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Thread: The Rabbit Died.

  1. #26
    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by kitana link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg122921#msg12 2921 date=1087350784
    if you are preggers; it's still you body, your decision!
    I simply have to disagree. While pregnant with a baby you are keeping, you are hosting another living person in your body and that makes it THEIR body too, by default. Whatever health risks you take with your body, you are ALSO forcing on a person that has no choice in the matter. That's the EXACT same thing as tying someone down and shoving stuff down their throat. It may be YOUR child but I don't see the logic or "right" in putting your child at risk for your own selfish enjoyment. And yeah, I gotta say, it IS selfish.



    Polecat, we are talking in a general sense, and MOST strip clubs are horribly smoke-filled and nasty environments period. Most of us don't live in the land of smokeless bars (where the smoking dancers often still have a corner INSIDE the bar they smoke in, I've seen it myself). There are exceptions to everything, that goes without saying. Obviously the example of a smoking dancer inhaling less smoke at work because she happens to be one of the few who works in a "smokeless" bar is the exception, not the rule. Ok I've said my peace.

    /

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

  2. #27
    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg122987#msg12 2987 date=1087358342
    Polecat, we are talking in a general sense
    Yup yup! I agree with you 100%..

    High-heels, smoke, good chance of alcohol or drink sales, tricky stairs to the stage or dressing room, lapdances and whatnot are pretty much the 'general' sense of stripping.

    And on the topic of that fetus.. I personally believe it should be represented no different from a newborn baby outside of the body.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

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    Veteran Member Pisces3x3's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Its everyones own descision. Me personally, I would quit once I have found out.

    "While pregnant with a baby you are keeping, you are hosting another living person in your body and that makes it THEIR body too, by default. Whatever health risks you take with your body, you are ALSO forcing on a person that has no choice in the matter."

    I agree but not just in a physical sense. I think whatever energy you are surrounded by while pregnant will also affect the baby in a spiritual sense. At the club I work at I constantly feel negative energy from dancers, customers, etc and I would rather not be in that type of an evironment while pregnant. I hope at least one person understands what Im tryin to say hahah. Everyone believes in something different and has their own theories on things. In no way is this meant to be a fact... its just what I feel.

    "In my opinion, the minute a pregnant woman decides she&#039;s having the baby, she gives up ownership of her body to the baby until the baby is born." & "I personally believe it should be represented no different from a newborn baby outside of the body." <--- totally agree with these statements!
    You think you know... but you have no idea!

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    We seem to be dancing around the abortion debate,maybe thats for the best.
    I see the reasons aimed at the baby health issue,but what about the business end of it??
    Does having a obviousely pregnant woman on stage or on the floor as a waitress actually burst the bubble so to speak for a customer who is there for a sexual fantasy?

  5. #30
    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Well some customers have sexual fantasies about pregnant women, so in the context that it takes variety in the SC, no. But in the context that MOST guys get turned off by an obviously pregnant dancer, yes I think any girl who is obviously pregnant should not be allowed to work. Clubs should limit their rosters to attractive, at least reasonably in shape girls, including limiting pregnant girls. A girl who is 8.5 months pregnant should not even be in the club, ESPECIALLY not on stage. I know girls often need money when they&#039;re pregnant, but perhaps some better responsibility on the part of the dancer, BEFORE she sees two lines, would be in order. One should never wait til her period is late to think about "what if" - particularly dancers.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    I completely agree with Pisces and Bridgette. Wanting to have the "honor" of carrying a child to full term and yet still refusing the "responsibilty" of such an honor is just selfish.

  7. #32
    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by polecat link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg122874#msg12 2874 date=1087346728

    And lastly, I really cannot see other&#039;s pointing of compassion and concern for both a mother and her child&#039;s health, happiness and safety as being any level of discriminatory or judgemental.
    There is a vast difference between showing deserved compassion and concern and being a busybody. If Velvet, who is my friend, says, "Hon, you look a little peaked. Are you sure you&#039;re up to this?" then she is showing compassion and concern. If a housemom announces that a pregnant woman isn&#039;t allowed to work any more because she is worrying the other dancers, then that is being an unmitigated busybody.

