WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO FORM A UNION LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS COUNTRY . If we work why should'nt we be treated with respect like every one elselets get with it and make it happen!!!We should have pension and retirement fund

WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO FORM A UNION LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS COUNTRY . If we work why should'nt we be treated with respect like every one elselets get with it and make it happen!!!We should have pension and retirement fund





Well theoretically we could form an organization which charges annual dues and includes benefits like group insurance and retirement. I've talked about this before but got little response. I don't think most dancers want to be included in a large scale organization which is known to the public, for privacy reasons. Perhaps we could organize some group which only gets us the discounted benefits we want, but isn't political and doesn't draw attention, so those of us who want to, can remain anonymous??

bridgette their has to be someone out there who is smart enough and knows this business. That can get this sort of thing started their are so many of us out thier!!!





I actually met the woman last year who was the head of the dancer unionization movement. She got a lot of press with the movement for a long time, then her funding died and she fell on hard times. It just sort of died from there.
The ORIGINAL Stripper Sales School
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Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle. ~Abraham Lincoln

Love your name, (dancer wealth}we should take care of our own have a good nite were ever you workOriginally Posted by DancerWealth link=board=4;threadid=10491;start=msg128791#msg128 791 date=1088291322





Dancers absolutely have the right to unionize. However, the vast majority of dancers work as independent contractors i.e. they work for their own business. The club then engages the services of that business (the dancer) in the same legal manner as they would engage a carpet cleaning service. If the dancer wishes to unionize, she can certainly negotiate a contract with herself as the owner of the business in the same way that carpet cleaning workers can negotiate with the owner of the carpet cleaning business. In either case the club cannot be involved since legally speaking no workers are actually working for the club.
For unionization to achieve the potential benefits you envision, it would be necessary to negotiate with the club itself. To do this means that dancers must become employees of the club so that labor laws will apply.
However, becoming an employee of the club brings along with it a large number of changes ...
- dancer incomes (and estimated tips) being reported to the club by the IRS and taxes being withheld from weekly paychecks
- loss of business expense tax deductions such as travel and accomodation expenses, breast implants, basically everything except costumes and shoes (which still qualify as an employee business expense)
- rigid dancer schedules with weekly hours, starting times and quitting times being kept track of by the club since they affect hourly pay
- a highly probable limit of 24 hours per dancer per week to allow the club to treat dancers as part time employees and thus evade being forced to provide many employee benefits required by law for full time employees (those that work over 24 hrs per week)
- an hourly wage plus commission pay system (like straight business salespersons), where the commission is 50% or less of the amount that the customer has spent to purchase the product (i.e. private dances), with the balance being kept by the club in order to pay for the hourly wages and government mandated employee costs such as disability and unemployment insurance.
If every dancer in the club is willing to go along with becoming an employee of the club, and if the club is willing to treat its dancers as employees, then and only then does the possibility of unionizing become real.
Even if this were to come to pass, and all of the dancers in the club were to agree to become employees and unionize, there still remains the matter of 'leverage'. The club is not going to 'give away' retirement benefits, medical insurance, paid vacations etc. unless it is forced to. The 'leverage' that unions have is the ability to shut down the business until their demands are met, thus costing the business more money than the demands would cost.
However, this 'leverage' only works if the business will in fact be shut down. In today's economy, if a club with high earnings potential were to be the target of a dancer's strike, how long do you think that it would take for "replacement" dancers to be rounded up ? This is particularly true of a chain club, where replacement dancers from sister clubs would only be a few phone calls away. But even for an independent club, if word got around that the club was offering new dancers the chance to earn good money, how many girls do you think would actually pass up the chance to earn big money themselves by honoring your picket line ?



Some dancers don't want to unionize, I've witnessed it first hand. Sometimes they just can't get their act together, and don't want to go through the hassle and publicity that joining a union would generate, and others are just too money greedy.
I actually worked a club at one time where the owner (yes the club owner) was rounding up all his dancers and encouraging them to unionize. He was one of the few club owners out there I guess that wanted to see his house dancers succeed.
We sat through long meetings, discussing health benefits, work hours, and even had child care and housing arrangement options that would become available. We had financial planners come to help the dancers set up retirement and savings accounts. Everything was set to go, and we were coming into the final rounds of meetings where things would be finalized.
This what killed our unionization efforts.
All the dancers would be paid at the end of the week via paycheck. The total would be on commissioned based dance sales plus an hourly minimum wage. At the end of the week, the commission bonus would be based on how many lap dances were sold in the club total, not based on individual dancer earnings. In other words, all the lap dance money would be divided up equally at the end of the week. So everyone would be paid equally.
This club kept records of how many dances each girl sold every shift she worked. The dancers carefully went over these records...and it didn't take much for the girls to realize that the consistantly highest earning dancers would be shortchanged moneywise by the consistantly low earning dancers. Taking records from the previous years, all the dancers under this new union payscale could estimate to make 1. minimum wage for 40 hours plus 2. an average of about $500 a week in bonus lap dance sales under this plan.
Since the top earning dancers at that club during this time usually sold $500+ worth of dances EVERY DAY, they immediately got pissed off. They would be losing money!
The meetings soon generated into chaos, because the dancers couldn't agree how they should be paid. No one wanted to join a union if it was going to cost them money that was going to be redistributed to someone else. And that was the end of unionization efforts at that club.





