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Thread: for ohio dancers- article in the free times (free cleveland magazine)

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    Veteran Member A.n.a.l.a.'s Avatar
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    Default for ohio dancers- article in the free times (free cleveland magazine)

    http://www.freetimes.com/modules.php...ticle&sid=1716 it's totally lame (the attitude of the lawmakers, not the article)

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    Default Re:for ohio dancers- article in the free times (free cleveland magazine)

    Lame as the attitude may be, it's a very real issue. But states DO have the right to establish any sort of rules that they choose in regard to the conditions under which businesses may serve alcohol to customers. And since the Erie vs. PAPS case, states and cities DO have the right to establish rules regulating "public nudity" in strip clubs.

    The article is absolutely correct that restrictive ordinances incorporating provisions such as the six foot rule or no direct transfer of money between dancers and customers will indeed bankrupt a lot of clubs. About the only clubs which can survive in this environment are first tier show clubs which offer only the best of the best looking dancers as eye candy. Unfortunately, this doesn't help the 80% of dancers who don't "measure up" to first tier show club hiring standards.

    In reality, passing ordinances such as these does NOT have the intended effect. When a city makes it a misdemeanor for a dancer to touch a customer "innocently", and where state law makes it the same misdemeanor offense to give a customer a HJ or BJ or FS, some dancers will quickly realize that they have nothing additional to lose legally speaking and a great deal to gain financially speaking by vastly increasing their "sleaze factor". Thus in many cities which have passed anti-dance club ordinances, you wind up with one or two no contact "show clubs" which follow the ordinance ( but which will hire only the best looking 20% of dancers), and you wind up with many other clubs where illegal contact levels including HJ's BJ's & FS are readily available (and necessary in order to earn decent money) but where dancers must constantly work in fear of being busted.

    The "Bible Thumpers" have indeed done a good job of organizing their efforts to get anti-dance club laws enacted. As that website and other websites show, they have collected case evidence from virtually every anti-dance club law passed, they have collected the results of appeals against those dance club ordinances, and they have compiled examples of anti-dance club ordinance wording which has survived appeal attempts. This allows cities with an axe to grind against strip clubs, or with local politicians garnering bible thumper political support, to write new ordinances based on these examples which WILL survive clubowner financed appeal attempts.

    If the truth be known, after the Erie vs PAPS supreme court case most of the national advocate groups i.e. the ACLU washed their hands of the idea of pouring financial resources towards strip club legislation. The reason for this is obvious to those that understand how plaintiff trial lawyers work - no money to be earned from lucrative lawsuits and lots of political controversy given that neither republicans or democrats will go on the record in support of strip clubs. Thus the ACLU and other advocate groups have shifted their focus and financial resources towards other causes such as gay rights - where the potential plaintiff lawsuits against corporations promise big payouts (with the trial lawyers keeping 1/3 of those payouts) and where one political party at least will be fully supportive.

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    Default Re:for ohio dancers- article in the free times (free cleveland magazine)

    my major beef with these "morality" police is how they assume that getting rid of the clubs and everything else in adult entertainment is supposed to prevent illegal prostitution, drug trading, etc. if anything it'll make it worse. and even if we lived in a world with no exotic dancers (fat chance!) and there are hos in every line of work- teaching, law firms, office buildings, etc. sleeping around is how a lot of undeserving females get promotions while qualified people get looked over. i used to think dancers were stupid sluts myself but that's cause i didn't know any... i've since grown out of that attitude obviously. so waht can be done about it? because there doesn't need to be anymore largely unemployed groups of people in the usa.

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    Default Re:for ohio dancers- article in the free times (free cleveland magazine)

    Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the
    fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their
    job security
    Bene Gesserit Coda
    "He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!"

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    Default Re:for ohio dancers- article in the free times (free cleveland magazine)

    ::Sigh:: Time to write a letter to my senator.

    The scary part is, I was at an ACLU rally earlier this week. I talked to the speaker afterward, who is the ACLU rep. for Ohio. As soon as I mentioned Rule 52 and he realized which one I was talking about, he actually backed away from me. Scary stuff.

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    Default Re:for ohio dancers- article in the free times (free cleveland magazine)

    Citizens for Community Values

    Man. Groups like that really get to me. If you don't like something, fine. But don't tell me what is "good" and what me "values" should be.



    Because there ain't no tits on the radio

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    Default Re:for ohio dancers- article in the free times (free cleveland magazine)

    The scary part is, I was at an ACLU rally earlier this week. I talked to the speaker afterward, who is the ACLU rep. for Ohio. As soon as I mentioned Rule 52 and he realized which one I was talking about, he actually backed away from me. Scary stuff.
    Yeah, as I said, after the Erie vs PAPS decision the ACLU and other legal aid/rights groups realized they would be facing a lose-lose situation on the issue of strip clubs from that point forward. Also, Democratic politicians and supporters would be politically harmed should the ACLU press forward regardless, because of the close association between the ACLU and the democratic party.

    my major beef with these "morality" police is how they assume that getting rid of the clubs and everything else in adult entertainment is supposed to prevent illegal prostitution, drug trading, etc. if anything it'll make it worse. and even if we lived in a world with no exotic dancers (fat chance!) and there are hos in every line of work- teaching, law firms, office buildings, etc. sleeping around is how a lot of undeserving females get promotions while qualified people get looked over. i used to think dancers were stupid sluts myself but that's cause i didn't know any... i've since grown out of that attitude obviously. so waht can be done about it?
    Actually, some of the people promoting anti-dance club laws are probably good customers of prostitutes ! This issue really isn't seriously about morality or about reducing prostitution or any other obvious reason. What this issue IS about is appearances and politics.

    If an escort/prostitute is working a hotel, or a secretary is screwing her boss for a promotion, the vast majority of the general public (i.e. registered voters) are not even going to be aware of it. If for some stupid reason a bust should occur that publicizes the fact, the escort/prostitute or the secretary were clearly working on the wrong side of the law. On the other hand strip clubs must be government sanctioned in order to stay in business. If a strip club is allowed to provide customers with anything resembling "sex", to the general public this implies that their local government and cops are not doing their jobs. Politicians can then hitch their wagon to the issue of anti-dance club ordinances, knowing that it is a win-win situation for them in regard to free publicity, positive support from conservative groups, moms & pops etc. and essentially no backlash potential because NOBODY except clubowners and dancers is willing to go on record in support of the strip club industry.

    As long as the dancers in high contact clubs are working illegally from an official standpoint in order to earn any money due to an anti-dance club ordinance, and as long as occasional busts occur to provide politicians free publicity and offer "proof" to local citizens that the local government and cops are doing their jobs, everybody is happy - everybody except the dancers who are being busted of course ! Thus the real purpose of this exercise is simply to "criminalize" exotic dancing, not to stop it.

    This brings us right back to the principle I originally posted about, that enacting anti-dance club ordinances actually makes most clubs even sleazier, because if a girl is facing the same legal charge and the same fine for dancing too close to a customer versus giving HJ's BJ's etc. but can earn tons more money giving HJ's and BJ's guess what's very likely to happen ?

    In fact it can get even more ironic, where the girls who have been giving HJ's and BJ's have earned enough money to hire a top notch attorney are able to get the charges against them plea bargained/reduced/dismissed, while the clean dancers struggling to earn money without giving HJ's and BJ's will likely be unable to afford a top notch attorney due to their meager earnings potential competing with 'extras' in their club. "Clean" dancers will more than likely wind up with a conviction and a black mark on their permanent record, where the "dirty" girls are often able to escape the same thing happening to them.

    Welcome to the real world of American politics and American justice !




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