    All this lack of discernment between the two stems, IMO, from viewing a pregnant woman and her baby as "communal property" and a misplaced idea that "being helpful and friendly" makes nosiness okay. "I was only trying to help.... Maybe she didn&#039;t know we were so worried..."

    Nope. Rude, rude, rude. This is the exact same thing as a stranger butting in on a pregnant woman&#039;s lunch and saying, "You aren&#039;t gonna eat that, are you?! It&#039;s not good for the baby.". Or, for that ,matter, the exact same thing as some yahoo butting in on us at work to say, "You do know you&#039;re going to hell for being a sinning slut, don&#039;t you? Jesus and I can help you."


    I hope everyone can see that in everyone&#039;s arguments and not leap to that as it hasn&#039;t been the case for anyone&#039;s post here. Alternatively, the real debate is simply everyone drawing a different line for what they consider that point of negligence- which I&#039;m sure *everyone* is actually correct by case example, it&#039;s just women and mothers, as well as our own personal experiences with this topic is going to vary wildly.
    Considering how many old wives&#039; tales I saw quotes here as reasons why pregnant women should have to do as they&#039;re told ("they shouldn&#039;t be in heels, they could fall and hurt the baby"), they are drawing these (rude) lines with wildly inaccurate information.

    And I hope you realize that all the compassion and misplaced friendliness and concern in the world does not negate the fact that deciding what is right for another grown-up person is, in fact, rude.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg122901#msg12 2901 date=1087348957
    Polecat, THANK YOU. In my opinion, the minute a pregnant woman decides she&#039;s having the baby, she gives up ownership of her body to the baby until the baby is born.
    And where exactly do we draw the line here on this slippery slope? If you can deem one adult person not capable of making their own decisions for their own body, then I&#039;d love to know who you plan to implement this upon next. How very Orwellian.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

  9. #34
    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg122987#msg12 2987 date=1087358342
    That&#039;s the EXACT same thing as tying someone down and shoving stuff down their throat.
    So instead of metaphorically tying down the baby, we&#039;ll just tie down the mother instead and force things down her throat. We&#039;ll take away her right to make her own decisions. We&#039;ll announce what is and is not good for her, what she is and is not allowed to do, or eat and when, and how much. We also retain the right to change these rules arbitrarily, just as soon as another study comes out. She is no longer her own living, breathing, thinking person with a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. She is now a mother, and we think she shouldn&#039;t have those rights because we believe she can&#039;t be trusted with them.

    Sounds totally fair. Seig heil!

    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg123197#msg12 3197 date=1087400382
    I completely agree with Pisces and Bridgette. Wanting to have the "honor" of carrying a child to full term and yet still refusing the "responsibilty" of such an honor is just selfish.
    Not obediently adhering to your definition of what she may and may not do does not qualify as being "irresponsible", unless by chance you went and got a degree in obstetrics without telling us. The uninformed opinion of one random member of the population does not replace the combined wisdom of an obstetric team. It is arrogant to call someone irresponsible when she might jolly well have her physician&#039;s blessings on whatever picky activity you don&#039;t like.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

  11. #36
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Well, let&#039;s not forget that this topic was started and asking for everybody&#039;s OPINION in regards to a pregnant woman dancing.

    I am a mommy, so I&#039;ve been through this. I KNOW the changes the body goes through. I do NOT walk up to other pregnant women and give them advice, a to do list and a no-no list. However, if a pregnant woman comes up to me and asks me specifically what my opinion is, I tell her...from my own experience. Walking in heels is not taboo when pregnant...walking in stripper heels (talking 7-8" platforms) while pregnant will only cause MORE possible injuries to the mom&#039;s back. And, it is a FACT that most pregnant women become more unsteady on their feet later in pregnancy (center of gravity change and increase of the hormone prolactin causes the joints to become more loose). It&#039;s just not healthy. Being in smoke all day is not healthy...not for full grown adults and most definitely not for a baby who is just developing.

    When a woman decides to have a baby, she is voluntarily giving up some of her body for the honor of doing so. To say, "I am a woman and can carry a child. I want to do this." And, then disrespecting the very changes of her body AND refusing to accept and acknowledge the very things that the forming baby does/does not need is pure selfishness and immaturity. There is no such thing as a "right to choose" after pregnancy. The time was before the woman got pregnant. If the woman is not willing to make life changes while she is carrying another forming life, then her choice should simply be not to conceive and carry a child. If she still wants a baby, then there are plenty of children that need a family that she can adopt.

