WHEN WHAT THE BUYER WANTS IS ILLEGAL.Originally Posted by Rath link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121823#msg1218 23 date=1087169917





Luna noboby is saying new girls are a bad thing. I hope no one thinks I or anyone else begrudges a girl starting to dance! It's just that with no training, which is the standard now, the newbies are basically left to figure it all out on their own, which usually means alot of asshole customers have their way with them before they had the chance to learn how to sell without selling themselves short. Basically, management is ultimately to blame for the major downfall of this industry. Most customers don't give a rat's ass if they are putting everyone at risk for arrest and who-knows-what-else, but responsibility falls on the shoulders of management to make sure girls know what they're doing and that everyone stays in line.





Yes, Mademoiselle's. This is a great club to work at if you are a 10, but can be frustrating if you are only an 8 (assuming that they will hire a dancer who is an 8 in the first place).Melonie - are you talking about Mademoiselle's? I've never been there, but I remember hearing about it before.



I'm sure that person, whoever he may be, would answer that, from that point of view, one-on-one air dances are just as commodifying-hence-wrong as any other sexual service. Maybe moreso.Originally Posted by Wwanderer link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121909#msg1219 09 date=1087185903



Where I live, even light contact dances are probably ILLEGAL. There is not a single strip club in my city -- not even the highest-end show club -- where what goes on on the floor is inarguably legal.Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121962#msg1219 62 date=1087198389




You are almost certainly correct.Originally Posted by Rath link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg122085#msg1220 85 date=1087224113
-Ww
"At this moment what more need we seek?
As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
- Zazen Wasan



Brittany, thanks a lot for all that info. (If it's of any comfort to you, my own addled brain remembers the sequence of "it" clubs the same way you do.)Originally Posted by Brittany link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121943#msg1219 43 date=1087193433



My training classes are all about seduction (lol it's in the title of my web page). I don't teach the booty shake, fast, hard core dancing, etc. True, a lot of men prefer that, but I agree with getting this business back to the way it used to be.Originally Posted by VenusGoddess link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121592#msg1215 92 date=1087134300
When I demonstrate couch dances, I never do the bump and grind - it's all seductive and sensual - and that keeps my customers back there for multiple dances - the more you seduce, the more they want. If you make them want to wet themselves right away or give them crotch burn, you lose a lot of money.
Girls will pick up whatever they want from other girls, of course, but it's so nice to see someone that I just taught go on stage and stand out from the other girls that have had no training.
http://dancertraining.com
Save a horse, ride a cowboy



Anyway, Bridgette, this misses the point.Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121962#msg1219 62 date=1087198389
My point isn't that any dancer HAS to perform illegal services. OF COURSE SHE DOESN'T. You should only do what you're comfortable with. That goes without saying. (I hope.)
My point is that IF (that's "if": lotsa girls here have persuasively argued they can make a good living doing only low-contact dances) what most customers are willing to pay for are services (legal or not: it really doesn't matter) that a dancer is not willing to sell, then she's going to have to rethink her career choice. Same as in any profession.
Of course you can and should refuse to do things you think are wrong. But you can't insist that other people be willing to pay for whatever it is you think is right. That's THEIR choice.





I'm only speaking for my own preferences here, but amen to that.Originally Posted by Reg link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg122103#msg1221 03 date=1087224713
Often its what a dancer does with her eyes, and not with her thighs that matters. A little intermittent grinding never hurts, but that sort of thing has gotten way too clinical anymore.
Seduction is another matter entirely. I often find that its the flirting, the sexy voice, the eye contact, even how the dancer propositioned me for the sale that gets seared in my brain after I go home, and the great thing is that no two women do it alike. That's what keeps me coming back.
![]()
Former SCJ now in rehab.



