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Thread: The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

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    Default The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    ... this time threatening to behead a South Korean hostage in response to South Korea sending troops to Iraq.

    IMHO these Islamic extremist bastards are making a huge mistake by expecting the same reaction they managed to get out of socialist Spain to withdraw troops from the "semi-right wing" government like South Korea. These highly publicized beheadings are not only forcing virtually every non middle eastern country in the world to acknowledge and view the Islamic extremists as butchers, murderers and thugs.

    But they are also starting to alienate the base of support the Fundamentalist Fanatics desparately need from "regular folks" living in the middle east. Even more importantly, these atrocities are starting to force the hand of so far "neutral" islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Algeria to take strong action against the Islamic fundamentalist fanatics themselves for fear of losing control of their own countries and being perceived by the rest of the world as openly supporting terrorism.

    Middle east countries that persist in supporting Islamic terrorists are beginning to get the message that a "paper border" is not going to protect them from retaliation. Today's news story about israelis crossing the Lebanese border to root out terrorists lobbing shells into Israel sent a pretty clear message.

    What worries me the most is actually Iran - who was proven to have "disappeared" a nuclear weapons facility a few days before UN inspectors were due to make a sweep (a pretty good indication that Iran now has nuclear capability), and who is massing thousands and thousands of troops on the Iran/Iraq border. If the terrorists start really taking a beating, it's distinctly possible that Iran will turn these troops loose into Iraq where they will vastly outnumber coalition forces.

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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Get used to it.

    This is only the beginning of a long, brutal, bloody struggle.

    Islam is peace.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125439#msg125 439 date=1087775449
    Get used to it.

    This is only the beginning of a long, brutal, bloody struggle.

    Islam is peace.
    <dry heave> LOL

  4. #4
    Pamela
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Don&#039;t know. Saw thew guy on the news when i came home from work tonite.

    It&#039;s time to pull our troops out. Really. Take care of the US.

    Pamela

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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125439#msg125 439 date=1087775449

    Islam is peace.
    I sincerely hope you&#039;re being sarcastic. These are extremists and do not represent the values of Islam.

    Remember the Crusades? Christ is love.
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125439#msg125 439 date=1087775449
    Get used to it.

    This is only the beginning of a long, brutal, bloody struggle.

    Islam is peace.
    World War III already is in play... the United States is just starting to find it&#039;s self in it, just like we sat by during WWII until dragged in by Pearl Harbor.

    By the way - they have been beheading christians and hindu&#039;s for years now. This is part and parcel to their way of doing business. We never heard about it from our Britney Spears obsessed media until it was our own getting their heads ripped off their bodies by hunting knives.

    Here is a listing of fronts the Islamic Fascists have been deploying across the world and they all don&#039;t include the US. It seems this ideaology and secret army is stirring up trouble with all their neighbors.

    ---

    AFGHANISTAN: The war in Afghanistan is ongoing. Since Soviet troops withdrew, various Afghan groups have tried to eliminate their rivals. Although the Taliban strengthened their position in 1998 they have not achieved their final objective. Afghanistan harbours Osama bin Ladin, a wealthy Saudi Arabia dissident responsible for terrorist acts around the world. On 11 September 2001 members from bin Ladin&#039;s el Qaeda group highjacked 4 passenger jets in the USA, crashing one into the Pentagon and 2 into the World Trade Center, killing more than 2,000 citizens. The USA and its allies declared war on terrorism and counter-attacked, removing the Taliban from power. The war on terrorism and the el Qaeda continues.

