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Thread: Creation or Evolution

  1. #76
    madmaxine
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Science is God's tool to engineer life on this earth in this ecosystem. I had the great pleasure of working in the wildlife biology field, and I witnessed the great grace that is God in beautiful plants and trees, different animals, rivers, lakes, and oceans. The night sky and stars, the sun, the moon, the other plants. The beauty of symmetry, and the mysterious evolutionary lynchpin that is...asymmetry and mutations!
    Why can't people live with a mystery? One story relating to this topic: I had to have my wisdon teeth extracted a few years back. I was referred to an oral surgeon who had me watch a film explaining that wisdom teeth came from earlier stages of human evolution where Neandrathals had longer jaws with more teeth. As humans evolved into more delicate creatures, many humans had not the space for extra large molars.
    He STRONGLY disagreed with the film, after he explained his personal creationist theory on wisdom teeth (uh, I forget what) I left his office and refused to have the surgery done by him. Too flaky!
    My theory? God gave humans extra molars in case they happened to lose their other ones, so they wouldn't starve. That's what happened to me, I retained my bottom two to replace two permanent molars that were pulled.


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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    I keep being asked what proof there is of the big bang, and how i can believe in something so silly without proof (i wish the questioner's would stop, for a moment, and think about how stupid that sounds coming from a creationist). So here it is...

    The first piece of evidence supporting the Big Bang Theory is the Doppler shift,also called the red shift, of other galaxies. This effect was noted by Edwin Hubble around1930. The Doppler shift is like the change in sound a train horn makes as the train moves closer or further away. When viewed using spectral analysis, an object moving toward us at high velocity has a blue shift, due to the contraction of light waves. When moving away objects shift to red, due to the expansion of light waves. This indicates that the universe is moving, not static, moving due to the Big Bang. Any other interpretation require effects that have no experimentation or evidence.

    The second piece of evidence is microwave background radiation. The Big Bang Theory predicted a much hotter early universe. In 1964, two reasearchers, Arno Pezias and Robert Wilson accidentally discovered that space was not absolutely cold, but three degrees Kelvin. The raised temperature is due to the radiation of photons. The distribution of photons was measured, and, according to Plank's black body radiation curve, equaled the number necessary to achieve a temperature of three degrees Kelvin. The interpretation of this radiation bath is that it is heat left over from the Big Bang, and again, no other suitable explanation exists. Let me add that the researchers responsible for this discovered it accidentally. They worked for a telephone company, and were not attempting to support the Big Bang Theory.

    The third piece of evidence is something creationists have long said was impossible: an indirect way to test the theory in a laboratory. The Big Bang Theory predicts that the universe started cooling fractions of a second after the explosion. Also predicted was that this rapid cooling would produce strings and other topologies in the structure of space-time. The same mechanisms should produce string like vortices when heated liquid helium cools into a super-fluid state. This is akin to what happens when water freezes and leaves cracks and lines in the ice cubes. Two teams of scientists *found* just such vortices.

    Creationists can continue to deny the Big Bang, just as they deny Evolution, until they are blue in the face, but just like evolution, the Big Bang is a fact that they cannot deny away.

    This, however, says nothing about the existance or non-existance of god.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Some common Creationist arguments, and evolutionist responses...

    Punctuated Equilibrium Proves Darwin Wrong
    Evolution deniers, in their denial, have misunderstood, either naively or intentionally, the healthy debate among scientists about the causal agents of organic change. They take the exchange of ideas and the self correcting nature of scienceas evidence that the field is coming apart at the seams. Eldredge and Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium is a refinment and improvement on Darwin's theory and no more proves it wrong than Einsteinian relativity proves Newton wrong.

    Lack of Transitional Fossils
    What lack? In human origin, we have Australopithecus, Homo Habilis, Homo Erectus, Early Sapiens, Cro-Magnon, and modern humans. There have even been finds that demonstrate transition between the species. The 1972 find at the site of Koobi Fora in Kenya beautifully depicts a transition between Australopithecus and Homo Habilis. We have Ambulocetus Natans, a transitional form between land mammal and whale. We have Archeopteryx, part bird, part reptile.
    With seismic upheavel, erosion, consumption by predatory or scavenging animals, and the possibility of punctuated equilibrium it is fortunate that we have the wealth of fossils we possess today.

    If We Descended From Apes, Why Are There Still Apes Around?
    This one tries my patience every time I hear it. First, Let me say this loud and clear. WE DID NOT DESCEND FROM APES! We share a common ancestor with apes. The fact that evolution deniers persist in thinking evolutionist believe we are descended from apes, indicates to me that they don't even bother to look into the science they strive continuously to discredit.