Whether or not there is an effort to share collective earnings in the form of private dances or tip money, or whether individual dancers get paid commisions based on their own private dance sales and keep their own tips, the fact remains that becoming employees means additional expenses for the club. These stem from government mandated costs for disability and unemployment insurance, new bookkeeping costs to account for individual dancer payroll and taxes every week etc. Ultimately, since it is the dancers who generate the vast majority of income for the club, it is the dancers who must bear the burden of these new costs.No one wanted to join a union if it was going to cost them money that was going to be redistributed to someone else. And that was the end of unionization efforts at that club
In the final analysis, there are X amount of dollars being spent by club customers. That X amount of dollars must cover all of the operating expenses involved for the club, plus dancer paychecks and benefits. If dancers create extra operating costs by becoming employees, ultimately dancers must pay that cost as a deduction from potential earnings. If dancers also want health benefits, retirement benefits etc. ultimately they wind up paying for them out of their own earnings potential as well, otherwise the club would go bankrupt. There is no free lunch.
I also agree that employee status and unionization really only benefits 'marginal' dancers - who would benefit from the shared earnings of others, who would benefit from employee considerations like seniority in regard to job security and shift selection etc. Primo dancers with high earnings potential would appear to have a lot to lose and very little to gain by becoming employees and unionizing.
Your example is not unique in regard to past dancer unionizing efforts, where the principle used to sell the union is having the voting support of the majority of dancers, but the extra expenses and benefits actually being paid for by disproportionately reallocating the high earnings of the small minority of Primo dancers. This naturally results in the Primo dancers leaving to avoid having a huge chunk of their earnings confiscated for the benefit of other dancers, which in turn causes Primo club customers to also leave. Eventually, like the Lusty Lady, business gravitates to the lowest common denominator and the remaining employee dancers wind up taking additional pay cuts to avoid the club going bankrupt.

THIER ARE DANCERS WHO ARE BRILLIANT OUT THIER!!! WHY CANT WE START SMALL AND BUILD UPON IT?LIKE STARTING OUR OWN DANCERS FUND . OR OUR OWN HEALTH FUND WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CLUB OWNERS OR A MONEY FUND WERE EACH DANCER CONTRIBUTESOriginally Posted by Melonie link=board=4;threadid=10491;start=msg128822#msg128 822 date=1088296343





My husband is in the Marines so we are fortunate to have full coverage health benefits.I do think that unionizing eventually will become a reality.
One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.
一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.
中国大CHINESE BIG BOOBS!!!中国大
Although I think it would be totally awesome if we had our own healthcare and retirement funds ect, I couldn't be in a dancers union. I mean well I could but I would have to give the union I'm already in the boot; and I don't wanna piss off my union(I'm a teamster) I have right now. If there was some way we could "get swallowed" by another union, like the Teamsters or any of tons of other ones them we might have a chance. Like just recently in my area, nurses at one the hospitals in this area all became Teamsters. Why couldn't we fall under a catergory like that?
Kitana
As usual, Melonie makes excellent points.
Uh, I guess I fall in the latter category. I'm OK with that. I work hard for my money, have my own retirement account, and I'm fine with the way things are. If a club started treating me badly, I just wouldn't work there.Some dancers don't want to unionize, I've witnessed it first hand. Sometimes they just can't get their act together, and don't want to go through the hassle and publicity that joining a union would generate, and others are just too money greedy.
Well, you sound passionate enough about it- why don't you lead by example? Start it up in your neck of the woods and let us know how it goes.THIER ARE DANCERS WHO ARE BRILLIANT OUT THIER!!! WHY CANT WE START SMALL AND BUILD UPON IT?LIKE STARTING OUR OWN DANCERS FUND . OR OUR OWN HEALTH FUND WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CLUB OWNERS OR A MONEY FUND WERE EACH DANCER CONTRIBUTES
Uh, yeah. Sales of any kind is intrinsically capitalist- this situation would quickly lead to no one working hard or making any extra effort (why bother?). I'd be pissed if I were those girls too.The meetings soon generated into chaos, because the dancers couldn't agree how they should be paid. No one wanted to join a union if it was going to cost them money that was going to be redistributed to someone else. And that was the end of unionization efforts at that club.
Feature costumes for sale!