    ALGERIA: Armed Islamic groups formed and since 1992 have carried out attacks on key economic points, security forces, officials and foreigners. In 1995 Algeria&#039;s first multiparty presidential elections were held and the incumbent president Liamine Zeroual won 60% of the votes in a poll with a 75% turnout. The first multiparty legislative elections were held in June 1997 which were won by the National Democratic Rally, which holds the majority of seats along with the FLN. Although the armed wing of the FIS declared a ceasefire in October 1997, an extremist splinter group, the Islamic Armed Group (GIA), continued attacks. There is also evidence that many attacks are carried out by militias backed by the Algerian security forces. After years of civil strife, Amnesty International estimates that around 80,000 people have died
    The Caucasus and Russia: The Central Asian republics have a long history of conflicts. Fighting breaks out regularly between warlords and religious groups calling for the establishment of Islamic states outside the Russian Federation. Russia is trying to hold on to the federation because the Caucasus is a vital supply route for the oil riches of the Caspian and Black Sea. With the break-up of the Soviet Union various groups fought for control in the republics. Conflicts from one republic spills over to the other and they continually blame each other for attacks. Chechnya, still part of Russia, was flung in an almost full-scale war in 1994-96 and, after a disastrous campaign, Russia was forced to re-evaluate its involvement in the area. In August 1999 Russia stepped up security in the Caucasus region as rebels from within Dagestan - a small republic where more than 100 languages are spoken - went on the attack in support of Chechnyan Muslim groups who claim independence from Russia. In September 1999 Russia launched a ground invasion into the area to cut rebels off from Central Asian supply routes. By January 2000 Russia was once again involved in a full scale conflict in Chechnya. The Caucasus issue is complicated by the more than 50 different ethnic groups each insisting to proclaim their religious convictions on the area. The situation holds serious danger for neighbouring countries, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Russia itself.

    EYGPT: Fundamentalist Muslim rebels seek to topple the secular Egyptian government. At least 1,200 people have perished since the beginning of the rebellion. The conflict was primarily waged as an urban guerrilla/terrorist war. The opposition Muslim Brotherhood took part in elections in 2000, indicating that they felt armed force would not work.

    INDONESIA: The struggle on the Indonesia islands is complicated by leaders of pro- and anti-independence movements, and by religious conflicts. More than 500 churches have been burned down or damaged by Muslims over the past six years. Both the Christians and Muslims blame each other for the violence and attempts at reconciliation made little progress. After a bloody struggle East Timor gained independence in 1999. The hostilities on other islands continue to claim dozens of lives, to such an extent that the break-up of Indonesia seem imminent.

    INDIA/PAKISTAN: Muslim separatists in the Indian section declared a holy war against the mostly-Hindu India and started attacks in 1989, mainly from Pakistan-occupied section of Kashmir, and from Pakistan and Afghanistan. The conflict continues, with Pakistan also crushing rebellions with brute force in their section.

    IRAQ: Supports Islamic terrorist acts around the world. Differing culture and religious groups within Iraq continues to clash with Shiite Muslims.

    ISRAEL: Within its own borders, Israel continues to battle various Muslim organizations that seek independence for a Palestine state, areas made up of the Gaza strip, West.Bank, and part of Jerusalem. There is heavy international pressure on Israel to recognise a Palestinian state. The area of what today is Palestine was settled by Semitic tribes at a very early date. It was then called Canaan, and controlled by Canaanite tribes for more than 1,000 years. In about 1500 BC Hebrew, or Jewish, tribes began to enter the area. They later came into conflict with a people of Greek origin known as the Philistines. It is from them that the term Palestine is derived.

    IRAN: After the Iranian Revolution in 1979 toppled the government of the Shah, the Mujahadeen Khalq soon began a bloody guerrilla war against the new Islamic government. The Mujahadeen are currently based in Iraq and conduct cross-border raids into Iran, as well as conducting urban guerrilla operations in the cities and conducting political assassinations. Iran occasionally launches raids against Khalq bases in Iraq.

    KOSOVO: The ethnic Albanian KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) in this Serbian province fought a guerilla war against Serbia to claim the region. Beginning in February 1999, Albanians were forced out of the province, prompting NATO to attack Serbia. By July 1999 Serb troops were forced out of Kosovo, only to open an avenue for Albanian Kosovars to attack Serb Kosovars. The Albanian Muslims have since burned down dozens of centuries-old Christian churches. In an effort to establish a Greater Albania, Albanian Muslim rebels also launched attacks in Macedonia.

