can't interact with them. That's why its even more important to smile, make eye contact, and "engage" the clients in conversation.
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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Yea, I would say so.

    It seems in the old days there was a little more flirting in the clubs. Also, there were fewer girls in the club so it was more like a "privilege" to get to spend some time with the girl. And, if you spent $100 you had your fun. The girls made money, and the guys weren't putting a mortgage on the house to go out for an hour.

    Anymore, you go into a club and there are like 30 - 50 girls in there. Sometimes it feels like I'm swatting mosquitoes away. You get 3 songs, drop $60 in 15 minutes. And then she leaves to scout for the next dance and 3 more girls appear.

    Anymore, if I go to entertain a client, I take $200. Stay for an hour than that it is off to have a nice dinner.

    It's just overwhelming sometimes with the number of girls looking for a dance.


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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I think that all of the above comments about the escalating levels of open sexuality and near nudity and so forth in our culture and the world at large are all right on target.

    I have been going to strip clubs for over 35 years and can remember when it was a huge thrill just to see a topless or naked woman, then to just sit and chat with a dancer in some skimpy outfit, then to have a private dance even though it was all or mostly "air", then to have dancers touching me lightly and occasionally, then when I got to touch them in "appropriate places, then when I started getting full contact lap dances and was encouraged to touch their breasts and sometimes more, then when many places started having private rooms. Etc. In other words, in order to compete with each other and with what was available in the "outside world", either in real life or via the media, strippers and strip clubs have been continually ratcheting up the intimacy and permissiveness of what they provide to customers. I think that the dancers who worked when I first started patronizing strip clubs 30+ years ago would have considered today's strip clubs to be very close to brothels by their standards then.

    Yet, at each new level, the customers eventually become blase, maybe even bored, after a while until something novel and excitingly new comes along.

    Another effect is that as society becomes less sexually repressive, a larger fraction of women are willing to be strippers (or other sorts of "sex workers"), so the competition is also escalating.

    Of course, there are lots of short term and local effects having to do with the economy or legal situations and so forth, but there are also the above long term trends.

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tina link=board=27;threadid=9387;start=msg112264#msg112 264 date=1085102911
    Do any of you guys feel that many clubs have less customers now, especially the target older guys, because teasing isn't working for them anymore?

    Lot's of guys seem to grow attached to dancers as we all know and in doing so part with a lot of cash and then never seem to be able to develop an out of club relationship.

    Many guys want out of club relationships and of course sex. With girl after girl seeing the customers as $'s, could it be the guys feel taken advantage of? I know the guys shouldn't be going in the club with those kinds of expectations, but people's emotions rule their minds, and when their minds finally kick in, things change.

    I am just wondering if the clubs are not fun to guys anymore because of this.

    This is absolutely true for me.

    I now go to clubs ONLY to develop out-of-club "relationships". (And, contrary to what you read here, it happens ALL THE TIME, with girls who are not "sluts" or "prostitutes".)

    I view what happens IN clubs (by which I mean mainstream low-mileage clubs) as insulting to customers and a rip-off.

    I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way.

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rath link=board=27;threadid=9387;start=msg112488#msg112 488 date=1085155116
    .

    I now go to clubs ONLY to develop out-of-club "relationships". (And, contrary to what you read here, it happens ALL THE TIME, with girls who are not "sluts" or "prostitutes".)

    I view what happens IN clubs (by which I mean mainstream low-mileage clubs) as insulting to customers and a rip-off.

    Not prostitutes ? Give me a break Sounds like Rath is in denial here.

    Insulting ? Doing their jobs legaly is insulting ?

    Rip-off ? How is it a rip -off. They offer particular kind of service and people CHOOSE to partake. That's not a rip -off. That's commerce.

    Do the industry and yourself a favor Rath and just stay out of the clubs and call an escort instead.

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I used to go once a month or so...this year I've gone once so far.

