We don't do it all on our own. I had a dancer try to get me to buy a lapdance....she told me she had just given a guy a dance and girated on him until he blew his wad in his pants.
....I declined. Ew.
We don't do it all on our own. I had a dancer try to get me to buy a lapdance....she told me she had just given a guy a dance and girated on him until he blew his wad in his pants.
....I declined. Ew.





This is an unescapable financial principle. If a city passes an anti-dance club ordinance which legally limits the types of entertainment that dancers can offer to things which customers are simply unwilling to spend money on, it essentially leaves dancers with 3 choices..."It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. Rath is right. If the market isn't there then the provider has to improve her service or get out."
#1 - move to a different city to escape the ordinance
#2 - continue to work locally as a dancer but earning peanuts (to the point where a straight job would pay as much)
#3 - bend/break the law and give the customers the illegal contact that they expect in exchange for their money
This is the painful irony of anti-dance club ordinances. These were of course intended to "clean up" the clubs. However, when the penalties for violating an ordinance by giving a contact lap dance, for example, carry the same legal penalties and fines as violating state prostitution law, this actually serves to INCREASE the incidence of HJ's,BJ's etc. since the consequences of being busted are essentially identical but the earnings potential is much much higher !I think part of that is local laws... like ones that say you cant touch the floor with anything other then the bottom of your feet, you cant have your legs at more then a 30 degree angle, you cant move any body part in a sexual or sex inspired way. that preaty much cuts out all dance except possibly twirling. Even doing pleates (sp?) are grounds for a prositution charge, what bs.......





Thus meaning that the typical stripper in this situation is a criminal, and could be labelled a sexual offender for the rest of her life.
But hey, who cares if it's illegal?
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
______________________________________



I think this is a blanket statement, and certainly not true for everyone working in strip clubs. Just because you are going to be one of the girls who follows the new laws doesn't necessarily mean that you will be earning peanuts. It may mean that you will have to work harder, maybe come in on time, improve your appearance and/or attitude etc.Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121242#msg1212 42 date=1087043047
And it seems to me that city ordinances aren't the only thing to blame for the clubs getting "nastier". Take Austin for example. It's pretty much not what it used to be, and a lot goes on in the clubs here...it's actually not that much different than Houston. There have been no city ordinances. And there are lots of other cities that had problems with high contact dancing before any city ordinance came into effect. I think the problem (while it may be exacerbated by city ordinances) also may be indicative of the fact that many club owners (not worried or caring about any legal repercussions), tend to develop a "turn the other way" policy when it comes to dancers bending the rules because they think this will earn them more money (via kickbacks usually, as in the case near South Bend), or they just don't want to go to the expense of hiring enough staff to effectively solve the problem.





Kat--No you won't make $1000 doing stage only. More like $200- $400. But you can also do table dances and depending on the club VIP time- a couple of vip's added to typical stage and you'll walk with a grand easy.Originally Posted by Katrine link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121189#msg1211 89 date=1087018629
But quite honestly I think you would do very well in Atlanta. You have a quirky personality and have some international appeal ( Atlanta is fairly eclectic and cultured ) as well as actual dance training.
In 2000/2001 I was earning $600+ pretty much every night in Atlanta with half or more coming from stage and doing zero contact.
Thanks Tigerlilly!!
Yeah, Austin will catch up to Houston soon as long as they keep building darker and more private VIP areas.....
"Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
"And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion
Originally Posted by Mia M





I am sorry to hear things are getting worse in Austin, I always loved that city, and miss living there. But I rarely went to strip clubs back then.
Atlanta might be a great place to go, Katrine. I have spent a fair amount of time there when I was dating a girl who lived in Buckhead--the climate is good, there is a lot of money there, lots of clubs to work in, and a good cultural atmosphere.
Brittany, great posts, glad to have you here...
And Tigerlilly, it is cool to hear someone can make good money without submitting to cretins like this 'johnnygaganucci'. You are, as always, a voice of reason in this deluge of horseshit. I don't think it is necessary quite yet for strippers to do most of their work on their knees.
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
______________________________________