    NIGERIA: There are violent religious clashes in the city of Kaduna in northern Nigeria beginning February 21 2004 and have continued. Kaduna is the second largest city in the north. The clashes followed a march by tens of thousands of Christians to protest the proposal to introduce Muslim sharia law as the criminal code throughout Kaduna state. Reports speak of rival armed gangs of Christians and Muslims roving the streets. Churches and mosques have been put to the torch. Corpses were seen lying in the streets and people&#039;s bodies hanging out of cars and buses, apparently killed while attempting to flee the violence. Local human rights workers said that more than 400 had been killed as a result of the clashes.

    SUDAN: The largest country in Africa, has been plagued by a succession of unstable civilian and military governments since it gained independence in 1956 from an Anglo-Egyptian condominium. The long-running conflict continues between the Arab Muslim northerners of Sudan, (the base of the government), and the African Christians of the south. In the mid-90s Sudan was home to Osama bin Ladin, the international terrorist responsible for the World Trade Center attack. It is estimated that more than 1,2 million people have been killed in the Sudan war, brining devastation to the Sudanese economy.

    UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: At war with terrorism.

    PHILIPPINES: The Phillipines armed forces, with assistance of US troops, are fighting Moslem rebels - they have been linked to Osama bin Laden&#039;s el Qaeda terrorist group - on the southern islands of the country. Muslim rebel groups seek autonomy/independence from the mostly Christian Philippines. One rebel group, the Abu Sayaf Group, is believed linked to Osama bin-Laden&#039;s Al-Qaida. This connection, plus their tactic of kidnapping and beheading Americans, led the United States to send Special Forces to aid the Philippine Army.


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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Its sad and I wish we could pull our troops out now, but what would that do? Obviously let them win. With or without our troops there, we will be hit with something. Shit, they slammed into the WTC on 9/11 without out there being war. Imagine what is going to happen...

    These pieces of shit need to stop the bullshit of their religion. Its already OLD...

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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125435#msg125 435 date=1087775187
    IMHO these Islamic extremist bastards are making a huge mistake by expecting the same reaction they managed to get out of socialist Spain to withdraw troops from the "semi-right wing" government like South Korea.
    I agree, though it is not so much about the political flavor of the South Korean govt as the simple fact that the Koreans (North and South) are singularly tough and mean-assed customers in a fight. For example, the SK division sent to fight in Vietnam were the only troops the Viet Cong and regular North Vietnamese army units appeared to fear and go out of their way to avoid...not the US Army or our Marines or the Rangers or Seals or Green Berets etc, just a regular SK army division. Hard and bloody minded people, good at killing and willing to take serious casualties in order to carry out an assigned mission.

    (Btw, that is why the US is none to aggressive re the North Korean WMDs...which no one seriously doubts exist and are being built. Doing something about it would be extremely costly.)

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    Veteran Member Pumpkin Pie's Avatar
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pamela link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125483#msg125 483 date=1087788628
    It&#039;s time to pull our troops out. Really. Take care of the US.
    No, I&#039;d much rather kill terrorists over there then over here. September 11th shows that the Atlantic and Pacific are no longer barriers between the US and the rest of the world. We cannot crawl back into our shell and hope they won&#039;t come looking for us. Every terrorist killed in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and other foreign country is one less blowing up our citizens here in the US.
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    Veteran Member Pumpkin Pie's Avatar
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125435#msg125 435 date=1087775187
    What worries me the most is actually Iran - who was proven to have "disappeared" a nuclear weapons facility a few days before UN inspectors were due to make a sweep (a pretty good indication that Iran now has nuclear capability)...
    Luckily Israel has in the past bombed nuclear power plants in Iran and they&#039;ll do it again. Their intelligence service is very active in knocking out threats to their country. They know that it won&#039;t be the US that the Islamic nutcakes will use a nuke against first but Israel.