    It's a combination of a lot of little things: money is tighter, dance prices have gone up, I know a little too much (making the fantasy near impossible to achieve or experience), I can't get conversation out of any dancers at my clubs...my visits just don't cheer me up like they used to. The only selling point left is the contact, which is very expensive and very hit or miss at the "tip 100-200% upfront" clubs around here.

    So I go less these days.

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Tina asked a question. I answered it honestly.

    You're not gonna have much honest exchange here if you jump all over anyone who doesn't hew to your party line. (I don't mean you have to agree with me. I mean you don't need to insult me instead of addressing me.)

    I could explain to you why I feel they way I do -- and since I've been a consumer of the type of services you provide, you'd think you might find that useful for purposes of your own business planning and marketing -- but you don't want to hear about it.

    Fine.

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    Veteran Member Santos's Avatar
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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Most of us only have so much money, and as Kryssy mentioned above, even well-heeled gentlemen watch their money because that is how many became up well-heeled in the first place.

    I hate having to watch my money, but I have to do it now. I usually go to the clubs in Las Vegas, and as everyone here knows, there is no shortage of dancers in LV. Saying no every three minutes gets a little tiring and tedious. After a while I get worn down and spend more money that I wanted to. I leave the club feeling like I didn’t have a good time. I’m not blaming anyone but myself, but I figure why should I spend a lot of money to have a bad time.

    And I'm not a spend thrift, but the overpriced drinks really irk me. I expect the drinks to be a little more expensive, but some of these clubs really whack customers on the price. It’s an insult to be charged so much for a watered down drink. My only option is to not drink at the club (impossible!) or just not go at all. Lately, I’ve been deciding not go.

    Club managers need to change their marketing approach to get customers in the door: Happy hours or other drink specials, cheaper cover charge, free food, 2 for 1 dances etc. If they can’t come with ways to move with the changing market, they will probably lose business.

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I have been going to strip clubs for over 35 years and can remember when it was a huge thrill just to see a topless or naked woman, then to just sit and chat with a dancer in some skimpy outfit, then to have a private dance even though it was all or mostly "air", then to have dancers touching me lightly and occasionally, then when I got to touch them in "appropriate places, then when I started getting full contact lap dances and was encouraged to touch their breasts and sometimes more, then when many places started having private rooms. Etc. In other words, in order to compete with each other and with what was available in the "outside world", either in real life or via the media, strippers and strip clubs have been continually ratcheting up the intimacy and permissiveness of what they provide to customers. I think that the dancers who worked when I first started patronizing strip clubs 30+ years ago would have considered today's strip clubs to be very close to brothels by their standards then.
    Well, Ww, I wasn't dancing in clubs 30 years ago, but I have talked with girls who were (in particular my aunt). However I was dancing in clubs 10 years ago, and I can certainly vouch for the fact that the difference in the business over the last 10 years is both astounding and disappointing.

    When I first started dancing it was considered "show business". Girls who were exotic dancers, who were good at it, and who were stunning to look at as well, were looked upon with respect and (dare I say it) admiration. There was an extremely clear distinction, known to both the dancers and the customers, between "show business" and "sex business".

    However over the past few years, with the exception of a handful of super upscale show clubs, what's left of the exotic dancing industry has clearly joined the ranks of the "sex business". This is true in the minds of customers, in the actions required of dancers in order to earn decent money, and certainly in the minds of the general public. Instead of receiving respect and admiration, dancers are increasingly treated as 'low lifes' who are expected to jump through hoops for a $1 tip, who are propositioned to "put out" on a nearly constant basis, and who must regularly fight off customers attempting aggressive contact during private dances (customers who assume that spending the huge amount of $20 entitles them to whatever they can get away with!).

    This is the single most regrettable change which I have seen and experienced in the exotic dancing industry, and it continues to bother me greatly !