Actually, every dancer is free to do this right now as an individual. Like many others, I fund my own private health insurance coverage and my own investment portfolio. All it takes is a little bit of financial discipline.WHY CANT WE START SMALL AND BUILD UPON IT?LIKE STARTING OUR OWN DANCERS FUND . OR OUR OWN HEALTH FUND WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CLUB OWNERS OR A MONEY FUND WERE EACH DANCER CONTRIBUTES
It is probably true that an organized group of dancers in the same city might be able to approach a health insurance company for a group discount. However this is more difficult than it looks, since such group discounts are based on a certain number of people maintaining coverage month after month. Where dancers are concerned there is usually a huge amount of "turnover" with different girls coming and going, as well as the potential for a significant amount of late payments ... "I didn't earn enough money this week to be able to afford my health insurance premium". Without an "employer" to act as a buffer, the health insurance company will realize these sort of administrative problems are likely and will be reluctant to offer a significant discount.
There are plenty of dancers who would love to have fair working conditions. I am sure that some people have had bad experiences with union organizers who did not do a very good job. There are 3 major unions that I know of
AFL-CIO
http://www.aflcio.org/aboutunions/howto/
SEIU
http://www.seiu.org/lookup/
UAW
UAW http://www.uaw.org/organize/index.cfm
These unions have a lot of connections and clout; and they are confidential. I think that any dancer who really wants to organize should check out these sites along with a site called Liberal Oasis.
http://www.liberaloasis.com/
That is where I found the links for the main labor unions. Liberal Oasis also has links to PR firms that may be able to help.
I am so glad that guys like Greg Palast, Michael Moore and David Brock are putting out the information that regular people need so that we can defend ourselves. I am doing a lot of reading and research to figure out what can be done. We can defend ourselves if we know how to.
Dancer Wealth - Are you talking about the lady who danced at Cheetahs? I have a link to an article about what happened to her. We all know what kind of guys run these businesses. It is very important to have a well planned attack. The Lusty Lady in SF was not run by the same type of people who run the majority of the clubs.
Here is a link to the article.
http://www.lasvegasmercury.com/2003/.../20617480.html
Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. - M Rivero
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Let me make this clear. I DON'T want to unionize. What I'm talking about is just a large organization of contractors which gets us group insurance and such as part of membership. This is vastly different from a union. I want absolutely NO PART of a union, and from what I've seen, neither do most dancers.




Being a dancer is like owning your own business,We make alot of money therefore we can buy our own health insurance, which you can get for around 150 a month and invest your earnings therefore you will have money for retirement when the time comes.If we are union members we would not make the same money we are making now.Were I live there arent really any unions.Unions are good for certain professions I just dont think for ours.





I suppose I have to ask from the pro-union crowd here, what it is that you think that you'll gain from a dancers union that you cannot already get on your own? Or why you think that every dancer would want to be a part of it?
Nawty provides an excellent example on why unionization will not work in your profession ladies. The benefits you want to attain often will come at the expense of dancers who know that they can do much better as IC's, and will not want to participate. I can assure you that for those top earners, under unionization those $500+ nights will be but a memory.Originally Posted by NawtyGirl link=board=4;threadid=10491;start=msg128834#msg128 834 date=1088298509
Why would a motivated dancer want to work harder to only see the fruits of her extra efforts end up in the pockets of her less motivated counterparts? Furthermore, why would a customer want to go to a club where dancers had no incentive to sell them anything? Unlike McDonalds, the distribution of work in a strip club is NOT equal, therefore the distribution of money shouldn't be either. This is a fundamental principle of your line of work that you pro-union people are not considering.
A dancer that earns big bucks or a customer who spends big bucks has more power than a collective bargaining agreement anyday.
Former SCJ now in rehab.
I know Micheal Moore makes neo-Marxism look cool (from his $2 million Manhattan apartment, no less, where he rails against capitalism), but has no one else figured out that Marx' mantra of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," was an economic fallacy? Why in God's name would you possibly want to limit your earnings to the lowest common denominator?WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO FORM A UNION LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS COUNTRY
Why aren't you capable of dictating the terms of your employment on your own with regard to conditions, hours, et al?
The very nature of a dancer's job does not lend itself to legalized extortion, err, unionizing.
Two cents, from an unapologetic capitalist dog.
Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.
William F. Buckley, Jr.