    ...and who is massing thousands and thousands of troops on the Iran/Iraq border. If the terrorists start really taking a beating, it&#039;s distinctly possible that Iran will turn these troops loose into Iraq where they will vastly outnumber coalition forces.
    I honestly hope they do invade Iraq. Our military forces are assuredly training a number of spy satellites on not only the Iran/Iraq border but the entire country of Iran. You can move little things around undetected by our spy satellites but not massive armies. If Iran is massing an army, our military is already waiting to give a responce. If Iran invades Iraq, we&#039;ll wipe them out and roll right through that country like we did Iraq. And the US won&#039;t even need to get the UN&#039;s approval since our soldiers will be responding to an attack in progress. Iran is the recognized leading terrorist-backing nation in the world and toppling that government will amputate one of the legs that international terrorists stand on.
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Carpet Bomb.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    I lay in bed every night with CNN on and watch it until I fall asleep. At least, I did up until last night. I saw this right as I was drifting off and seeing that man BEGGING and pleading for his life on camera made me so upset.
    I won&#039;t add anything into the political debate here, as, quite honestly, I am not educated enough in the political matters to do so, but all I can add here is that I am sick to my stomach over this shit.
    I cannot for the life of me imagine how that man is feeling knowing damn well he will be beheaded soon - the mental torment and torture must be overwhelming and the sheer anticipation of knowing and waiting for what will happen to him must be a million times worse than the death itself. I cannot imagine what the families of these innocent people are going through nor can I imagine how one human being could do such horrid things to another.
    I just don&#039;t get it and it saddens me. :sad:
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    Pamela
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    We have the best technology around. Hell we have been picking up their cell phone conversations. But seems too late getting there, they are then gone to another area and no talk.

    However, i understand we would much rather kill terriosts over there then in the US, but we have them here, and many. We train these people and don&#039;t even know it. I worry more aboyt home now. Didn&#039;t used too. Let them kill themselves off.

    Sad i know, but that Iran is one messed up country. It will never stop. It can&#039;t. Baby terrorists are born everyday.

    War always was and will always be. (oh well a small part of my belief anyway.)

    Pamela


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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    I&#039;m trying not to get wrapped up in those too much... it&#039;s too damn frustrating.

    Speaking of frustrations; what drives these men to such fanatical extremes? How can any human saw the head of another and feel no remorse?

    I think it&#039;s because their SC&#039;s suck.

    We have options of all nude, topless, lap dances, VIP rooms, etc.
    They oppress their women to such a degree, that slipping a dollar (or dinar) into a women&#039;s sock can get a man castrated. $100 VIP rooms to see a toe.. yippy!!!

    I think they all need to visit an American SC.


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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pamela link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125760#msg125 760 date=1087837551
    We have the best technology around. Hell we have been picking up their cell phone conversations. But seems too late getting there, they are then gone to another area and no talk.
    Terrorists can operate differently than nations. National intelligence agencies (such as the former KGB) couldn&#039;t be as mobile as terrorists. They had deep bureaucracies that worked against them. Because terrorists know we can tap their phones anywhere in the world, they operate with that limitation in mind. Same goes for organized crime. They adjust with the time or ... as was the case with the American-Italian mafia ... get taken down and replaced by more agile organizations.

    However, on the bright side, since the US has declared war on terrorism and took down Afghanistan, the terrorists know they cannot hide behind national borders anymore and, more importantly, national governments know they&#039;ll be taken down if they&#039;re ever shown to be backing terrorists that are behind a recent massive terrorist attack. Libya saw the writing on the wall and has done what it can to get off of the US&#039;s hit list. Iran has even gone much more covert in their support of terrorists. Not totally, but not as overt as they have been.

    However, i understand we would much rather kill terrorists over there then in the US, but we have them here, and many. We train these people and don&#039;t even know it. I worry more aboyt home now. Didn&#039;t used too. Let them kill themselves off.
    When their goal is to kill us, we have to deal with them. We do have terrorists here, but it&#039;s foolish to play defense in this type of a game. If you do, you give the terrorists the best situation possible. They then just have to worry about getting caught AFTER committing a terrorist attack instead of also worrying about getting hammered during preparation. And if they&#039;re going to do a suicide mission, the operatives don&#039;t even worry about the post-attack. Their organizations might, but not the operatives.