Originally Posted by Djoser link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121222#msg1212 22 date=1087027903
thankyou DJoser for your comments above
It bothers me to no end that customers come to a dancer support sites like this one and preach that "give them whatever they want for $20 or get the F out out" crap .
It's a form of manipulantion like an attempt at brainwashing or something![]()
All dancers could do another job. It might not pay as well, that's true-- but they can all still get a differnt job.
Customers on the other hand have limited other venues to get what they want - a very real fact that they tend to like to forget.
Certainly not the raincoat crewOriginally Posted by Djoser link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121313#msg1213 13 date=1087062594
despite the fact that they are going to run clubs right out of their grasp if things continue to evolve they way they have been. That group can't see past their next nut to understand the long-term consequences of ever higher mileage to anyone -- including themselves .





No doubt due to the fact that they are thinking with their dicks, which no amount of clever rhetoric can disguise...
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
______________________________________




Wow, Brittany and DJoser- obviously my post was misunderstood and I appologize if it wasn't clear enough. A little explanation is in order.
This, in a nutshell, was what I was referring to. Low contact dances in the higher-contact clubs don't make a "dime" comparitively. But you're speaking of exactly the process I was trying to describe- and would love to see more of.Originally Posted by Brittany link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg120902#msg1209 02 date=1086966649
Much along the same lines of what Katrine has said, there just aren't enough customers walking through the doors seeking this. If there were, then enforcement of rules would be more along the lines of the upperscale clubs. All the motivations between contact rules and what management is willing to look away from are directly related to demand from customer base. If 90% of the customers demand contact, then this is what the club evolves to in order to maximize earnings. This is the only reason why the upper-upper scales/gown clubs could remain low-contact- as long as there are good earnings walking through the door, the rules/boundries and club model have the luxury of being enforced. You can guarantee that if east coast gown club earnings dropped through the floor, contact would eventually ramp up to compensate.
My jab at the original poster was- if every guy claiming this preference actually went out, frequented clubs, and spent proportionately to this claim, lots of higher contact clubs would evolve downwards, not upwards.
I hear it all the time- "If such-and-such club were lower contact, I'd be there every week!" when no club or dancer has some illusionary class or line that has been "lost" (actual words used in this thread). Many of the veteran dancers that are in the higher-contact clubs... MOST have come from a history of working lower contact for the past 4-5 years and therefore are perfectly skilled at providing such entertainment. Most local have migrated up the contact "ladder" in search of earnings since their low-contact clubs yield about 1/2 of what they did in 1999-2000. So now they are in high-contact clubs where maybe 5% of the customers desire anything aside from the highest mileage offerred.. but a whole slew of people saying they have the low mileage preference, but just not hitting/frequenting clubs and spending towards this preference.
My main point was- if there were actual dollars behind noble opinions, there would be a lot less 'extras' in the higher contact clubs, and there would also be a lot less contact in them as well. It's alot like those that like to complain and point a finger at George Bush, but never registered nor voted. Surely if all those that liked to point opinions at a given scenario actually did something tangible to instigate change, change would indeed happen. Hence why I see such topics as this a bit discouraging as most all sources are hot-air..
It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.





Agreed, Polecat, and sorry if it seems like I jumped on you. But I think Icarus means what he says--I don't see it as hot air, and I was very glad to see him address the issue as he did.Originally Posted by polecat link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121426#msg1214 26 date=1087078425
You can also read this thread (warning--it's long) in Stripping General to get an idea of the kind of debate which leads me to be critical of what may seem to be mere statement of fact.
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/ind...cer/t9652.html
Most of the customer comments are well meant here, too. But they don't seem to acknowledge or care about the negative ramifications of this trend, which I will not deny, does unfortunately exist.
And the "Blow me or quit" attitude that johnnygaganucci espouses is abhorrent to anyone who really cares about this business. Not to mention it's being ultimately self-defeating, to anyone who wants to deal with dancers with any trace of compassion or consideration for customers.
We constantly see posts by guys complaining of mercenary, selfish behavior on the part of dancers. We all know this exists as well.
Well, if dancers are being pressured by economic conditions to suck dick or get out, no wonder...
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
______________________________________