    What Scientists Call Evolution is Only Adaptation
    Moles have subcutaneous eyes. cave fish have no eyes, but their skulls clearly indicate that their ancestors did. Whales have vestigial hipbones. Organs and limbs don't disappear due to adaptation. they disappear because of evolution. The creature no longer has the need to divert energies toward building these organs and limbs, so the information for building them gets edited out of their genetic codes.

    Losing Limbs and Organs is Devolution, Not Evolution
    Oh, so you can have one and not the other? Eyes are soft tissue and easily damaged. If they are no longer needed, it makes perfect sense to evolve away from them, as they are now a hinderance, a waste of energy to build and maintain, and an area of vulnerability to attack. In water, legs would increase resistance, slowing the creature, and again present targets of attack for predators, so water dwelling animals evolved away from legs.. These are indications of evolution, not devolution, whatever that is.

    Fossils Are Planted by Satan to Test Our Faith
    These people are so out of touch with reality, as to make debate impossible. Should you encounter one in person, and I have once, my advice would be to speak calmly and reassuringly, make no sudden movements, and back away slowly.

    The Flood Accounts For Fossil Stratification
    Humans drown in floods all the time, why do they only appear in upper levels? Why are bottom dwelling marine invertabrates found at all levels of strata? Why are whales and dolphins found only at high levels, while marine reptiles of simular shape and size found much lower? Why did not one trilobite float up to a higher strata? And finally, why would fish drown at all?

    Radiometric Dating is Inaccurate and Circular in Reasoning
    We have several tools in the dating of fossils. Some of these are potassium 40, which decays to argon 40, with a half life of 1250 million years. rubidium 87, which decays to strontium 87, with a half life of 4880 million years. And uranium 238, which decays through a series of elements to lead 206, with a half life of 4470 million years. In conjunction with radiometric dating, we use lithostratigraphy, or rock sequencing. Then we apply the fossil index. This gives us three seperate and independant references to the date.
    As far as inaccuracy to radiometric dating, external factors, such as pressure, temperature, chemicals, cosmic radition, or nearby supernovas, only marginally alter the results. Supernovas could theoretically alter the results to read too young, not older. All other experimentation indicates that any other forces could not affect radiation decay by more than 1%.

    Potassium-Argon Dating is Invalid Due to Infiltration From Outside Sources
    There are times when potassium-argon dating will give anamolous readings. Basalts formed from deep ocean volcanic eruptions are one of these. However, these anomolies are recognized and compensated for by measuring the amount of argon 36, and using the known isotopic composition of atmospheric argon to make the correction.

    Life is Too Complex to Have Not Been Created
    Researchers agree that the spontaneous manufacture of amino acids, nitrogen bases, sugars, etc. is no problem, and have demonstrated this. (Urey,Miller1974) There have even been a number of successes assembling as many as twelve nucleotides into strings under prebiotic conditions, and polypeptides can then be formed from simple amino acids. The discoveries of Watson and Crick in the 1950's demonstrated that polynucleotides have an intrinsic ability, almost a desire to associate with complimentary strings, hence DNA. When these strands drift apart, due to intense heat, they may serve as templates for new models, and self-replication has begun. They can grow in length by the same process. The template synthesis is not perfect, occasionaly a nucleotide is put in a different position, causing the mutation that leads to diversity. Natural selection preserves the gains, and eliminates the mistakes.
    The process of molecular self assembly had millions of years to begin. It took place, not in an isolated area, but on a world wide scale. Once the process was started, and the proper molecules had bonded, it suddenly moved into an entirely different game, that of diversification. While the numerical odds of it occuring seem staggering at first, also staggering is the incredible amount of time it had to work with.

    Darwin Renounced Evolution Before He Died
    Not according to his personal notes, possessed by his family. Also, please note that religion has always raised an oppresive hand to those who question their authority. Remember what the Holy Inquisition threatened Galileo with for stating that the Earth revolves around the Sun? If religion will stoop so low as torture and murder, then lies about a dead man is easily within its capabilities.

    The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics Proves Evolution Did Not Occur
    The 2nd law applies to systems that are both closed and thermally isolated from their surroundings. Living organisms take in and expel matter and exchange heat with their surroundings, making them open systems.
    Also, organisms take in foodstuffs that contain highly ordered, low entropy molecules, like proteins and starches, and excrete wastes that contain less ordered molecules. Therefore, an organism discards matter with a greater entropy content into its environment than the matter it takes in. Energy, heat, and entropy transfers within subsystems operating inside a closed system are perfectly allowable under the laws of thermodynamics. So the argument is invalid under either open or closed systems.