    Sad i know, but that Iran is one messed up country. It will never stop. It can&#039;t. Baby terrorists are born everyday.
    No one is born a terrorist. Societies create terrorists. Personally, I think the key to solving the current terrorist problem is average Muslims coming out and vocally opposing the extremists. That and their religious leaders preaching tolerance of other religions and no longer having as a goal control over nations, i.e., no theocracies. Until that happens, the Muslim societies will give birth to terrorists.

    War always was and will always be. (oh well a small part of my belief anyway.)
    We live in a time of unparalleled peace. Yes, peace. Never before in history has the world be so at peace. WWIII has never taken place. For over fifty years, no major nation has invaded another major nation. Nuclear weapons insured that. MAD (mutual assured destruction) prevented that. Iraq is small potatoes in comparison to what could be going on if scientists hadn&#039;t developed a truly fearsome weapon like the nuke. Read history and you&#039;ll see. However...

    Small conflicts still are happening around the world. But, fortunately, they&#039;re getting smaller. Today, after the first Iraq war, they are ... by and large ... internal affairs (i.e., civil wars). Even small nations know they cannot cross borders and conquer another small nation anymore. Also, fortunately, even civil wars end eventually. However...

    Terrorism is a different beast. We need to take out their operatives, but we also need to deal with the root cause that created them. Intolerance and dreams of political power are creating Islamic extremists. I think shaming Muslims and their religious leaders for these two goals might be the best route to go. And that&#039;s happening now. More and more Muslims are coming out and saying that these Islamic extremists do not represent them. It&#039;s a start and a tactic I hope nations around the world (and not just the US) continue use. Oh, and this is one war that the press could possibly win for us. The more the press publicly shames Muslims and Muslims leaders (thus getting them to take overt actions to prove they&#039;re not like the terrorists), the less Islamic extremists can claim their religion backs them. That and...

    I think Muslim ministers need to loudly condemn any Islamic extremist to Hell if they commit or even advocate and/or support terrorism. No 70 or so virgins for the suicide terrorist or money to their surviving families, but eternal fire and brimstone. Getting Muslim ministers to agree on this and publicly proclaim this is needed. That and vocally condemning any Muslim that commits, supports, or advocates terrorism in the name of their faith to Hell during each of their sermons. This might not be "the" solution, but it is definitely a good start.
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by A_Guy link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125777#msg125 777 date=1087840160
    Speaking of frustrations; what drives these men to such fanatical extremes?
    A lot of Muslim terrorists start out as protectors of fellow Muslims. They went into Afghanistan to repel the Russians. They went into former Czechoslovakia to counter the ethnic genocide of Muslims there. They fight for the property rights of Muslims whose land was taken away by Israel. Unfortunately...

    AFTER the Holy war is over, what do Holy warriors do with themselves? Some go home and return to their former lives. Proud of having fought for their fellow believers. They wear it as a badge of honor and regale their dinner guests with tales of their adventures. Unfortunately, some Holy warriors never want to return to such a dull normal life. They seek out another Holy war. None around? OK. They create their own. Presto! 9/11

    Societies have always had a problem what to do with soldiers that don&#039;t want to trade their swords for shovels. At one time, the solution was to create a war for them to go off and fight ... and hopefully get killed off in the process. The Crusades was one such attempt. Too many knights after Europe settled down were causing problems so the Pope got rid of them by sending them off to the Holy Land.

    And, in a very real way, we&#039;re doing that right now in Iraq. This is the battleground for these eternal Holy warriors. A magnet that pulls them in. We can only hope our soldiers kill them all off before these eternal Holy warriors turn their attention elsewhere again. After all, every terrorist killed in Iraq is one less setting foot on our soil with a bomb strapped to their chest.

    How can any human saw the head of another and feel no remorse?
    War numbs a person. Talk to any combat veteran about what it felt like killing the first enemy soldier and what it was like killing the hundredth. After a while, nothing really phases you and you&#039;re capable of doing anything as long as you feel the ends justifies the means.
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Pumpkin, I stand in awe of your analysis (and in complete agreement) !

