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Thread: Creation or Evolution

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    Veteran Member urnemesis's Avatar
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    Default Creation or Evolution

    In wich do you belive and why?
    The only Bush i like is between your legs.


  2. #2
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    The world is flat. The sun revolves around the earth. Fire is an element. It is impossible and unnatural for people to fly.

    Sure, it's preposterous. But millions or billions of people lived productive lives and died believing it. Eventually, the truth came out.

    So it is with science and anti-science views. People need to believe in a certain something. Let them. The facts will surface, and a lot of beliefs now will look like superstitious grasping in the future.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    I think most people who know me even just on this site know, that I hold the Creation View. But, do you really want to have a Bible/Religion Debate on a on a Stripper site?

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    God/dess Silverback's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    The universe is our picture. Only the immature imagine the cosmos to be what they think it is.
    --Sigan Visee, First Head Instructor, Guild Navigator School
    "He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!"

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Evolution..

    b/c religion is pure bullshit (thats my opinion...lets not get into a religious battle...i believe in a god...but NOT ANY PART OF ANY RELIGION)

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Everybody has a religious belief to some degree. Even the most ardent Athiest practices Religion. Secular Humanism is also a Religion. So you cannot get around religion and you cannot say you have no Religion. By saying that, to you that becomes your Religion.

    As for me, I am a Christian and I know almost all theology and almost the entire Bible as I went to Christian Schools all my life however, I dislike being termed "Religious" as it can have a negative meaning and it a term that can also be applied to Satanist, which is another topic.

    Again back to the subject, I cannot accept a theory that says in essence that my ancestors from a billion or so years ago was a blob of goo that somehow became a Fish that became a Land Creature then walked upright. Then after a long time formed a great Civilization, developed Language, Culture and Government on its own and somehow knew how to use analytical and reasoning thought. Developed Math and Science and the Arts. And on top of it all did so without any direction.

    To me, evolution is what does not answer anything about humanity.

    I just cannot except that this Life is all there is.


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    God/dess Silverback's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    What was is what was.

    It doesn't matter what you can accept.
    "He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!"

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    Veteran Member ATLDiscoLawyer420's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Evolution... not even close.
    They say there's a Heaven for those who await.
    Some say it's better but I say it ain't.
    I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints...
    the sinners have much more fun.

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    Veteran Member ATLDiscoLawyer420's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Everybody has a religious belief to some degree. Even the most ardent Athiest practices Religion. Secular Humanism is also a Religion. So you cannot get around religion and you cannot say you have no Religion. By saying that, to you that becomes your Religion.
    only if you define it as so. How is atheism a religion? Please include your definition of religion with said response...
    They say there's a Heaven for those who await.
    Some say it's better but I say it ain't.
    I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints...
    the sinners have much more fun.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    This is part of an interview with Dawid Wolfe, a prominent raw-foodist about evolution. I believe he reccomends the book in the interview called "Darwin on Trial" which is a must read.


    Q: Don't you believe in the Theory of Evolution?

    A: No. The most obvious refutation of the Theory of Evolution is paleontology itself. Simple probability indicates that fossil records can only be test samples. Each sample, then, should represent a different stage of evolution/adaptation, and there ought to be "transition" types, not particularly of one species or another. Instead, what we find, in the actual fossil record, are genus forms that have not developed themselves on the fitness principle, but appear suddenly and at once in their definite shape; that do not thereafter evolve towards better adaptation, but become rarer or finally disappear, while quite different forms arise again.

    The species that we know today are all stable, and no case has ever been observed of a species "adapting" itself to change its anatomy or physiology, which "adaptation" then resulted in more fitness" for the "struggle for existence," and was passed on by heredity, with the result of a new species.

    Darwinians cannot get over these facts by bringing in great spaces of time (concepts like "millions of years"), for no one has ever discovered any transition types for any organism--only distinct species exist. Nor are the extinct fossil plants and animals any simpler than present forms, although we are told the course of evolution was from simple to complex life-forms. This is crude anthropomorphism--humans are complex, other animals are simple, and they must be tending towards more human-like form and "intelligence," since humans are "higher" biologically.