Of course this was a general statement, and may not apply in every instance. A lot of the financial repurcussions of a new anti-dance club ordinance depend on what local customers are used to, and what options they have available within a reasonable distance. An example which speaks to your comment is Buffalo, NY, which passed a strict dance club ordinance a few years ago. Buffalo, of course, borders Ontario canada, where clubs are allowed to serve alcohol plus nudity plus full contact. The end result of the ordinance was that Buffalo now has one and only one very successful low contact "show club" which attracts primo dancers i.e. 9's and 10's, draws a very nice 3 piece suit business crowd, and provides dancers probably a $500+ earnings potential while working within the law. Ontario border clubs of course draw the high contact crowd and dancers willing to provide it, as laws are lenient and enforcement is non-existant, providing these high contact girls with a $500+ earnings potential also.I think this is a blanket statement, and certainly not true for everyone working in strip clubs. Just because you are going to be one of the girls who follows the new laws doesn't necessarily mean that you will be earning peanuts. It may mean that you will have to work harder, maybe come in on time, improve your appearance and/or attitude etc.
But the three other clubs in downtown Buffalo, which did not have the upscale demeanor to appeal to the Buffalo businessmen, and which could not offer the high contact levels available across the bridge in Ft. Erie or Niagara Falls Ontario clubs because of the Buffalo ordinance, are lucky to average a $150 a night earnings potential no matter how hard the dancers work if they are staying within the ordinance. Of course, if a Buffalo dancer isn't a 9 or 10, she probably can't get hired in the one and only show club, leaving her the three choices I mentioned.
Here's another misconception ... that if girls are busted for doing 'extras' that the club will also share the heat. While in rare cases the clubowner has been charged with promoting prostitution, in 99% of cases the club escapes all charges via plausible deniability ("honest officer, I had no idea girls were doing that in the private dance booths !"). This effectively means that the club and clubowner benefit financially when dancers do 'extras', either via kickbacks or simply by collecting percentages of a greater number of private dances sold by 'dirty' dancers and by collecting cover charges from customers drawn to the club in search of sleaze, with the club and clubowner usually not being subjected to any legal repurcussions if a 'dirty' dancer is busted in their club.Thus meaning that the typical stripper in this situation is a criminal, and could be labelled a sexual offender for the rest of her life. But hey, who cares if it's illegal?
'Certainly not the raincoat crew despite the fact that they are going to run clubs right out of their grasp if things continue to evolve they way they have been. That group can't see past their next nut to understand the long-term consequences of ever higher mileage to anyone -- including themselves'
This being the case 99% of the time, 'average' clubowners have everything to gain and nothing to lose by tolerating or even encouraging dancers to do 'extras'. 99% of the time, the worst that will happen is that a 'dirty' dancer offers 'extras' with the tacit approval of club management, the club collects extra money from her customers, she is eventually busted and fired, she is convicted and gets a criminal record, and the club simply hires a new dancer to take her place.
The exception of course is upscale "show clubs" which only provide dancers who are 9's and 10's for the enjoyment of the 3 piece suit business crowd. Even if the club or clubowner are not charged with anything, the publicity associated with dancers being busted risks scaring off the 3 piece suit businessmen for fear that they may somehow share in the bad publicity and damage their business reputations. Therefore upscale "show club" owners DO risk losing business if a 'dirty' dancer were to be busted in their club, and they generally self-regulate to avoid the possibility.
Objectively speaking, dancers who are 9's and 10's and who are able to work in upscale low contact "show clubs" manage to escape the majority of negative effects which stem from the passage of an anti-dance club ordinance. But for the 80% of all dancers who don't measure up to "show club" standards and thus must work at 'lesser' clubs, the financial effects of an anti-dance club ordinance can be much more devastating.
It's a very BOLD line in my opinion. The problem with a lot of "new" dancers is that they have forgotten the "art of seduction". They think that men are turned on by being bumped and grinded. Sure...they are...but they can also be turned on by a very sensual dance...one in which they are never touched. Stripteases, done right, can turn a man on more than him being touched. Men are visual...if you make yourself and your dance visually stimulating...then there is no need for you to actually touch him. But, I think one of the problems is that people THINK that the Stripclub business is a Sexually orientated business more than a Sensually orientated business.
Hopefully, it will go back to the way it was before...