    I also see a new chapter was opened today with the Iranian Navy seizing British patrol boats. How long to you figure before the Iranians become fully involved ?

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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Carpet bomb.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    I think that the Iranians have been involved longer then we thought. (Pre 9-11 with Al Q.) Intel showed that Al Q guys had been going back and forth between Afganistan and Iran for quite sometime.

    It seems that all that region knows is violence, so show them that. Leaflet a town, telling them to get out in 6 hours. Then roll the heavies in and start the rolling thunder.

    Ya know, I feel like crap saying this, because this is exactly how they want us to react, causing the world to rip apart, but I just don&#039;t see anyway around it. Short of letting our Cons run free over there, I don&#039;t know what we could do.
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125909#msg125 909 date=1087858274
    Carpet bomb.
    LMFAO.. B.. Are you trying to tell us something?



    (PS: I agree! heh)

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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Ironically, Iran is a very different case for many different reasons, not the least of which is the fact that fully half of their population is under the age of 30. And they&#039;re not happy.

    They see what life in the West is like via satellite television and pirate internet. They want Western technology, ideas and culture, and they&#039;re sick of being economically depressed and isolated from the West. It will take some time, but they&#039;ll depose their theocracy given enough time.

    I agree with B, we should carpet bomb Iran: with Janine Lindemuller, Slayer, Levis, and The Simpsons.

    There&#039;s more than one way to invade a nation. Culture is a good, cheap way to do it.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125881#msg125 881 date=1087855655
    I also see a new chapter was opened today with the Iranian Navy seizing British patrol boats. How long to you figure before the Iranians become fully involved ?
    How stupid do you think religious leaders are? The dumber they are, the sooner they&#039;ll do something stupid.

    Personally, I don&#039;t think Iranian leaders are so dumb that they&#039;d invade while coalition forces are still in Iraq. Would they invade after the coalition forces leave? That depends on how strong the Iraq military is at the time and, again, how dumb the Iranian leaders are. Iran invades and the US will not only push them back out but invade Iran.

    A more likely scenario is another terrorist attack against the US and its paper trail leading back to Iran. Iran only needing to harbor and/or fund the terrorists or give them land to train on and the US will release rolling thunder on Iranian land.
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by samart link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg125911#msg125 911 date=1087858451
    I think that the Iranians have been involved longer then we thought. (Pre 9-11 with Al Q.) Intel showed that Al Q guys had been going back and forth between Afganistan and Iran for quite sometime.
    No intelligence expert that I&#039;ve heard speak would disagree with your assessment. However, for the US to attack Iran, there has to be a link between a terrorist attack on US soil and Iran. Unforunately, bombing our embassies and killing US citizens abroad has never been enough to get the US to retailiate. Pearl Harbor. 9/11. Sadly those are what is needed.

    It seems that all that region knows is violence, so show them that. Leaflet a town, telling them to get out in 6 hours. Then roll the heavies in and start the rolling thunder.