    But, we&#039;re getting of onto another tangent. Being nosey only happens when you walk up to someone and give them your opinion whether or not you were asked. Being concerned is when someone asks for your opinion...and you give them your honest opinon.

    from: Bridgette on Yesterday at 08:22:37pm
    Polecat, THANK YOU. In my opinion, the minute a pregnant woman decides she&#039;s having the baby, she gives up ownership of her body to the baby until the baby is born.
    And, if the mom chooses to breast feed, until the baby is weened off the breast.


  12. #37
    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg123220#msg12 3220 date=1087403080
    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg123197#msg12 3197 date=1087400382
    I completely agree with Pisces and Bridgette. Wanting to have the "honor" of carrying a child to full term and yet still refusing the "responsibilty" of such an honor is just selfish.
    Not obediently adhering to your definition of what she may and may not do does not qualify as being "irresponsible", unless by chance you went and got a degree in obstetrics without telling us. The uninformed opinion of one random member of the population does not replace the combined wisdom of an obstetric team. It is arrogant to call someone irresponsible when she might jolly well have her physician&#039;s blessings on whatever picky activity you don&#039;t like.
    Smoking while pregnant is a blatant no-no...drinking while pregnant has shown problems in the children that were subjected to it. Being irresponsible is being irresponsible. Don&#039;t be dense. Common sense is all that is needed. I do not judge someone on their own choices. I simply make an observation. Women who blatantly DISREGARD the very well-being of their unborn child are being irresponsible. If you KNOW that something can harm your child and yet refuse to put a stop to it...it&#039;s irresponsibility. My definitions of "right/wrong" have nothing to do with it. I quit eating tuna when I was pregnant...because of the mercury levels that COULD have been in it. I felt, for my baby, it was not a chance I was willing to take. It would have been IRRESPONSIBLE for me to acknowledge the risk and to take it anyways because I love tuna and have a tuna sandwich every day. If you know that something is harmful or has the potential to cause harm in the child...why risk it? It IS the woman&#039;s decision (selfish as it may be) but in the end, it is what it is...to know/suspect something and to do nothing is pure irresponsibility. Plain and simple.

  13. #38
    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg123222#msg12 3222 date=1087403203
    Well, let&#039;s not forget that this topic was started and asking for everybody&#039;s OPINION in regards to a pregnant woman dancing.
    And the opinions that I am seeing are that any and every person a pregnant woman comes across has ,more right to decide for her body and baby than she does, or even her own physician does. My opinion is that this is rude, arrogant and nosy.


    I do NOT walk up to other pregnant women and give them advice, a to do list and a no-no list.
    You don&#039;t, but other people do. They hold the same beliefs as you do; that a pregnant woman does not have ownership of her body, cannot make her own decisions half so well as others can, and that what her physician deems appropriate is not near so important as what other&#039;s deem appropriate (feel free to clarify if this is not your position, but it is what I am understanding from the posts). It&#039;s not a bit step to go from thinking this to acting on it, especially coming from the position that you know better than she does.



    However, if a pregnant woman comes up to me and asks me specifically what my opinion is, I tell her...from my own experience. Walking in heels is not taboo when pregnant...walking in stripper heels (talking 7-8" platforms) while pregnant will only cause MORE possible injuries to the mom&#039;s back. And, it is a FACT that most pregnant women become more unsteady on their feet later in pregnancy (center of gravity change and increase of the hormone prolactin causes the joints to become more loose). It&#039;s just not healthy. Being in smoke all day is not healthy...not for full grown adults and most definitely not for a baby who is just developing.
    It is a FACT that there are many dangers associated with lots of things, and that it is the right of any grown adult to make their own decision with the help of a qualified professional. It is also a fact that total lack of exercise is not good for pregnant women, and that most doctors feel that careful physical activity is far better than sitting on your bum for the entire nine months. Doing nothing at all because of the risk of physical activity can result in gestational diabetes, toxemia and more difficult labors.