Mine too. Not every time, but of most of the clubs and areas I danced, as the local population climbed higher on the conservative meter, they also climbed higher on the strip club expectations and asshole customer meter. Take Texas for example. That's a conservative state if I ever saw one, yet the dances there are some of the raunchiest in the country. Then take New Orleans as another example. That's a liberal community if I ever saw one, yet the dancing there is some of the tamest in the country - the girls still have to dance on 18" tables there!Originally Posted by Brittany link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg120902#msg1209 02 date=1086966649
Ya know, I started out dancing on those tables, and they are a huge pain in the ass but sometimes I do miss them.





Oh and Venus I don't think the new dancers ever knew the art of seduction to forget it. New dancers barely know their ass from their platforms (and I say that in the most unoffensive of ways), they don't learn the art of seduction unless someone teaches them. Unfortunately no one's teaching anymore. Managers hire a girl by giving her an eyeball, maybe take her ID and have her sign some papers, show her to the dressing room and DJ booth, pat her on the butt and send her to the sharks. This is why the dickhead raincoaters always like the younger girls - they know they tend to have less experience and are more easily "taught" (because no one else is teaching her) than an older experienced girl who's heard their BS 40 million times.



I totally agree with Bridgette about new dancers not having to learn the art of seduction. Now in strip clubs I think many customers and club owners would rther have a dancer who "blurs the lines" than knows how to be classy......![]()
I would have to disagree with you there, Bridgette. I believe that they KNOW what the "art of seduction" entails. They know how to make the tease...the problem is that they are confusing being a stripper/dancer/entertainer with being a prostitute (the media's fault, of course). But, because they are getting the roles grossly mistaken, all of the REAL dancers who remember WHAT dancing is all about are paying for it in loss in revenue.
In remembering, I am not saying that the "new" dancer learned it to begin with...it's more about "remembering" what an entertainer is there for (not for sex, but for entertainment). OR they feel that they can make more money being dirty than they could being clean.





Well, just remembering my own experience, if I'd had the misfortune of starting out in the climate most newbies are starting in lately, I think my idea of the art of seduction would be vastly different than what it is. We only know what we're taught and if new girls are not being taught (or are being misled by media and selfish asshole customers), how could they know? I see so many new girls all the time who really seem to think snogging (and whatever else) with all the customers is just how it works it sickens me.
Maybe I'm a bit cynical though.





Cynicism is pessimism in the absence of supporting fact. However, in this case, there is unfortunately a ton of supporting fact. With the possible exception of a handful of super upscale "show clubs", it's simply next to impossible for a dancer to sell 'seduction' in today's club culture. This is particularly the case when the dancer in the next booth is offering full contact lap dances or 'extras', the club is tacitly or blatantly promoting a high contact reputation to draw in additional customers, and club customers have come to expect high contact and 'extras' in exchange for their hard earned money.Maybe I'm a bit cynical though
Pandora's box has been opened, and no matter how hard a few of us wish for the 'good ol days' to return, most customers are never again going to be happy with a zero contact air dance. There's no point in new girls learning the fine art of 'seduction' if they can't sell it ! By and large, new girls come into the business with one thought in mind - making lots of money in a hurry. High contact and 'extras' are part of that formula, and many new girls don't have too many qualms about going along with the program.