    Ya know, I feel like crap saying this, because this is exactly how they want us to react, causing the world to rip apart, but I just don&#039;t see anyway around it. Short of letting our Cons run free over there, I don&#039;t know what we could do.
    As I said in an earlier reply, we need to get Muslim leaders and ministers to speak out against terrorism in the name of their faith and intolerance of other religions. Until that happens, nothing will change. It doesn&#039;t matter if we bomb Iran back to the Stone Age. We&#039;ve got to change the collective mindset of that religion.
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Unfortunately we cannot rely exclusively upon our "intelligence" assessments any longer as a means of determination for war: Case in point --Iraq. Whatever your feelings regarding the invasion, it is a virtually indisputable fact that Iraq and Al Qaeda were not engaged in terrorist collusion against the U.S. We were either fed a) outright misinformation, or b) shoddy intelligence.
    We cannot, thus, attack other sovereign nations quite so easily. Iraq seemed(to the administration, at least), to be a good gamble: Relatively impoverished, easier leadership to decapitate, weak armed forces,and an enemy we&#039;d already confronted. Yet, even this invasion has proven more costly than we imagined on many fronts -- particularly, we have only belatedly recognized the importance of the international community in assisting our efforts.
    The international community will now be less inclined to support our efforts elsewhere because we attacked Iraq utilizing either false pretenses or poor inteligence. Furthermore, we are too invested in the Iraqi operation for some time to divert our resources elsewhere --even if it IS a legitimate cause.The American public is quickly growing weary of wars. Look at what happened in Afghanistan -- We never finished the job, in order to attack Iraq. The result has been a exponential increase in opium production, vast areas of the nation remain law-less and safe-havens for Taliban remnants and Al Qaeda, and HAmid Karshai is having difficulty exerting much control over his nation beyond Kabul.
    Al Qaeda is and should remain our priority: Utilizing circuitous,tenuous arguments to justify invasions of sovereign nations has proven a costly distraction from the job at hand -namely,destroying terrorist networks. Sovereign nations are not reckless enough to openly engage in terrorist collusion against the U.S. --No leader wishes for his own death. Hence, the importance of annihilating the terrorist networks, themselves..conventional war is actually anathema to success in this front.
    I fully appreciate the argument in favor of democratization as a means of re-shaping the geo-politics of the Middle East more favorably, and/or of cultural change as a disincentive for terrorist acts. YEt, we are reckless and naive if we believe conventional war will accomplish this --This is an impossibility which we must confront. Terrorism is a societal malaise best treated utilizing socio-cultural weapons and attitudinal power.
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    Default Re:The freakin cowards are trying the same thing yet again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by juliet link=board=1;threadid=10303;start=msg126257#msg126 257 date=1087918951
    Unfortunately we cannot rely exclusively upon our "intelligence" assessments any longer as a means of determination for war:
    Except that&#039;s exactly what we relied on to determine that al Qaeda was in Afghanistan.

    Case in point --Iraq. Whatever your feelings regarding the invasion, it is a virtually indisputable fact that Iraq and Al Qaeda were not engaged in terrorist collusion against the U.S. We were either fed a) outright misinformation, or b) shoddy intelligence.
    No, we knew about the connection as far back as 1990. Here&#039;s an article on it: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...3/378fmxyz.asp

    We cannot, thus, attack other sovereign nations quite so easily.
    That depends on how much of the UN and its member nations the next target has been able to bribe. The oil-for-food UN scandal shows the two nations that opposed the war the most (France and Russia) were also the two nations that benefited the most from the scandal. Here&#039;s an article on that: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Int...ons/bg1748.cfm

    Iraq seemed(to the administration, at least), to be a good gamble: Relatively impoverished, easier leadership to decapitate, weak armed forces,and an enemy we&#039;d already confronted.
    Or could it have been that Iraq was not complying with the terms of the cease-fire? That they had done everything they could get away with to prevent UN inspectors from gaining unrestricted access to their military and laboratories. That all UN inspectors were complaining about this. That a number of UN resolutions were passed to try and drive this point home to Saddam and nothing worked.

    And let&#039;s remember that Saddam wasn&#039;t some poor innocent bystander that the US was picking on. Saddam invaded Kuwait. That the rest of the world wasn&#039;t trusting him is understandable ... as was the world getting upset with and concerned about him trying to block UN inspectors at every turn.

    He had receive numerous warnings of what non-compliance would mean. So what do we do? Not back up our words with force? Pass another resolution against him? Threaten to take him off our Christmas gift list?

    Let&#039;s be honest. Most anti-war advocates would NEVER be in favor of invading Iraq ... not even if it invaded another country ... which is actually what anti-war advocates protested against the US doing after we drove Iraq out of Kuwait. Just as they protested against the US entering WWI and WWII.