    When a woman decides to have a baby, she is voluntarily giving up some of her body for the honor of doing so. To say, "I am a woman and can carry a child. I want to do this." And, then disrespecting the very changes of her body AND refusing to accept and acknowledge the very things that the forming baby does/does not need is pure selfishness and immaturity. There is no such thing as a "right to choose" after pregnancy. The time was before the woman got pregnant. If the woman is not willing to make life changes while she is carrying another forming life, then her choice should simply be not to conceive and carry a child. If she still wants a baby, then there are plenty of children that need a family that she can adopt.
    It&#039;s nice to consider what things would be like in your idea of utopia. In my idea of utopia there would be less emphasis on the sterilized hospital experience, home visits, lactation consultants for all from the seventh month on, and more adoptions from orphanages than people looking for that perfect white baby. But this is reality, where I am content to allow adults to handle their own affairs with the help of a professional rather than turning over a large segment of the population to the indifferent hands of societal whims.


    And, if the mom chooses to breast feed, until the baby is weened off the breast.
    And the slippery slope widens. Pray tell, who else shall we include in the ever-widening scope of people who should be under the control of others? And who exactly decides who gets to be in control of them? It is equally as likely that it would not be strippers in control, but some other party. I can see Christians arguing along these same lines, that everyone should be forced to go to church because it isn&#039;t good for the children to grow up without Jesus in their lives.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Hey, I&#039;m just stating my opinion. I&#039;m certainly not trying to say that the ultimate decision of what and how much risk to take as an expentant mother should be placed anywhere but with the mother. I just think that, when you have a child outside the womb you give up alot of what was previously strictly your choice in order to see the child is well taken care of, likewise you do the same when carrying the child in your belly.

    I most certainly do NOT run around butting into a woman&#039;s business no matter what I may think she is doing right or wrong where her child is concerned - it&#039;s not my place. I don&#039;t agree with anyone else doing so either. (except of course if she&#039;s doing something REALLY bad like feeding rat poison to the baby - you bet I&#039;d be all over it then)

    Finally, I made a point of specifying that this is my position regarding a woman who is having the baby. I just don&#039;t see how one can sit there and honestly say that carrying a baby doesn&#039;t change a woman&#039;s responsibilities to that of putting the baby FIRST when making decisions concerning "her body". Everything a pregnant woman does with her body affects the baby she&#039;s carrying so out of concern for the baby I think she should generally put her desires aside because for the time being her decisions affect directly another person besides just HER. Of course if a woman is pregnant and planning an abortion I reckon she ought to go right ahead with whatever she wants to do with her body because THEN it has no affect on anyone but HERSELF.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

  15. #40
    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg123252#msg12 3252 date=1087407084
    Hey, I&#039;m just stating my opinion. I&#039;m certainly not trying to say that the ultimate decision of what and how much risk to take as an expentant mother should be placed anywhere but with the mother.
    Thank you. This is exactly what I wanted to hear. It is positively scary for any woman of childbearing age to hear talk of, say, a housemom deciding that you can&#039;t work any more because the other dancers are worried. From there, the possibilities are endless.

    There isn&#039;t a jolly thing wrong with thinking, "I certainly hope she&#039;s talked about this with her doctor" or something along those lines. I&#039;ve been in the position of silent disapproval and I&#039;m know people have been in the same position regarding me at times. I merely cannot state in strong enough terms how much I disapprove of that silent worry and concern being taken a step further without being called for.

    I just think that, when you have a child outside the womb you give up alot of what was previously strictly your choice in order to see the child is well taken care of, likewise you do the same when carrying the child in your belly.
    We&#039;re in full agreement on this. The joys of parenting are many but with the joys come specific obligations. It is disheartening that some people cannot or chose not to live up to those expectations, but we have to allow the autonomy to make bad decisions lest we all lose personal rights. You&#039;ve made careful references to abortion, so I will mention that this is the response I give in abortion debates as well. Both childbearing and the decision not to are a right and a priviledge. That some people abuse their rights and priviledges is a travesty, but is no reason to limit those who act wisely.