But the thing is...I think a lot of these girls could be selling seduction if they wanted to. All it takes is a good attitude, persistence, hustling, and a certain amount of good looks (though I've seen it done by good hustlers who weren't what most would call a 9-10).
But I just think they don't seem to think they CAN make money without the "extras" and without giving "good" dancers because the club environment they saw as they entered the business, was owners looking the other way (and management) and customers telling them that this is what everyone does there....and/or if some of the girls there are already doing it, I just think that they learn to think that dancing is more of a sexual thing than a sensual thing. It's kinda sad really. New girls only learn what they see. And if there aren't any "showgirls" in the club where they are working at...how are they not only going to learn the "art" but learn that they can make just as much money doing things not so dirty?
I also think that it can go back to the way it was. As Wwanderer put it - a lot of customers are kinda "over" the high contact, and would rather go see a prostitute who will go all the way in private. He's not the only customer who's stated this. I had two other guys this week tell me the same thing. It's like a mini-backlash has started against the high contact. The upscale show clubs are doing a booming business, more are opening up all the time now (like in NYC), and if there wasn't a demand for this type of "just entertainment" then they wouldn't be building more of them. And if a girl has the things I mentioned above, and/or chooses to develop some tricks of the trade that don't involve snogging (lol) the customers, there's no reason why she can't work at a club, and do less for the same amount of money.
And as for the customers...they will take what they can get. I believe Vanilla Dog made a post along these lines a while back that explained this perfectly.
And to prove my point, when I've been in a club when LE came in and started giving out tickets to girls who weren't following the law, and the only way to dance would be to do a legal dance...all the girls were following the rules, and all of the customers were still getting dances. It happened that quickly. I've seen this in Austin and in Dallas. The customers immediately begin to take what they can get. I remember after the ordinance passed in Dallas and a lot of girls were scared that the money was going to go down. It was the opposite. I noticed my money skyrocketing, and so did a lot of the other girls. I figure the reason was because a lot of the "extras" girls were no longer taking up residence in the VIP, and had gone elsewhere to work in fear of getting caught and ticketed. The only girls who probably saw their income go down were those that couldn't adapt to the new situation. A lot of girls really DON'T know how to give a legal dance. When I walked into the dressing room in Austin, I actually had to explain to these girls what was going to be against the law, and what wasn't! And a few of them, even after this, still sat in the back and said "But what am I supposed to do during the dance?" LoL....sigh....



Djoser, I know I'll never convince you, but I think you're completely misrepresenting my point.
I'd like to know what gives any seller the right to dictate to any buyer what it is the buyer should want. Sure, the seller can tell the buyer to go elsewhere. But the seller can't then complain about her lack of business. (Of course, lots of people in this thread have convincingly argued that you CAN make a good living as a low-mileage stripper. If that's true, and this is just a disagreement about etiquette, then accept an apology but see my "PS" below. But I'm not sure it's true.) (NOTE to whoever talked about NYC: all the new "upscale" "gown" clubs here except PEC are DYING slow deaths. Also, you probably don't know that those new clubs were all opened on the premise that all the existing "gown" clubs except Privilege were going to have to close for failure to comply with newly amended zoning regs. The problem is, that didn't happen. In other words, the owners of the new clubs didn't open them in anticipation of an increase in demand. They expected the new clubs to be replacing clubs they thought, incorrectly, were going to have to close.)
Also, I may be misunderstanding you, but your constant kidding of my remark about archeologists suggests that you think it's funny to think that women who strip have a broad range of possible career choices. If that is what you mean, I think you're being more than a bit insulting and patronizing toward those women.
I really don't want to keep arguing, though. I guess I should be grateful that nobody's called me a "troll".
PS -- You'd never believe it from these posts, but I act extremely respectfully when I'm in clubs. I don't like crass insulting cretins any more than you do. I don't get the feeling that's all you're talking about, though. If it is, then we don't even disagree. Although I've got to tell you, for whatever it's worth, in my business, we all feel that abuse from clients is simply something we've got to put up with.