See, I TOLD you about archeology.
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_983935.html?menu=





Brittany, It's pointless to try and explain this to those who are trying to maniuplate dancers into giving more contact.Originally Posted by Brittany link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg121943#msg1219 43 date=1087193433
That reality squashes their put out or get out theory





You are missing the point. If it's illegal, you have no legal right to ask for or expect it. Period. It has nothing to do with what I think is right, it has to do with you as a customer demanding illegal service for your money. Personally I don't have a problem with certain levels of contact, but I DO have a problem with risking arrest for $20. If what you say is correct, then it's ok to sell crack at school because the customers want it and ask for it. BS!Originally Posted by Rath link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg122117#msg1221 17 date=1087225619
If a dancer is not comfortable providing the illegal services many customers want, it most certainly is not the same as in any other profession where generally speaking, what the customers want is legal. Not even close.
I say again. My stance has nothing to do with what I think is "wrong". It has everything to do with not wanting to go to jail. Of course I don't do anything I'm not comfortable with, but frankly, in many instances I am perfectly comfortable with doing more than is by the book legal - I just don't feel like going to jail and being labeled a sex offender for the rest of my life because of it! Yeah I make good money doing relatively low-contact dances and generally less than what many other girls are doing in the same club. It takes a bit more work this way and frankly I find it really sad that so many girls are, IMO, too lazy to do it.





EXACTLY!!!!! But like I said to Brittany and I'm sure Bridgette knows, it's a waste of time to try and explain that to those whose agenda is to try and make dancers think the only way to make a living is do sky high mileageOriginally Posted by Bridgette link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg122297#msg1222 97 date=1087244495



[quote=Rath] My point is that IF (that's "if": lotsa girls here have persuasively argued they can make a good living doing only low-contact dances) what most customers are willing to pay for are services (legal or not: it really doesn't matter) that a dancer is not willing to sell, then she's going to have to rethink her career choice. Same as in any profession.
Of course you can and should refuse to do things you think are wrong. But you can't insist that other people be willing to pay for whatever it is you think is right. That's THEIR choice.
I really don't think that most strippers accross the country today are also prostitutes in disguise. So I guess OUR point is...since most of us aren't already prostitutes, most guys must not be demanding these services from their strippers. Maybe you do...whatever...and kudos to the prostitutes who are making money off of you (I'm not knocking them allthough I would prefer that the prostitutes take their business out of the strip clubs in order to prevent them being shut down).
What we have been talking about here I think...is the new girls in the business who are constantly pushing the envelope towards prostitution (even if the customer doesn't want it or ask for it..or pay "extra" for the extra). A lot of the girls in the business today just don't seem to get what sensuality is or seem to know that there are other ways besides snogging (lol..love that word), and getting down and dirty, with the customers to make money. And basically...we're griping because we're tired of it, and we're tired of the lack of management that doesn't give these girls any tips, advice, etc. Personally speaking, I'm a lot more tired of those two things that I have ever been of customers trying to be rude, pushy, etc. - which I have never let bother me very much.
Originally Posted by Rath link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg122117#msg1221 17 date=1087225619
No Bridgette is dead on Rath, you or any other customer does not have any right to expect or demand illegal sevices from dancers. Just like people don't have the right to demand a pharmacy give morphine without Dr. approval. There's alot of junkies out there that want to be able to go to Walgreens and pick up their drugs but that doesn't mean that Walgreens should go out of business because they won't sell morphine to any Tom, Dick or Harry.Originally Posted by Rath link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg122117#msg1221 17 date=1087225619
I swear if you guys spent half as much time improving yourselves as you do scheming on how to get a dancer to do extras you might not have to pay women for attention and sex.



All this talk about illegality is a ruse, a red herring.
In most places in this country, non-extras lap dances are illegal. Most of what every girl on this board does every day she works is illegal. In most places in this country, you could not make a living as a stripper without breaking the law every day you go to work.
If customers have no "right" to want extras cuz they're illegal, then they have no right to want lap dances, either, for the exact same reason.
Illegality CAN'T be what's bothering you.
I can think of lots of good reasons girls wouldn't want to engage in extras. The idea of getting intimate with strange unattractive middle-aged people skeeves me out, too. But PLEASE do us all the favor of being honest about your motivations.
To me, the last sentence of Laura's post says it all. You're contemptuous of us. I don't blame you. But here on the board (this isn't the club, where it's your job to be dishonest), don't fucking lie to us.