    I most certainly do NOT run around butting into a woman&#039;s business no matter what I may think she is doing right or wrong where her child is concerned - it&#039;s not my place. I don&#039;t agree with anyone else doing so either. (except of course if she&#039;s doing something REALLY bad like feeding rat poison to the baby - you bet I&#039;d be all over it then)
    I might be a little prejudiced on this score, I&#039;ll confess that freely. It has ever been a vast annoyance of mine that pregnant women are subject to well-meant but rude intrusions. Perfect strangers fondling the belly, intensely personal and inappropriate questions, reams of bad advice, nagging and relating every horror story someone&#039;s ever heard. Being pregnant is taxing enough without the burden of fending off the general public.


    So it seems that we are in agreement. All is well in the world again, lol.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg123236#msg12 3236 date=1087404851
    And the opinions that I am seeing are that any and every person a pregnant woman comes across has ,more right to decide for her body and baby than she does, or even her own physician does. My opinion is that this is rude, arrogant and nosy.
    No, no one has more say over what a pregnant woman does than that woman herself. Everyone has an opinon...in the end, obviously, the woman is going to do whatever she wants. And, what, pray tell, gives the physician more say over what other people say? Could it be that he knows more? Or simply because you are willing to listen to him/her? I KNOW what it&#039;s like to walk down the street, waddle actually, and having people come up and touch my belly and start dispensing advice. Usually, I just took it in stride. I was proud of my bulging belly and I was happy that people took an interest in my baby. Does that mean that I did everything everyone told me? No, but I did express my thanks for them taking the time to share their experience with me. If you want to think that people are being arrogant, nosey, and rude...then you are going to have a miserable pregnancy. Every pregnant mother goes through it. It just depends on how you want to color the experience. You don&#039;t have to agree with or listen to what everyone says...but, I&#039;ll tell ya...some "strangers" have given me better advice than my doctor did when it came to the labor...or even when it came to breastfeeding. There are some things that "qualified professionals" do not know.

    You don&#039;t, but other people do. They hold the same beliefs as you do; that a pregnant woman does not have ownership of her body, cannot make her own decisions half so well as others can, and that what her physician deems appropriate is not near so important as what other&#039;s deem appropriate (feel free to clarify if this is not your position, but it is what I am understanding from the posts). It&#039;s not a bit step to go from thinking this to acting on it, especially coming from the position that you know better than she does.
    Ok...first of all, I NEVER said that a woman gives up ownership of her body to outside individuals. Sure, she can make her own decisions...however, more and more I am seeing women blatantly disregarding the very needs of the baby throughout the pregnancy. What others deem as important does not matter. It is what THE MOTHER deems as important. HOWEVER, the most important thing for the mother to do is to educate herself. KNOW the changes, KNOW the needs, KNOW the process. MAKE the decisions that are right for her and her baby. To ignore, disregard, disrespect common sense and irreputable advice is to be irresponsible. To disregard the very changes in your body and do what you need to do to accommodate those changes for your own health is plain foolishness.


    It is a FACT that there are many dangers associated with lots of things, and that it is the right of any grown adult to make their own decision with the help of a qualified professional. It is also a fact that total lack of exercise is not good for pregnant women, and that most doctors feel that careful physical activity is far better than sitting on your bum for the entire nine months. Doing nothing at all because of the risk of physical activity can result in gestational diabetes, toxemia and more difficult labors.
    Sure...there are inherent dangers in the very act of breathing. However, if you KNOW of something to have in INCREASED chance in causing trauma to yourself and your baby, why do it? Did I say that the pregnant woman can&#039;t do it? No, I simply stated that by doing so, she is ignoring a very real fact. She is increasing the likelihood of damage to her own body and as a side result, damage to her developing baby.