    Australopithecus Was Only an Ape
    Australopithecus had an upright posture, as indicated by the entry position of the spine into the skull. The spine entered the skull from the bottom, not from an angle. An angle would indicate a quadraped, or the occasional biped, like an ape. The bottom entry position indicates that Australopithecus was an upright walker. Biomechanical studies performed on the hips also indicates bipedial locomotion. One last piece of evidence that Australopithecus was not an ape is the canines which did not protrude beyond the other teeth in a functional manner. In this Australopithecus resembles homo sapien, and no other primate.
    With the brain of an ape, and the upright posture of a man, Australopithecus is the transitional fossil.

    How Could the Universe be Created From Nothing?
    This is a funny thing for evolution deniers to ask, as their creation "theory" says the same thing, but here goes.
    The total known energy in the universe adds up to almost zero. The potential energy of the gravitational attraction of the galaxies is proportional to the mass of the galaxies. Since energy must be supplied to push the galaxies apart, as is shown by red shift, this creates an incredible amount of negative energy. The mass energy of every particle in the universe creates an incredible amount of positive energy.
    At the moment, known positive energy is smaller than known negative energy by about a factor of ten. If the remaining numbers equal zero, then the universe could be created from vacuum. Scientists are looking for these numbers called missing mass, and there are several theories that could account for it, including dark matter, neutrino mass, and black holes.
    My personal theory involves the existance of a black hole in the center of most, if not all, spiral galaxies. While black holes have yet to be completely and irrevocably proven, there is proof that something is in the center of several galaxies. These somethings behave exactly the way black holes are supposed to. These black holes could account for the missing mass and additionally provide for the mechanisms for my personal theory.
    Phoenix Universe Hypothesis
    By Madcap
    As entropy increases, the universe slows, grinds to a halt, contract. The galaxies collapse into their parenting black holes, fiery chaos ensues. The black holes begin to attract each other, they converge, and collapse into each other, forming a super black hole. The super black hole, being inherently unstable, explodes. The process of creation begins anew out of the ashes of nothingness.


    *whew*

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    This topic is obviously supposed, forever and forever, to remain a mystery. I for one believe there is much more than meets the eye. I feel humans understand the equivlent to 1 grain of sant amongst all the sant on earth. I also feel earth is about the same porportion to the entire universe. There are billions and billions of planets out there. We are truelty insignificant, yet vitally important in our own paths to become divine beings of light....

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    Well i have to disagree with you there. A lot of people weild the size of the universe like a club, it's unclear whether they are trying to educate people or scare the shit out of them. Earth is, by definition, NOT insignifigant. It's a hell of a lot more signifigant than, say, Triton, or Mercury. Venus is the closest thing to the ninth circle of hell that we know of.

    It's possible that life existed once on Mars, and may still exist on Europa. But that's three worlds among thousands that exist in our solar system alone (Counting all the moons, the asteroid belt, the Oort cloud, and the Kuiper belt, well and the lone asteroids).

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    the difference betewwn humans and all other previous beings on earth is that we all have a soul, and a spirit. We can engineer the most advanced computer, capable of billions of functions per second, but we can never create an emotion, or a living cell. We cannot compare bumans to similar beings before us, because no prior lifeform displays any feeling of emotion or soul, just the willingness to survive and reproduce. We are nit much different, but we have Godlike capabilities, even thought 99.99999% of us fail to ever use them. I feel there will be a transition in the future (next 100,000 years) where humans will reach a point where they will start living more like God, and reach there true potential. I feel humans will switch to fruitarianism and then breatharianism and then be nourished solely by prana, or air and light. We are starting to comprehend that even with our brilliant advances in medicine, humans continue to be the sickest beings on the planct, and hospitals are still full to capacity. I truely believe that less than 1 in 1 million humans even have the slightest idea what true health feels like. We will reach a point where we will see the err of our ways and we will start to break this worldwide addiction of eating for pleasure, and we will start eating for health, and then eating little or nothing at all... People have alreadt begun to do exactly this, but it will take tens of thousdands of years to be commonplace, and we will all still be here in different bodies, trying to reach perfection.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    To each there own. Can't say i ever believed in reincarnation, though.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    If there is a such thing as reincarnation,I want to come back as a pet dog with someone like me to take care of me.I LOVE ANIMALS!!!
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

    一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    I wanna come back as an Amoeba or a Paramecium.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg143574#msg143 574 date=1090741319
    I wanna come back as an Amoeba or a Paramecium.
    No one will be able to see you then.
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

    一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.