    In regard to club owner business ethics and attitudes, this is another area which has changed greatly over the past 10 years. The major area of change is of course corporate owned clubs taking over locally owned clubs. In many cases, corporate clubs are under tremendous financial pressure to turn a profit and make the mortgage payment on their club, and are not above using business tactics like price gouging of customers, charging dancers high percentages or high fixed amounts for the "privelege" of dancing in their club, turning a blind eye or actually encouraging illegal levels of contact in order to sell more private dances etc. Perhaps the aspect which bothers me the most is that corporate clubowners now treat dancers as dispensable interchangeable bodies rather than valued individual performers.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Well................................ I still like them.

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=27;threadid=9387;start=msg112633#msg112 633 date=1085175702
    1 - When I first started dancing it was considered "show business". Girls who were exotic dancers, who were good at it, and who were stunning to look at as well, were looked upon with respect and (dare I say it) admiration. There was an extremely clear distinction, known to both the dancers and the customers, between "show business" and "sex business".

    2 - corporate clubs are under tremendous financial pressure to turn a profit and make the mortgage payment on their club, and are not above using business tactics like price gouging of customers, charging dancers high percentages or high fixed amounts for the "privelege" of dancing in their club, ...
    1 - I think that is about right, although I would add the caveat that it depens somewhat on where and not just when you are talking about. In other words, there have been strippers and strip clubs that were pretty much in the "sex business" for a long time in some places, particularly some of the big cities in the NE: the places on The Block in Baltimore or in The Combat Zone in Boston or say The Harmony in NYC, etc. But for most clubs in most of the country, I think your description is accurate.

    2 - And, of course, such management tactics are self-defeating in the long run because they chase away customers and the best dancers. Then with a smaller customer base the clubs have to be even more "aggressive"...which drives of more customers and dancers...and so on in a classic vicious circle.

    As a number of other guys have said above, I find myself going to strip clubs less often with each passing year because I just don't enjoy them as much as I used to. It is not really the prices, though they often do seem outrageous to me; I can afford it better than ever before anyway, because my disposable income has risen faster than the club prices. (And if nothing else proves it, my fave place to go to strip clubs these days is Tokyo, and it is way more expensive than any place I have seen in the US.) It just isn't that entertaining any more for a host of reasons it seems. (And I go in Tokyo because I have fewer options there and have a better time.)

    Sigh... ???

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I think the others are right. Some (possibly a lot) of the down swing is due to the economy. Some of it may be due to the internet. Porn, and sex oriented chat is free or cheap. Why spend hundreds on a trip to SC when you do some fantasy play for free?





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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rath link=board=27;threadid=9387;start=msg112577#msg112 577 date=1085165992
    Tina asked a question. I answered it honestly.

    You're not gonna have much honest exchange here if you jump all over anyone who doesn't hew to your party line. (I don't mean you have to agree with me. I mean you don't need to insult me instead of addressing me.)

    I could explain to you why I feel they way I do -- and since I've been a consumer of the type of services you provide, you'd think you might find that useful for purposes of your own business planning and marketing -- but you don't want to hear about it.

    Fine.
    I'm not sure if many of us would find your comments constructive, since you basically said all you care about is seeing dancers outside the club. Most of us are concerned with maximizing our earnings in the club, so it's unlikely that any advice you gave in that arena would be the least bit helpful.
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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Regionally speaking, the fall-off in business here would provide evidence that it's not simply the disillusionment of the process nor the devalueing of sex industry from media exposure (nor the "output level" of strippers as some might hope to try and push their agenda for lol).

    Out here, there are dedicated "sex clubs" as well as stripclubs. The sexclubs behave much like stripclubs, but the women are available for sex, companionship and escorting, be it inside our outside the club... and it's been that way for 8+ years. These women are still seeing a massive downswing in club traffic, customers and earnings.

    The sex industry at all levels has sufferred big loses in revenue and patrons. Porn sales are down, prostitutes/escorts are lowering rates and working less, and the effect has also trickled down even to the stripclubs. I'm in no way trying to lump strippers into the same categories as the stripclubs are a strange hybrid of offerring appeal for both standard entertainment factor and sex industry into one, but it would stand to figure if one looks at the sex industry component of stripclubs to find reasoning, the other models with their fall-offs can provide more data and reasoning.