    If the Theory of Evolution were correct, species ought to be fluid at the present time. They should be "adapting" and turning into one another. There should actually be no species, but only a surging mass of individuals, engaged in a race towards complexity," "humanity," and "intelligence." This, of course, is not the case. The "struggle" is quite inconclusive. The lower forms, simpler--less fit?--have not died out, have not yielded to the principle of Darwinian evolution. They remain in the same form they have had for eons. Why do they never "evolve" into something "higher?"

    The utilitarian aspect of the Theory of Evolution is also quite subjective. A species without hands has no need of hands. A hand that slowly evolved would be a positive disadvantage over the "millions of years" necessary to perfect the hand. Furthermore, how did this process start? For an organ to be utile, it must be ready; while it is being prepared it is not utile. But if it is not utile, it is not Darwinian, for Darwinism says evolution is utilitarian.

    A species appears suddenly, both in fossil-finds, and in the experimental laboratory. Sudden or quantum mutation is a legitimate description of the process, if the idea is free from any mechanical-utility causes, for these latter are only imagined, whereas quantum mutations are a fact.

    Origins are forever hidden from us. How we got here or and how Life began is an impenetrable mystery. To concoct outlandish theories saying "this is how we got here" and "this is how we lived in the past" based on 1,000 pieces of a puzzle containing 6 million pieces seems to me to be very naive.

    Q: Do you have any peer-reviewed literature on this subject we can sink our teeth into?

    A: Initially, I would recommend the book Darwin On Trial by Berkeley law professor Phillip Johnson. Professor Richard Thompson's work, also is very informative. Hugo de Vries' Mutation Theory is another good one.

    Q: Are you against science?

    The whole field of Darwinism/Evolution is a product of scientific materialism. Scientific materialism has a false assumption at its basis. This assumption is that Life is formed by the outer environment. This generated the sociology of "environment" as determining the character of living beings. And yet, in a purely factual sense, what is Life? Life is the actualization of potential. Potential is actualized in the midst of the outer environment. The environment does not determine the inner potential--it can only help or hinder its expression. Also, the inner potential can actually determine and alter the outer environment!

    We are interested in a way to manifest our full potential. And this can be done by obeying the Laws of Nature!! This automatically begins to shape the outer environment to fit the expression of the inner potential.

    In my seminars I teach the basic tenet of all success information: In order for your life to change...YOU have to change!

    The principle I am describing here is very simple. Life change comes from the inside out. Once you change on the inside, everything changes on the outside.

    The Laws of Nature are there and they stay there. Human progress through knowledge has been solely and exclusively a chiselling away at the distinctions which define the Laws of Nature. The greatest insights in history have been by those who revealed a new distinction about Nature (which was actually there all along)!

    Q: Have any of these works or findings you cite appeared in peer-reviewed scientific publications?

    A: Great question. Of course there is a massive body of evidence to support what I am saying and it appears in peer-reviewed literature. The premier scientific journals Nature and Science and the somewhat more popular Scientific American and England's New Scientist carry articles about the precariousness of dating fossils, the fact that the fossil record runs contrary to the theory of evolution, the lack of transitional forms, and other articles on related topics I have touched upon. The story of the controversy at the British Natural History Museum on this subject found in editorial and correspondence sections of Nature from 1980 to 1982 is very instructive as to the confusion present in scientific evolutionary circles when confronted with the evidence.

    The best analysis of scientific data gathered on the fallacy of the theory of evolution is found in Michael Denton's fantastic book entitled Evolution: A Theory In Crisis.

    Another great scientific book completely refuting evolution is Dr. Duane Gish's Evolution: The Fossils Still Say No!, which blows apart Gould's "punctuated equilibrium" theory and other attempts to save Darwinism from the fossil facts.