    中国大CHINESE BIG BOOBS!!!中国大




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    Then i'll have you all right where i want you!

    MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    evolution cannot possibly make 1 shread of sense because the basic premise of evolution is that species will try to continually advance and become higher beings yet cockroaches have stayed exactly the same for billions of years. this directly contradicts the whole theory of evolving, or evolution itself. Besides, perfecting a limb with digits for example would take millions of years to perfect according to evolutionists. Yet, this very process of having a half-limb during "evolution" would be a disadvantage to the species and would not take place. the very process of growing a limb would tremendously hinder the species. The ONLY ONLY ONLY possible scenario would be that ALL species coexisted at one time, and humans are proving to be the only successful ones. Sure we have found bones from some old species, but they prove nothing but that these species existed, NOT that they are a distant cousin of modern humans. We are getting to a point very quickly where humans will be the only species left, and PLANTS which we have no competition with for oxygen becasue we have a symbiotic balance where we trade gases. As it is right now, we are losing thousands of species a day, and no new ones are being created. YES, new ones may be discovered, but that does NOT mean that they are new to the planet, just new to US. Also, according to evolution there wouldn't even be any fluid species, just a bunch of organisms seeking to be the highest lifeform, which obviously isnt true since most if not all species have remaind exactly the same for millenia. The evolution theory do not hold water.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Damn,this is Madcap's conspiracy of "Big Brother".He can see us,but we can't see him.Hey..................that's not fair!
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

    一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by onlythebest link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg143572#msg143 572 date=1090741153
    If there is a such thing as reincarnation,I want to come back as a pet dog with someone like me to take care of me.I LOVE ANIMALS!!!
    According to mysticism that is entirely possible. Humans can go down to a lower species and spend possibly millions of years trying to work back up to humanity, only to usually mess it all up over again.

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    God/dess onlythebest's Avatar
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    But I don't want to come back as a human.Most humans suck.I just want to be blissfully ignorant and content.
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

    一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.

    中国大CHINESE BIG BOOBS!!!中国大




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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by RYAN link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg143578#msg143 578 date=1090741484
    evolution cannot possibly make 1 shread of sense because the basic premise of evolution is that species will try to continually advance and become higher beings yet cockroaches have stayed exactly the same for billions of years.
    No. They haven't (Not to mention that multicellular life isn't even one billion years old, there have only been land animals for 600 million years). Plus, a species only changes when it has to. Sharks, for instance have stayed the same for 55 million years. This is not against evolution. Evolution is this: A genetic change within a given population in response to outside stimuli, and that is IT.

    Besides, perfecting a limb with digits for example would take millions of years to perfect according to evolutionists.
    Avtually, there are a lot of better ways to do it. We have five fingers because some fish had five bones in it's fin.

    Yet, this very process of having a half-limb during "evolution" would be a disadvantage to the species and would not take place.
    Things don't just vanish. It's a process. You tell me, why do whales have hipbones then?

    the very process of growing a limb would tremendously hinder the species.
    Not really. Sometimes it does, but those species die off.

    The ONLY ONLY ONLY possible scenario would be that ALL species coexisted at one time, and humans are proving to be the only successful ones.
    This never happened. Never. Not ever.

    Sure we have found bones from some old species, but they prove nothing but that these species existed, NOT that they are a distant cousin of modern humans.
    Some of them are. Neanderthal, for instance, was not while Homo erectus and Austrelopithicus was.

    We are getting to a point very quickly where humans will be the only species left, and PLANTS which we have no competition with for oxygen becasue we have a symbiotic balance where we trade gases.
    Humans would be extinct long before that happened.

    As it is right now, we are losing thousands of species a day, and no new ones are being created.
    Actually, evolution has been observed in a lab. Plus the english white moth has turned dusty greay ever since the industrial revolution. You'll have to try again. All you have to do is look at fruitflies to SEE evolution in action. Bacteria too.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Evolution, if only because I've been taught to think for myself and primarily from empirical data.
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

    Ernest Hemingway on writer, aviation pioneer and horse trainer Beryl Markham


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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    See?

    Nina knows all.

  19. #94
    madmaxine
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Madcap, thank you for the evolution info. How many people would be surprised to find this discussion on a BBs for strippers?....Ladies, remember, the whole reason we make money at what we do is that we can produce life. It could be said we are closer to God because of that little fact. The whole world owes us, ha ha!