So now I'm a liar because I say I don't want to go to jail for $20? That was a jackass post Rath. Good job stooping to that levelOriginally Posted by Rath link=board=1;threadid=9987;start=msg122629#msg1226 29 date=1087314009
![]()
If my reason for not wanting to do extras had anything to do with being "skeeved out" or anything else you're trying to accuse me of directly or indirectly, I WOULDN'T BE DANCING AT ALL. You are totally offbase.




Gee... a guy talking black and white, and women arguing about the greys.. Yah, that doesn't happen often. <giggle>
Rath is arguing "legal risk" from the letter of the law, while the ladies are arguing "legal risk" from the standpoint of what's actually a real and tangible risk.
Rath-
You can do 60mph in a 55mph zone and claim no legal risk as the Highway Patrol just simply doesn't enforce this to the letter of the law... it's a grey area since the likelihood of local courts/judges have too low a chance of prosecuting (mechanical limits, accuracy, etc.etc.). This is much the same as vice/undercover cops in regions that have lewd conduct laws wont cite or arrest contact lapdances in regions where these may fall inline with what's to the letter of the law "illegal"...
Now 100mph .. or doing sex services in a stripclub... "legal risk" is a perfectly valid point of rationality since both are most definately going to be enforced, cited and penalized if caught.. and thus carry along a real and tangible risk.
It's a simple concept really... and does come down to black & white versus the grey.
It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.
ok, Rath, this is silly.
if you go to mcdonalds and order a hamburger, you cant get mad that they didnt give you cheese sticks, they dont have them, dont ask. if you want cheese sticks you have to arbys. they make them. deal with it.
if you go to a strip club and get a dance be happy with what she gives you. dont try to get her to do more. you can ask her what she does do, although she will make fun of you in the dressing room later. or better yet, get one dance and see if you like it. when you find a dancer who does give a 'dance' that you like, leagal or not, then keep getting dances from her. never try to pursuade a dancer to do somthing she dosnt offer.
try it...
ask mcdonalds for some cheese sticks...
see what kinda look they give you....
and ps... lap dances ARE legal. at least here they are.
pps, and yes I have not done many things because I didnt want a prostitution charge on my record. That can really mess up your life.





I wish I could have been a dancer back in the early 90's just to see how the industry is and has changed.
I love being on stage being a performer always finding ways to have more fun on stage for myself and for the customer back when I was dancing. I wish it was mostly a straight forward industry were extras and such never existed.
Ive worked at club where it is taboo to do extras as well as you being fired if anyone found out. And..others I was done right afraid to go to the VIP lounge upstairs after hearing what really goes on in there. at that specific club. I didnt want to provide that kind of "service" to customers. All I wanted to give of myself was some great conversation and an unforgettable dance. I wish it were that easy but its not. And, sometimes its upsetting that many girls will have to give out extra just to stay at the top of the money chain. Also, Ive never even been anywhere else that the west coast.
Guys will always ask a girl if she does "more"....I just wonder if that question has always been the same throughout the years of exotic dancing?
But, as far as crossing the line and offering the service of selling lap dances I thought it was always great..and an offer for me to make more than just the stage tips. Maybe I'm too young to see that you could have made a nights income just on the stage alone back in the day when stripping was new and sort of hush hush.
you live like an ivy vine
you can only survive by clinging onto trees
that's your flaw
put down some roots so you can stand on your own
-Kenpachi





Ah... you must've lucked out then... you must've happened upon Bad Girls.. you poor thing! I know for a fact that at the other three BETTER clubs (Crazy Horse, Players and Hollywood)... the dancers are most certainly allowed to touch you in the same places that you are allowed to touch the dancer.The strippers in Surfers Paradise, Queensland (Australia) will perform private dances for customers but they are not allowed to actually touch the customer. So, the guy sits down and she dances in front of him, for him.
I know that I touch the customer (won't touch your crotch just like you aren't allowed to touch mine mind you!).
I just wanted to clear that one up pronto even tho' this thread is now multiple pages deep and found in the "older" section.
Next time do not base your opinion on how the dancers dance just on one club alone. Make sure you have visited 3 of them at the very least.... considering there are 4 within walking distance of one another (same street) and a 5th "down the road" (walking distance).
Just FYI.![]()
enter: E3167322D9 for your 10% discount
Bookmarks