    It&#039;s nice to consider what things would be like in your idea of utopia. In my idea of utopia there would be less emphasis on the sterilized hospital experience, home visits, lactation consultants for all from the seventh month on, and more adoptions from orphanages than people looking for that perfect white baby. But this is reality, where I am content to allow adults to handle their own affairs with the help of a professional rather than turning over a large segment of the population to the indifferent hands of societal whims.
    Why depend on a "qualified professional"? Why do you feel that you need to do even that? Having a baby is not a science it&#039;s an experience in using common sense. And, not all "qualified" professionals give good advice. I had my baby in a hospital and that will never, ever happen again. And, I ignored my "qualified professional" about inducing my labor when my baby did not "arrive on time". In fact, my daughter was three weeks late. After much thought, I decided that it was best for my baby to wait. I went to the doc and had fetal monitoring and making sure that all was ok...and since it was, I went against the doctor&#039;s suggestion and waited. When we were in a car accident and my water bag was ripped, the chance of infection increased, the next day I obliged and let them induce my labor. Just because someone has a degree does not make them more knowledgable about your body. The woman who takes care of herself and knows her body and every little change in it (like I do) know more about themselves than any doctor ever could. Women who listen to what that "inner voice" tells them and follow that "feeling" are better off. Women who go to the doctor for check-ups and ask eons of questions, listens to what the doctor says and then goes to the library and checks out every single book about childbearing, labor, and so on are better off. They are better off because they are gaining knowledge to associate with what their bodies/babies are going through. They are aware. A lot of women these days go through their whole pregnancies unaware and ignorant and just barely follow the advice of the "qualified professional". Like I said before...it&#039;s not about judging people...it&#039;s not about following the advice of every person you come into contact with. It&#039;s about being open and learning. Don&#039;t like the advice you hear? Ignore it. It&#039;s your choice. But, "having an inkling" that something is not good for you or your baby and doing it anyways is, as I said before, irresponsible.

    If you want a baby, then you need to learn responsibility. You need to learn accountability. People talk about how having a child changed their lives...but, it&#039;s usually in a negative context. Women feel resentful that they have to "give up" certain things...so they don&#039;t do it (smoking, drinking, etc). They feel resentful that their bodies are being "stretched" out and gaining weight...so they don&#039;t eat like they should and they do all kinds of crazy weight loss gimmicks after the baby is born in an effort to "get it all back". Or they think that since they are pregnant they can gain all the weight they want without a care what eating 4 pies for dinner will do to the baby. Until women accept the responsibility for having a baby...they have no business of having one.

    You want a Utopia? So do I. My utopia is that women will be aware of their bodies and will make the decision that they will not have children until they are ready to make the changes. It&#039;s a place that no one will need to say anything because the women will KNOW what needs to be done, they will ACCEPT the RESPONSIBILITY for it, and they will do it.

    These are my opinions and my experiences. If you do not agree with them, then that&#039;s fine. Someone asked me for MY opinion and I gave it freely. Take what you can use and leave the rest.

  17. #42
    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg123278#msg12 3278 date=1087410122

    And, what, pray tell, gives the physician more say over what other people say? Could it be that he knows more? Or simply because you are willing to listen to him/her?
    A physician went to school for many years to acquire the sort of knowledge that most people simply do not have, in addition to being responsible for the well-being of those under their care. My Grandma bore and raised several children as well as having an abundance of good sense. The credentials of some housemom/co-worker/person on the street are not verifiable as being half so good. I find it foolish to give weight to medical advice from someone not personally vested in your well-being who got their information from goodness knows where. Don&#039;t you?


    If you want to think that people are being arrogant, nosey, and rude...then you are going to have a miserable pregnancy. Every pregnant mother goes through it.
    So now the onus of the rudeness of others lies on the pregnant woman herself. Perhaps this is why people feel so free to ask if you planned it, whether you know how that sort of thing happens, if you were on birth control, if you know who the father is, to comment that their neighbor puffed up just like you are and that the neighbor&#039;s baby died, to say that most men think about cheating when their wives get really far along or to violate the personal space of others. Perhaps this is why "every pregnant woman goes through it".

    But of course, if such obnoxious behaviour bothers you then you&#039;re just being too sensitive.


    You don&#039;t have to agree with or listen to what everyone says...but, I&#039;ll tell ya...some "strangers" have given me better advice than my doctor did when it came to the labor...or even when it came to breastfeeding. There are some things that "qualified professionals" do not know.
    And it probably amounts to a lot less than the "qualified stranger" doesn&#039;t know. Far better to see a lactation consultant than to believe your MIL who claims that your breasts are too small to feed the baby. Discounting those who have confirmed knowledge because they might not know something, in favor of taking the word of any co-worker or stranger with unconfirmed knowledge seems rather bass-ackward.


    Ok...first of all, I NEVER said that a woman gives up ownership of her body to outside individuals.
    You quoted Bridgette as saying "she gives up ownership of her body to the baby until the baby is born", bold-faced it and then added that you think she also needs to give up ownership until after the baby is weaned as well. Direct quote.