    Both of these books and Johnson's Darwin On Trial can be ordered directly from the Institute for Creationist Research (which is far more objective than any Evolutionist Research Facility I've encountered) in my hometown of San Diego. Call them at 619-448-0900. I highly recommend these books to anyone who believes the theory of evolution is a fact.

    I would like to add here I don't believe the Earth was created 10,000 years ago. The past history of the Earth is profoundly and deeply mysterious and not one in ten thousand of its secrets has been revealed.

    This information about the fallacy of evolution is liberating, for it opens up a whole spectrum of speculation and potential!


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    Banned Madcap's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    I'll answer this, but tomorrow when i'm more awake.

    In short, Evolution is 100% correct, after having read the info. Creationism as it stands, uh, doesn't stand up.

    But Evolution and Creationism are NOT mutually exclusive.


    Ryan: No-one is a Darwinist anymore. Darwin only came up with Evolution by natural selection, he didn't come up with Evolution, Darwin's grandfather was a proponent of the theory.

    Everyone: Thinking godditit 6000 years ago is retarded, IMO. There is just too much info refuting that. 14-20 BILLION years ago the universe was either born or created (Or born again, depending on dark matter's presence)

    The sun is 4.5 BILLION years old. The oldest rock has been dated to 3.8 BILLION years, it was found in antarctica (And, no, this was not radiocarbon dating, no-one carbon dates ROCKS since they have no CARBON).

    Argon-6 dating dates the earth to 4.5 or .6 Billion years old.

    All this dating stuff has to do with radioactivity and half-lives. I'll post more on the subject tomorrow.

    P.S. Carbon dating only works within around 50,000 years.

    Evolution is verifiable.

    Evolution is a variation in a given population's genetics responding to outside stimuli and that's IT. I can verify it for you NOW. Look at the way Dandelions grow on a mowed lawn (Short stems) compared to the way they grow in a never-mowed field (Long stems).

    Done, thanks for coming out!

  12. #12
    God/dess Gynger's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    I was raised highly religious, so I believe in Creation.. however, I no longer believe in organized religion. I respect everyone's theories, and beliefs and will not argue with anyone when it comes to religion or politics... because, quite honestly, these two things ruin everything that is good eventually.

    I really don't think a debate in relationship to religion is one to get in the middle of.


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    Banned Madcap's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Fuck it...

    A common tactic among evolution deniers is to assault one with a barrage of varied questions, hopping from topic to topic, gloating and scoffing when they eventually find one you admit you have no knowledge of. To counter this tactic one needs good working knowledge of physics, micro-biology, planetary science, zoology, paleontology, genetics, archaeology, theology, chemistry, philosophy, geology, and advanced mathematics. A daunting task, and I've likely left a couple out.

    I suggest a different tactic. Suppose we turn the tables and force them to answer our questions. After all, creationism is a science, isn't it? I ask them to explain fossil stratification, I ask them to explain why moles have subqutanious eyes, I ask them to explain why stars that are WAY older than 10,000 years have had time to shine their light on our planet. I ask them how creationism integrates with the rest of science like evolution does, I ask them why a "designed" creature as cute as a rabbit would need to eat it's own droppings for proper nutrition.

    I don't accept the "God knows, even if we don't" answer. Theirs is supposed to be a science, and science demands answers.