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxine link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg143616#msg143 616 date=1090746337
    How many people would be surprised to find this discussion on a BBs for strippers?....
    That's because some people can't get past their own preconceptions. Thank the proverbial God that I am not one of those people. Actually i pity them.

    Anyone who can look at Ferarri, or Lexi, or Gynger and see only a Stripper is a sad, sad individual.

  21. #96
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    Thanks to Madcap for posting that tonnage of information.

    A few observations. We are likely descended from australopithecines, but not from the whole genus Australopithecus. One Australopithecus fossil trail goes robust (heavier teeth and bones, ridged skull), another went gracile (lighter dentition, more nimble). We are more like the graciles.

    The Big Bang nicely accommodates the most observable phenomenon, but there are still questions that remain, and it's still a theory. Check out inflation theory (the universe began from nothingness out of a negative vacuum fluctuation) and ekpyrotic theory (a bit difficult to grasp - our universe is a membrane, one of many, and ... well, it's a bit difficult) for alternative theories. They fill several holes that the Big Bang presently does not, athough they're far from perfected. Fom our viewpoint, an inflationary universe would be indistinguishable from a Big Bang universe.

    The Vatican gave its stamp of acceptance to the Big Bang theory. Not that it matters, because it doesn't, but it just goes to show that a lot of religious thinking has, well, evolved in the last few hundred years. Catholics and many other religious students are taught that God can use what God wants to us to get the job done, including evolutionary processes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg143617#msg143 617 date=1090746496
    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxine link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg143616#msg143 616 date=1090746337
    How many people would be surprised to find this discussion on a BBs for strippers?....
    That's because some people can't get past their own preconceptions. Thank the proverbial God that I am not one of those people. Actually i pity them.

    Anyone who can look at Ferarri, or Lexi, or Gynger and see only a Stripper is a sad, sad individual.
    The issue of stereotypes is exactly to the point of the way this discussion tends to go off point in society. First I must state that I am solidly in the Evolution camp although not as "popularly" proclaimed as "survival of the fittest". I would describe it as "survival of the lucky-adequate" if forced to condense evolution to a catch phrase.

    At the time Darwin wrote, there were a number of atheist who foolishly thought "now we have a way to deflate those yokels who believe in God". The existence of God (or lack) has no bearing on the correctness of the theory abd vice versa. The other side (also foolishly) thought "well we can fight atheism by fighting evolution." They were equally distracted by irrelevant considerations. Of course not all one either side believed this, but the bigmouths took over the discussion.

    The prejudices and stereotypes of people on both sides just made the whole thing worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg143611#msg143 611 date=1090744863
    See?

    Nina knows all.
    Who, moi? Nah, I just think I do!
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

    Ernest Hemingway on writer, aviation pioneer and horse trainer Beryl Markham


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    Quote Originally Posted by NinaDaisy link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg143710#msg143 710 date=1090773153
    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap link=board=1;threadid=11146;start=msg143611#msg143 611 date=1090744863
    See?

    Nina knows all.
    Who, moi? Nah, I just think I do!
    Nina is highly evolved and MC and I are Neandethals. All hail Nina, or Else. LOL. She has minions to do her dirty work.

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    Default Re:Creation or Evolution

    I have very mixed views, and forgive me if I sound ignorant, but anyway...

    I believe in creation. I believe that SOMETHING is responsible for making this world so perfect, and by that I mean...
    We are the PERFECT distance from the sun. Most animals and humans serve a purpose.
    Worms, whom I despise and have a severe phobia of, even have a purpose. They go through the soil, making tunnels....these tunnels supply air for the roots of the plants. Those plants are the ones who give off the air we breathe. etc...
    Just like there are humans who are a waste, or like the appendix which serves no purpose, I am sure someone will say that there are animals with no purpose. Right, but thats with everything.

    But the point is....everything we are is perfect. We eat because we need to survive, we sleep because we need to have our bodies function the next day, etc...

    Look at conception. How PERFECT is that? (aside from problems, obviously) Look how how we have emotions.
    Where did THAT come from? As someone mentioned, we cant make emotions. Did "evolution" make emotion? Doesnt sound right.

    However, I also believe in people evolving, and adaptation is something too factual to even argue. But besides all that, i do believe that there is more than we know.

    Humans tend to think that if they dont have the answer to something, then its not there.
    When people speak of spirits, others laugh it off. Why? Because they either havent seen it, or felt it. But others have.
    Why do we think that we are the only people in this world? There ARE other galaxies other than this one, and there may be life on others as well. It would be sorta ignorant to thnk that in this entire universe its only about us.


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