Well, there are dancers who would definitely benefit from being union employees. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but there are some dancers working in some clubs who are, shall we say, less than stunning, less than slim, less than motivated etc. In an independent contractor environment these 'marginal' dancers would not be paid an hourly wage and would be 'marginal' earners in regard to stage tips and private dance sales. In the same independent contractor environment a dancer who is stunning, slim, and motivated would probably out-earn a marginal dancer by a 4:1 ratio! However, in a union employee environment, both the 'marginal' dancer and the Primo dancer would be paid the same hourly wage. In a union employee environment, a significant percentage of each dancers private dance sales would be 'confiscated' by the club to cover hourly salaries and bookkeeping costs - which affects the Primo dancer 4 times as seriously as the 'marginal' dancer. If there are enough 'marginal' dancers to carry a majority in a union vote, they have the power to effectively vote themselves a portion of the Primo dancer's earnings, and indeed may then earn more in the union employee environment as a result.Why in God's name would you possibly want to limit your earnings to the lowest common denominator?
Why aren't you capable of dictating the terms of your employment on your own with regard to conditions, hours, et al?
The very nature of a dancer's job does not lend itself to legalized extortion, err, unionizing.





After the vote of course, the Primo dancer whips out her cell phone and begins calling each of her regulars, informing them (at a volume loud enough where all the 'marginal' dancers can hear her) that she'll be changing clubs very soon.Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=4;threadid=10491;start=msg129477#msg129 477 date=1088428032
Former SCJ now in rehab.





Yes, exactly, providing there is another club in town to change to ! If there is, then the Primo dancers and big spending customers wind up migrating to another club - which then leaves the unionized 'marginal' dancers even worse off than they were before in regard to income (because somebody must still pay the extra bookkeeping and payroll expenses).After the vote of course, the Primo dancer whips out her cell phone and begins calling each of her regulars, informing them (at a volume loud enough where all the 'marginal' dancers can hear her) that she'll be changing clubs very soon.
There's also an extra 'incentive' which rises to the surface for the 'marginal' dancers. Since they'll have 50% of their private dance earnings 'confiscated' and shared with other 'marginal' dancers, and since they may have to also pool and share stage tip money, the only real incentive remaining is to offer customers something which the club and other dancers don't know about so that the dancer can keep 100% of the proceeds. And what might that be ? - 'extras' !
This is something I've been mulling over for a long, long time now. Spoke with someone about it this weekend.Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=4;threadid=10491;start=msg129126#msg129 126 date=1088354929
Would need 20+ dancers for a health insurance company to take an interest. Not sure if I'd have to stay in the state of Iowa or include dancers from all over the country.
Essentially, I'd act in an administrative capacity.... Not something I'd like a whole lot, but lemme tell ya, I'DO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING FOR GROUP HEALTH INSURANCE.
BTW - This has been done before. Not with dancers, but with other independant contractor type jobs, such as web designers. All you need is a COMMON THREAD to bind you together.
It would be a bitch and a half collecting premiums. I'd only entertain the notion of doing this with VERY SERIOUS MINDED dancers.
Ok - I'm gonna get on this. I'll call my Mom to find out where to start. She'll know - she's got over 30 years insurance experience (just not in Health - bummer).
Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion. You must set yourself on fire. - Mileah Davis
Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda, Star Wars





It's more than a bitch and a half ... because the existance of the discount premium program depends on one contact person interacting with the insurance company, and also depends on that one person sending in the entire amount of monthly insurance payments on time every month. If a couple of girls decide to quit or decide they can't afford to send in their payment this month, then the continued existance of the program may rely on that single contact person making up the difference out of her own pocket versus having the discount program cancelled for everybody. This is a lot riskier than the typical 'employer' scenario, where the employer can deduct the insurance payment from the employee's paycheck before the employee can spend it.It would be a bitch and a half collecting premiums. I'd only entertain the notion of doing this with VERY SERIOUS MINDED dancers.
Not all dancers have to join a union at a club which offers a "Maintenance of Membership" format.
If a club is "Open" format or "Agency" format; then either everyone has to join, or it is so easy to bust that it won't last for more than a week.
To say that all union contracts would require the same format that NawtyGirl dealt with is not looking at the situation with an open mind. The whole point of contacting a union organizer is for the employees to have some bargaining power.
If employers had to pay dancers a flat rate of $50.00 instead of charging them a flat rate of $50.00; I highly doubt if any f'uglies would be found in the clubs. I think that this would make the average customer very happy. The one thing that would not make the customers happy would be the fact that there would be no extreme desperation, therefore very little chance of finding an extras girl. The cops and politicians would hate it because they wouldn't have any reason to extort the club owners for large bribes.
I am pro business and pro union. I believe that businesses can benefit by treating their employees with respect.
As for the Michael Moore smear that was made - there are a lot of rich people who have good morals and a lot of rich people who have very bad morals. Michael Moore has become a rich man because of his good morals.
Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. - M Rivero
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I thought Las Vegas had a dancer's union? I thought I heard that somewhere... is that right?
In regards to health insurance issues, I formally worked in the industry.. consortiums ( a group of people who pool together in one area) is what would be needed, just like Brooke (?) said. If there are a large group of you in a specific area, it may be worth checking into.
I have a few people whom I know who work for Blue Cross, who have contacts all over the country.. I could ask her if you'd like..
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