    1) Why do whales have hipbones?
    2) Why do ostriches and chickens have half wings?
    3) Why do moles have totally useless subcutaneous eyes?
    4) Why do rabbits have to eat their morning droppings?
    For what purpose was the human appendix created?
    5) What purpose does tooth decay serve?
    6) Plants use only roughly 10% of the energy they receive from the sun, herbivores use only about 10% of the energy of the plants they use, and carnivores use only about 10% of the energy they consume. Why would an intelligent designer be so energy inefficient?
    7) In light of the fact that life uses so little of its available energy, why then would an intelligent designer become conservative in its mechanisms of creating life (D.N.A.)?
    8 ) Why is there no biblical records of man interacting with dinosaurs? ( In the Bible, men never interacted with Behemoth or Leviathan, only God did. Plus Behemoth and Leviathan were not dinosaurs, but that is a different argument altogether.)
    9) If all life spread from Mount Ararat after a Great Deluge, how did the animals know how to get back home, and how did they cross the oceans to get there?
    10) Where did all the flood waters come from, and where did the waters go after the flood?
    11) Who did Noah's grandchildren mate with, their cousins?
    12) How did Noah carry enough food to feed all the animals on the ark, considering that the foods in many cases are extremely varied?
    13) Why didn't the carnivores eat the herbivores on the ark, making them extinct?
    14) How did Noah build the aquariums to hold the freshwater fish?
    15) What about the tiny cages he kept the Viruses in?
    16) How did Noah keep the salt water fish at the proper salinity and temperature?
    17) The Syphalis virus exists, So someone on the ark had Syph! Virtuous people indeed! What about AIDS, or Ebola. Viruses need carriers, who carried them?
    1 In Genesis 7: 23, it states that "Every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground." What did the herbivores eat after the flood, and where the hell did that olive branch the dove brought back to him come from? Not to mention that the Ark landed on a mountain and that Girraffes, Crocodiles and Elephants are not knows for their natural mounteneering skills.
    19) If we are all offspring of Noah's children, with all the inbreeding that implies, why do we have such diverse ranges of skin, eye, and hair color?
    20) Why in light of theological research showing that the flood in Genesis is based on a much older, non-biblical, Babylonian flood myth, do you accept the flood hypothesis at all?
    21) If creationism is really a science, as is claimed, why does it not offer scientific explanations to support itself instead of continually attacking evolution? Would not providing workable theories be better proof?

    Evolution deniers, despite their very best attempts, have yet to disprove evolution. Having absolutely no legitimate arguments, they have resorted to misquotes, half-truths, and outright lies in their attempts to discredit evolution. Even with such under-handed tactics, they have failed miserably.

    On the other hand, every single piece of "evidence" they present to support the creationist theory has been dismantled. In fact, observation of their tactics reveal that they present extremely scant evidence to support their claims, concentrating instead on dubious attacks on various aspects of evolution theories.

    I recently sparred with a creationist in chat format. He scoffed and ridiculed, but never back up his scorn with any type of evidence, relying instead on groundless, obstinate, denial. Furthermore, when I carried the fight to him, asking him to give creationist explanations to questions that evolution accounts for, he responded with enigmatically NON answers, such as "It doesn't matter why whales have hips, next question.", and "I couldn't care less why moles have subcutaneous eyes."

    Even if we dispose of the unshakable evidence of evolution found in fossils, geology, and biology, perhaps the most convincing proof of evolution sets on the tongues of evolution deniers themselves in their complete and laughable inability to disprove it.


  14. #14
    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Although this is what's known as "fighting the hypo" in law school, shouldn't there be a third choice? As in "both"?
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
    - Luke
    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
    - Boss, re Luke

    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

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    Banned Madcap's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Seriously, read up on it.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    GNberet~ Holy shit! A sensible person! I've seen the loch fucking ness monster!

    Evolution and creation are NOT mutually exclusive. You CAN belive one based on evidence and still believe the other! Nothing says God isn't there!

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Evolution

    I've always been amused by the question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

    The egg, of course. Before that, whatever was laying the eggs was not quite a chicken, although it would have been fairly close. Then one day evolution does its bit, again, and something different hatches from the egg. Ever so slightly....keeping in mind these extremely slight changes may take thousands and thousands of years. Anyway, this thing that hatched was a chicken. It survived, reproduced, and eventually we had.......the chicken.

    I am an agnostic. Perhaps an extreme agnostic. That is, I am pretty much an atheist, but I'm willing to concede that it is just as likely that I am wrong as the liklihood of being right.

    For the most part, I don't mind religious sects. The majority of them seem to be based on common laws that we would like to have in our society anyway. Don't steal your neighbor's shit.....don't fuck his wife......and be good to your parents. Perhaps those rules weren't working so one day someone added "Or you'll go to HELL...you'll go to HELL and you DIE!"