    Yet, even this invasion has proven more costly than we imagined on many fronts...
    Not in the slightest. Before the invasion, the press and anti-war advocates were predicting thousands, if not tens of thousands of US soldiers dead. From the moment we invaded Iraq until now, the US casualties hasn&#039;t passed 1,000. This is remarkable in the history of any military conflict of this scale. In the Gettysburg battle alone, the US lost 20,000 soldiers.

    -- particularly, we have only belatedly recognized the importance of the international community in assisting our efforts.
    We had over 30 nations supporting us invading Iraq. How is that not broad international support? Especially when you factor in the oil-for-food scandal.

    The international community will now be less inclined to support our efforts elsewhere because we attacked Iraq utilizing either false pretenses or poor inteligence.
    Which nearly every intelligence agency in the world also held to be true. And our intelligence wasn&#039;t made up by Bush but was based off the contention of the previous Clinton administration. Most intelligence agencies still hold that Iraq had WMDs and these are now in Syria.

    Furthermore, we are too invested in the Iraqi operation for some time to divert our resources elsewhere --even if it IS a legitimate cause.
    No, not at all. We went into Iraq with a third of what we fought with in the first Gulf War. Currently there is only 180,000 US soldiers in and around Iraq ... out of 3 million in the US military. The vast majority of our naval ships are patrolling elsewhere in the world. The military is only taking less than 4% of the GDP. We can easily fight another front(s) without trouble.

    The American public is quickly growing weary of wars.
    This is nothing new or different. The American public always wants quick solutions to difficult problems. Unfortunately, unlike with TV sitcoms, real world problems cannot be solved in a half hour.

    Look at what happened in Afghanistan -- We never finished the job, in order to attack Iraq.
    No one said we were finished in Afghanistan. It was held from the very beginning that it would take time to flush out and kill the terrorists there. And we can and did successfully took out Iraq while at the same time handling Afghanistan.

    The result has been a exponential increase in opium production, vast areas of the nation remain law-less and safe-havens for Taliban remnants and Al Qaeda, and HAmid Karshai is having difficulty exerting much control over his nation beyond Kabul.
    The Taliban had a major problem controlling Afghanistan too. Afghanistan and upper Pakistan have historically been lawless areas where local warlords never willingly bowed to governments.

    Al Qaeda is and should remain our priority:
    I agree but would include targeting nations that train, support, and/or harbor terrorists. Also, know that terrorist groups commonly change names so don&#039;t get too fixed on going after only "al Qaeda" terrorists.

    Utilizing circuitous,tenuous arguments to justify invasions of sovereign nations has proven a costly distraction from the job at hand -namely,destroying terrorist networks.
    And if the terrorist network is receiving support and safe harbor from a nation?

    Sovereign nations are not reckless enough to openly engage in terrorist collusion against the U.S. --No leader wishes for his own death.
    First, that a nation gives a terrorist organization safe harbor should be reason enough. With the Taliban, they not only gave al Qaeda safe harbor but gave them land and funding.

    Second, if such a nation does the above, do you really think the terrorist organization is going to honestly tell the nation what its current targets are going to be? Especially if it is a target that they think the nation would be reluctant to anger? Can a government that gives safe harbor, land, and/or money to a terrorist organization then be blameless for what that terrorist organization does? No, it&#039;s called being an accomplice to a crime.

    Hence, the importance of annihilating the terrorist networks, themselves..conventional war is actually anathema to success in this front.
    Unless it is a nation that is training, supporting, and giving them safe harbor.

    I fully appreciate the argument in favor of democratization as a means of re-shaping the geo-politics of the Middle East more favorably, and/or of cultural change as a disincentive for terrorist acts. YEt, we are reckless and naive if we believe conventional war will accomplish this --This is an impossibility which we must confront.
    That impossibility is taking place right now in Iraq. At the end of this month, power will be transfered to the new government. In January, they&#039;ll hold their first elections. As they rebuild their military, the US military will pull out.

    Terrorism is a societal malaise best treated utilizing socio-cultural weapons and attitudinal power.
    But it shouldn&#039;t be only treated in this way. If terrorists are identified, they need to be taken out. If a nation supports international terrorism, it needs to be taken down.
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