    It's purely economical. For the highest majority of sex industry patrons, it's a novelty expenditure. As the economy changes, people start to cut their spending and the novelty/entertainment expenditures always get the axe first.

    Novelty/entertainment spending also requires a certain mindset. So even if there is a surplus of spending money, the target customers may not have confidence/faith in future economic conditions and therefore decide to bank or save these funds versus spend them. Many of the bigger corporations went on spending freezes, as well as salary reductions and lay-offs to ride through the tides created by 9/11. More than half have recovered and spending/salary levels have been returned to prior state, but this doesnt mean the spending confidence has returned to the masses.

    Novelty factor also has a tendency to wane between down time. This is probably the biggest issue at this time as many, many sex industry patrons that had cut back their spending previously are starting to see the cash roll in once more, but they have discovered the "withdrawal" of their previous habits are over and they don't necessarily feel they need to return to old ways. While they may have missed stripclubs and nightlife a year ago, as it's been out of their lives for an extended duration, they are now rethinking their entertainment needs.

    One more tidbit- as stripclubs do cross over between entertainment and sex industry, it should also go without saying that the entertainment biz has also sufferred greatly in the last 2-3 years. I have family in the music business and most of the clubs they have performed at in the past have shut their doors in the last 2-3 years due to reduced business. Moreover, they have been forced to supplement their income with weekend and day gigs as the tips and customer traffic in the piano bars and music clubs have dropped to roughly 1/4 what it was 2-3 years ago as well.

    And yes, even the pure entertainment industry has also seen an influx of a different crowd- with younger people with lesser expenditures looking for something to do have now started to filter in where the older, spendier crowd used to frequent. Perhaps it's the reduction of the older crowd in and of itself that has made these establishments more attractive to the younger people? Obviously, if a late teen, early 20's customer peeks into a bar or stripclub and sees mostly 35-65 year old men, they wouldn't consider it an appropriate hang out. Whereas if the place is near empty, they might be more likely to enter, stay and find it entertaining. Add laws of increasing returns and word of mouth... you can start to imagine a possible line of reasoning.

    These are my outlooks anyways. The local dynamic here may not match or mirror everywhere, but the local region does make for some pretty interesting conditions from which to form hypothesis' and rationality.
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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    I just posted this question to get some feedback from dancers who may have been told from their customers what they like and dislike and to get feedback from male members to see what motivates and doesn't motivate them to go to clubs.

    We as dancers can bash guys who say what we don't want to hear. Everytime a guy mentions that dances don't do it for him anymore, dancers on here want to lash out. that is not going to make things change.

    I personally want to know what motivates men to spend or not spend money. We need to know what motivates the MAJORITY of men to patronize AND spend money in clubs.

    And if the industry is declining because the MAJORITY of men are not interested in spending money on what we are selling, then we need to accept that and possibly make plans to find another line of work.

    Yet's not cuss out the guys. They pay our bills and we need to understand what men want. There is nothing to be gained by us being defensive.

    If strip clubs are not offering what a majority of men want anymore then we need to be aware of that.

    That's all this post is about. If guys are discouraged with clubs in growing numbers, knowing how they feel will answer our questions as to why most clubs are slower and guys are more cautious spending money, won't it?

    Let's not turn this into guy bashing. I don't want to bash anyone, ok.

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    now I'm depressed...........If some of the girls werent so pushy the men might enjoy themselves more, and if the men werent so pushy maybe the girls wouldnt be so cranky.
    Brave new world........
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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    One problem with all the big money corporate clubs is that dancers individually have no value to these clubs. With so many girls all of us have no individual merit to the club.

    In the smaller town independently owned clubs I work at many of them respect the dancers who book there who are reliable and good with the customers. they want to keep us around.

    And the regular customers can feel that and are more comfortable patronizing a place where the good dancers are appreciated.

    What type of attitude are dancers going to have if they are treated like herds of cattle and bitches in heat?

    With the money behind many of these large clubs, the owners should have a better understanding of winning and keeping customers and dancers, but they run clubs like they have had no formal business training.