    I dunno....religion amuses me. As with the rest of our world, humans have really fucked it up.
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
    -Humphrey Bogart

    "Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
    -Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
    "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."
    -His reply

    "If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs."
    -David Daye

  18. #18
    Member Pei Mei's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    I believe in Death.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Cheery fellow.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    I think I just felt my IQ being sucked out....
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
    -Humphrey Bogart

    "Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
    -Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
    "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."
    -His reply

    "If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs."
    -David Daye

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Honestly, I read a LOT on this subject and evolution makes the most sense.

    Darwinian evolution, is a little like the Tyrranosaur: Meaning extinct. He was right about some things, but Evolutionary science has moved WAY beyond Darwin.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Amazingly, a lot of people are still stuck on the old Darwin theory regarding humans evolving from apes. "I refuse to believe we evolved from apes." Well...that's good, slick, because that ain't the theory anymore.
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
    -Humphrey Bogart

    "Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
    -Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
    "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."
    -His reply

    "If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs."
    -David Daye

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    It never was.

    Darwin never proposed that. I have no idea where thet came from. Never once in "the Origin od species" by Charles Darwin does it claim that humans evolved FROM apes.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    One of the most common reasons people are so desperate to prove Darwin wrong is because they have interpreted his theories to imply that humans evolved from apes. This was not however, his assertion.
    Well I'll be durned. Thanks for the education. And I read about the S.S. Beagle, too. I hang my head in shame.

    LONG LIVE DEVO!
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
    -Humphrey Bogart

    "Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
    -Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
    "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."
    -His reply

    "If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs."
    -David Daye

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtjohnny link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg140051#msg140 051 date=1090214128
    Everybody has a religious belief to some degree. Even the most ardent Athiest practices Religion. Secular Humanism is also a Religion. So you cannot get around religion and you cannot say you have no Religion. By saying that, to you that becomes your Religion.

    As for me, I am a Christian and I know almost all theology and almost the entire Bible as I went to Christian Schools all my life however, I dislike being termed "Religious" as it can have a negative meaning and it a term that can also be applied to Satanist, which is another topic.

    Again back to the subject, I cannot accept a theory that says in essence that my ancestors from a billion or so years ago was a blob of goo that somehow became a Fish that became a Land Creature then walked upright. Then after a long time formed a great Civilization, developed Language, Culture and Government on its own and somehow knew how to use analytical and reasoning thought. Developed Math and Science and the Arts. And on top of it all did so without any direction.

    To me, evolution is what does not answer anything about humanity.

    I just cannot except that this Life is all there is.

    Apparantly Darwin's theorys did not work with you. :'(












    Below is just the opinion of AinNY dont get your panties in a bunch....you've been warned


    Religion is crutch....its for the weak....people who need something to believe in....people who "I just cannot except that this Life is all there is".....people who need to believe there is a heaven to do good things....people who need to believe there is more than whats on this planet....that if they pray hard enough God is really going to help them. BULLSHIT...i'll help myself...no one is going to help me....im a good person for myself and for others, not so that God can judge me when I die and I can go to heaven(not that I really even believe in an after life-but thats another issue). I wont get too much into this.....and I was raised catholic, my mother, my father, my whole family are devout catholics...i just dont buy it.

    I dont blame people or judge people for being religious...if thats what you like to do or need to do more power to ya.

    "Not having a religion is a religion" might be dumbest thing I ever heard. (thats like saying if I got my left foot cut off that "having no left foot is my left foot )

    I love how people will criticize science but they will take everythign a man made bunch of hear-say(sp?) stories written in a book thousands of years ago as 100% irrefutable(sp?) truth.

    Live life for today and for whats around you...sorry to burst your bubble but its not going to get any better....especially not when you die...if you think it is...you should go hang otu with Osama and his friends and their 70 virgins

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    By CuriousJ in forum Political Poo
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    Last Post: 02-24-2005, 06:22 AM

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