    Don&#039;t be dense.
    And now you&#039;re stooping to insults. If this is your reaction to opposing views, then perhaps you should brush up on debating tactics before jumping in next time.

    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

  18. #43
    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Ok I was saying I think an expectant mother basically gives up ownership of her body to her baby, not to anyone else ie, nosy neighbors or whoever. That she should consider her body as being her baby&#039;s body while she is carrying, because it basically is. Everything she puts into her body goes to the baby also. Everything she does with her body affects the baby directly. So it&#039;s like she is temporarily acting as her baby&#039;s body while he/she develops into his/her OWN body.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

  19. #44
    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg123366#msg12 3366 date=1087417221
    A physician went to school for many years to acquire the sort of knowledge that most people simply do not have, in addition to being responsible for the well-being of those under their care. My Grandma bore and raised several children as well as having an abundance of good sense. The credentials of some housemom/co-worker/person on the street are not verifiable as being half so good. I find it foolish to give weight to medical advice from someone not personally vested in your well-being who got their information from goodness knows where. Don&#039;t you?
    I said that a WOMAN SHOULD KEEP AN OPEN MIND ABOUT THE ADVICE SHE IS BEING GIVEN BY ANY ONE GIVING THE ADVICE. That does not mean that she has to follow it or agree with it. Sometimes, random people relay an experience that can be helpful within your own experience. Especially for women who have never had a child before. Now...doctors who have gone to school for many years for their degree but that does not mean they know everything. NOW...a lot of doctors are good docs, but that does not mean that they are always right. It does not mean that they are the be all, end all for everything. What I advocate is educating yourself...listening to the doctor...listening to what other people tell you. Putting it all together and doing what is right for you. Using common sense. If someone says something that does not "feel" right, just let it pass. But, if someone says something that FEELS right, then explore that. I am not advocating the women chuck the experience of the doctor completely, but that she educate herself with the doctor, and the "common sense" advice of people around her.

    I will relay my own experience here. I was adamant that I would have a completely natural birth...no drugs, nothing. When I told my doctor that, he laughed and said, "All first time mothers want that, but to be honest with you, only 20% actually suceed with it." Hospitals these days WANT you to get an epidural. Throughout my pregnancy, I got every single book on labor and delivery. Read everything I could get my hands on. Someone had an experience to relay? I listened to that, too. I asked questions of everyone. In the end, I ended up being induced...and I still did my labor/delivery drug free. I am convinced that the majority of women today have problems with pregnancy, labor, and delivery because they do not find it important to educate themselves and find the method that would work best for them. Labor is NOT easy...not by any means...but if you know the process and understand the process, it makes it much easier. You learn how to work with your body.

    Education is the key.


    So now the onus of the rudeness of others lies on the pregnant woman herself. Perhaps this is why people feel so free to ask if you planned it, whether you know how that sort of thing happens, if you were on birth control, if you know who the father is, to comment that their neighbor puffed up just like you are and that the neighbor&#039;s baby died, to say that most men think about cheating when their wives get really far along or to violate the personal space of others. Perhaps this is why "every pregnant woman goes through it".
    If someone is asking questions that you feel uncomfortable with, you simply tell them, "Excuse me. You are asking questions that are a little too personal. Thanks for your interest, but I would prefer not to answer." If you do not like what they are saying, walk away. NOW, if an older lady walk up to you and congratulates you and says, "Oh, well, when I was in the beginning stages of labor, I walked it out while deep breathing. It helped ease the back tension that comes along with labor. It also helped when my husband...". Or when a woman says, "Just make sure that you don&#039;t eat or drink anything with this herb in it. It can help bring on premature labor." Why not listen to what she has to say? If it&#039;s something that may help you, why not take the advice? Look into it...talk with people about it, ask questions, and explore what they did. Obviously, if you are wanting a completely natural birth with no drugs what-so-ever, it is going to be important to get as much knowledge as you can. I found the advice of strangers quite helpful in the quest for more knowledge. If it&#039;s not for you, then don&#039;t do it.