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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tina link=board=27;threadid=9387;start=msg112693#msg112 693 date=1085185010
    With the money behind many of these large clubs, the owners should have a better understanding of winning and keeping customers and dancers, but they run clubs like they have had no formal business training.
    That is an excellent point imo. In an abstract sense, a strip club is no different than many other types of businesses and there are only a few general things you can do to get more business or make more money:
    - reduce prices
    - improve the product
    - advertise more
    - target new markets to attract new types of customers
    - change the business model (how you generate income)
    - reduce expenses
    Etc. I don't know all that much about business in any formal sense, so I am sure that there are a few others, but in any case, one sure doesn't get the impression that most clubs are even trying to do anything clever or even half-clever. Basically they just continue to treat both the customers and the dancers worse it appears.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  25. #25
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re:Are Guys Discouraged with Clubs ?

    - reduce prices
    In a market with a vast surplus of capacity (in this case more dancers than customers), starting a price war invariably spreads immediately to every retail outlet in town. The only way this is good for the business owner is if they are sure that they can sustain the loss in profitability longer than their competition, thus forcing the competition out of business. Then once the competition is permanently removed, they can dominate the market. This 'WalMart' approach has been very successfully used by corporate clubs such as DejaVu/Hustler. But it has not been good for privately owned clubs who have been forced to close, and it has not been good for dancers who typically wind up forking over 50% of their earnings to the remaining clubs from newly instituted stage fees or private dance percentages.

    - improve the product
    This depends on your definition of "product". If the "product" is eye candy, a number of new super-upscale clubs have tried to do this. It is generally good for the 10%-20% of dancers who can meet the new "quality standard", but bad for the 80%-90% who can't. If the "product" is lap dances, then a large number of clubs have tried this as well in the form of higher mileage.

    - advertise more
    Unfortunately, like the cigarette industry, strip clubs are generally restricted in their ability to advertise. This can be due to an outright refusal by local gov't/media to allow strip club advertising. More likely it is due to a very realistic fear that advertising a strip club will create more negative impact due to the possibility of a conservative anti-dance club backlash from the "fine upstanding citizens" who are reminded of a strip club in their neighborhood.

    - target new markets to attract new types of customers
    Again clubs are trying to appeal to new markets on both ends of the customer spectrum - super upscale gentlemen's clubs, and super sleazy "extras" clubs.

    - change the business model (how you generate income)
    Lots of things have been tried in this area as well, from selling hokey merchandise at the dancer's expense to charging dancers high stage fees and high percentages of private dance sales.

    - reduce expenses
    This has been tried as well, from neglecting club building maintenance to stopping donations to the local police "widows and orphans fund". In both cases, the short term savings are generally followed by long term difficulties.

    I would contend that the corporate clubs in fact know exactly what they are doing in regard to their business plan and club management. The fundamental point is that, unlike privately owned clubs of old, corporate clubs treat dancers just like every other corporate business treats their employees - as an expendable, replaceable human resource who should not be given one extra iota of consideration or one extra cent of earnings potential other than what is absolutely necessary to provide enough workers to staff the facility. This definitely represents a problem for dancers, but it certainly doesn't present a problem for corporate club owners.

    Just like WalMart, corporate clubs like DejaVu/Hustler which appeal to a broad customer base really don't have to worry about keeping dancers or customers happy after independent competitors have been run out of business such that they become the dominant 'retail outlet' in town. They don't try to compete with super upscale "product offerings" to super upscale customers i.e. Macy's=Scores, who have their own corporate business model. But what both corporate club segments do is put tremendous pressure on the profitability of independent club owners, and on the earnings potential of dancers working in independent clubs, until the independent club is hopefully driven out of business. Once that happens, both corporate club segments absorb whatever remains of the independent club customer base. They also benefit from the instant surplus of dancers, enabling both corporate clubs to increase stage fees and private dance percentages charged of their own dancers based on the theory that any girls unwilling to go along with the increase can then be easily replaced from the instant surplus.

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