I’ve always bought stock in the theory that some people are “sensualists” and some are “sexualists”. Each type gets something a little different out of a private dance, which is why as a “sensualist“, I’m not too keen on dancers grinding my pelvis until it is raw. That is hardly sensual IMHO, but I could see what the “sexualist“ customer gets out of it. Unfortunately, most dancers seem to be shifting their style towards the latter type of customer.Originally Posted by VenusGoddess link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121592#msg1215 92 date=1087134300
True, and I think if a club would give their gals some basic training, they might see a positive impact in their bottom lines.Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121644#msg1216 44 date=1087142932
Originally Posted by VenusGoddess link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121669#msg1216 69 date=1087145933
One thing that I will point out is that we live in an environment that is a lot more sexually liberated than the one who preceded it. Visual titilation in the form of non-pornographic magazines, Britney Spears videos, and easily accessible porn via the internet is so abundant and cheap anymore that I can see where some guys don’t feel the need to spend money to see it at a strip club. Some guys logically are going to insist on investing their money on something that they can't get for far less, (if not free) in the outside world.Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121674#msg1216 74 date=1087147138
Something that I should point out about this “downward spiral” of sorts is that what is considered acceptable by one generation is relative to the time. Women who danced in strip clubs thirty years ago (when there were no private air dances, let alone lap dances) would most like be appalled at things that you ladies are so easily comfortable with today.
Former SCJ now in rehab.
Aye, though I'm the terrible new girl, who's only been in one club where grinding around in the law of the land - though I try not to make it "until your pelvis is raw" if a guy isn't being entertained by that, yeah, there are some guys that that is all they are there for, but the majority like a bit more intimacy.
Anyway, I personally think that if clubs DID a little bit of training, a little bit of rules enforcement and such, then possibly everything as low-contact could come back. Maybe. Possibly there would only be less customers except the most die-hard.
"I still have my name
I still have my face
I have not run away from home
Doesn't seem so long
If I now embrace
Every single thing I've never known"




Some people, including some highly respected participants in various online communities, believe that it is wrong to commodify certain services becaue it somehow (I don't really understand how, though) results in the commodification of the person providing those specific services. If such were the case, a seller (or someone else) might assert that there are certain things that a buyer should not even want to buy...because it is equivalent to wanting to buy (commodify) a person. Right?Originally Posted by Rath link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121823#msg1218 23 date=1087169917
-Ww
"At this moment what more need we seek?
As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
- Zazen Wasan



Melonie - are you talking about Mademoiselle's? I've never been there, but I remember hearing about it before.Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121451#msg1214 51 date=1087083416
And Rath - NYC has always been a place that has a "hot club" of the moment. When I first went there about ten years ago - Ten's (Stringfellow's) was the hot spot. Then it was Score's, then VIP a few years after that...then Score's again, and now PEC (forgive me if I didn't get the order exactly right or forgot anything, ten years is a long time...lol). I don't think that any of the clubs are going to go out of business anytime soon. They may not be the "hot spot" of the moment, but as in the case of Ten's, I bet they will still manage to keep their doors open. And a lot of the girls on this site who work at Scores still say they make pretty good money there. Maybe one or two of the new clubs will close in the next few years, but I think as a whole, the club business in the city has a pretty good future.
And believe it or not...many, many dancers choose to not provide heavy contact (even in high contact clubs), and still manage to make good money (as much as everyone else there...except for maybe the all out prostitutes) for all of the reasons that I've already stated. Just because you're into getting the "whole she-bang" so to speak...doesn't mean everyone else is. Some people just want a little entertainment and/or attention...and some would like to only get the "whole she-bang" in privacy.
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