    And it probably amounts to a lot less than the "qualified stranger" doesn&#039;t know. Far better to see a lactation consultant than to believe your MIL who claims that your breasts are too small to feed the baby. Discounting those who have confirmed knowledge because they might not know something, in favor of taking the word of any co-worker or stranger with unconfirmed knowledge seems rather bass-ackward.
    Sure...but, some new moms don&#039;t know about lactation consultants. And, if they do, not all insurance covers it (mine didn&#039;t) and they are expensive. I had a clogged milk duct...called my doc...gave me a way to take care of it...didn&#039;t work. Said I was probably going to need to go in and get antibiotics...blah, blah, blah. It would have ended my ability to nurse my daughter. That was not what I wanted, and I was sure that there was another way to aleviate the clogged duct. So, I setting an appoinment for 4 days later, went in search of a natural way for the "cure". I went to the store to buy another breast pump and saw a woman there who was talking about her daughter having the same problem. I asked her for more information and got it from her. Through talking with her, I found Le Leche League--which is free advice and support. So, sometimes "unconfirmed" knowledge is a great stepping stone to confirmed knowledge.

    You quoted Bridgette as saying "she gives up ownership of her body to the baby until the baby is born", bold-faced it and then added that you think she also needs to give up ownership until after the baby is weaned as well. Direct quote.
    Maybe you didn&#039;t quite understand what was being referenced. By giving up "ownership", I was referring to her considering her body as being her baby&#039;s body as well. And, since, while she is nursing (breastfeeding) the baby, everything that she eats, drinks, and otherwise puts into her body will go to the baby, too; that the same consideration she gave the baby during gestation, she would need to give while nursing. Giving up ownership was not meant that she put what she believes is best for her baby to the wind while everyone else tells her what to do. It means considering her body as communal property between herself and the baby.


  20. #45
    Senior Member SexxxySierra's Avatar
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    Default Re:The Rabbit Died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brittany link=board=27;threadid=10136;start=msg122656#msg12 2656 date=1087319177


    And again...as for the high heels, I find that to be a bit ridiculous, for the reasons I stated in my post above. It&#039;s just another excuse.
    Pregnancy does throw your body off balance though....but personally, I don&#039;t think I would have ever thought to worry about the high heels part!

    I did not dance when I was pregnant (I gained way too much weight for that!) but right now I&#039;m working with a girl whose 3rd baby is due the end of July/ early august. She is beautiful and has the perfect pregnant body...cute as can be. And yet, she tells guys she&#039;s swollen from having "stomach surgery". I can&#039;t imagine they believe it for a second...I think she&#039;d be better off just telling them the truth and being proud of her pregnant body. I really like her, and I figure if she&#039;s comfortable out there then more power to her. It doesn&#039;t bother me. What does bother me is that she sits in the dressing room and smoked Newports.

    I agree with whoever said when you are pregnant your body is no longer your own. I found out I was pregnant with my son on the day my period was late and that was it. It wasn&#039;t even a question. I had been a heavy pot smoker and light cigarette smoker...stopped it all cold turkey that very day. I strongly believe that if I could do it, anyone can.
    I don&#039;t get the arguments about "I smoked and my kid is great". Yeah, well you were lucky. But you were playing russian roulette with your baby&#039;s very life! (Smoking is related to miscarriages, stillbirth, and increased risk of SIDS...amongst other things.) Just like not all babies of moms who do drugs or drink end up having problems...that doesn&#039;t mean getting drunk and high are safe ideas. SO many things can go wrong in a pregnancy and most of them we have no control over. Our bodies are working very hard to grow a whole brand new person! Why not decrease any risks you can for your baby? I just don&#039;t understand the logic. You wouldn&#039;t stick a smoke in your newborns mouth, right? Almost everything that enters the moms body enters the baby&#039;s. Besides...we all know how bad smoking is for us. Being someone&#039;s mom is a pretty good reason to take good care of yourself as well.

    I did smoke again eventually after my son was born...but never in the house (later on when he was older, i would let people smoke out the windows with a fan blowing out). I quit last summer though because my son - now 8 - begged me to. He said he didn&#039;t want me to die. I was never a heavy smoker, but it still wasn&#039;t particularly easy to quit. Everytime the urge struck I would just picture his face (still do this sometimes) and that would help me get through it. I quit for him. I quit because he loves me enough to care and worry that something could happen to me.

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