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Thread: Being Ripped Off

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    Default Being Ripped Off

    Why do I hear so many stories about dancers being ripped off and a guy having some lame excuse trying to cover himself.

    Why isn't money always taken before a dance?

    Not trying to be rude just wondering why it is different to Australia and why girls lose out if they can't just ask before the dance?

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    I always tried to get my money upfront whenever possible,

    BUT

    more than a few guys wont pony up prior to a dance-- so sometimes a dancer is forced to risk it.

    And unfortunatly dancers get burned on the deal here and there

    Maybe this question should go to the guys or on SCJ ???

    Guys why, if you have every intention of paying, why not pay upfront for at least the 1st song ?


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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    A lot depends on the club. I danced in one place in East St. Louis where every dance was paid up front. If you know East St. Louis, you know why. A club in the same chain in Louisville, you would get laughed at if you asked for it up front, at least from the regulars. Of course, I never got burned in either place, so it seems to work.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    In NY we pay upfront to the club and collect at the end of the night 1/2 the money. I think it is very annoying to have to ask for more upfront, I have an easier time selling multiple dances when I don't have to get money upfront.

    In MD I never collected before the dance, some guys paid upfront anyway, only once I got burnt and that was because I was dumb, he bought a dance and then wanted to go into the champagne room, so handed me more than enough money so I could pay the room fee - well, I didn't ask the waittress for change so she ended up with a $45 tip for that champagne room.
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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    this was discussed at length among the scj guys. it's really maddening in a way, because many guys will get fewer (or just one) dances if a girl asks for the money upfront (unless it's the overall club policy, like paying the club for dances/rooms or something), but nearly everyone here who waits a couple songs in to 'check in' and collect every few songs or at the end of several songs has a story about being screwed out of money. i collect every couple of songs and just cross my fingers on it.

    it's different to an extent with rooms, though. it's more usually policy for a guy to pay room fees and the dancer's fee for the room upfront in many places, so it's less likely to be a ripoff in that case.

    and some guys want to pay for several dances upfront without you asking. god bless them.

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    Featured Member The_Oceans's Avatar
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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Unless it's the club policy (such as a place where the customer has to buy dance tickets or tokens), I just don't feel comfortable paying for a dance up front. For me, here's what it is: If the dancer gets payment up front, she's made her sale, and may feel she doesn't have to try as hard to entertain him; whereas if the customer hasn't paid yet, she still has some work to do to impress him, whether it's for a tip on top of the dance price, or additional dances.

    (Granted, I'm not one to stiff a dancer anyway; I'm one of those that keeps track of the number of LDs along with the dancer to make sure we're all playing fair.)

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    Featured Member Chili Palmer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    It's inexcusable behavior to ever try and get away without paying for a lap, especially if the club charges by the lap and it costs the dancer money for doing so.

    That said, it is far more prevalent (and there are many threads on this site to prove it) of dancers who do their best to rip the customer off (the usual refrain around here is "the drunker, the better, that way I can overcharge the stupid bastards...").

    As noted, unless your club specifically requires pre-payment, any dancer who asks upfront for money (or asks for more, or asks for a tip) is pretty much considered, by the veteran lappers who actually have the money, either a ROB or an upseller and is rarely worth the investment when all is said and done.

    There are two clubs I go to in LA where this is practiced (Imperial Showgirls in Pico Rivera and Baby Dolls in Pomona). At both clubs, you pay at the bar for the first dance, then pay the dancer directly if subsequent laps are purchased. At both clubs, one dance is the norm for most PLs. It appears to be a lot easier for guys to simply stop the dancer if they aren't paying anymore than it is to ask them to continue. This is strictly anecdotal on my part, but this theory is based on hundreds of hours at these clubs vs. clubs where the dancers take all the "risk" and responsibility for payment. Payment upfront appears to really limit the dancers' earnings here.

    Not trying to blame the victim, but I'd be curious to find out how many of these customer ripoffs were actually the result of a dancer thinking she reeled in a sucker when she turned out to be the one being played. It's always good (and not in poor taste) to remind your customer where you stand when the dance count is getting up there (say, 5 or more) and make sure he's still good to go. This also lets the veteran lapper know you aren't a ROB (as dancer miscounts are notorious in many clubs).

    Like the saying goes, don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Just because one punk ass college kid who spent his whole allowance on the cover charge and first drink tries to get a dance for free, don't change your attitude towards the dudes like me who buy their laps in bulk, but only to those who don't cop a 'tude and forget who is footing the bills.

    One final note: don't most of your clubs have some type of closed circuit surveillance in them? Why not post a vidcap in the dressing room of those who ran out on their laps so all the dancers can remember to avoid them if they actually have the balls to return? Also, where are the bouncers when all this happening? If this happened at Spearmint Rhino, any one of the six steroid brothers would pound the sucker into the ground AND get his ATM PIN number.

    CP

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Chili,
    The closed circuit camera thing is practically a joke. Clubs have them for liability purposes to cover their own asses! What manager is going to take time out of his busy drinking and schmoozing on the floor with customer schedule to stop a tape, rewind it with the dancer to find the offense, HOLD the culprit while this is happening, SHOW him the tape, and force him to pay......

    Its not going to happen. Some clubs even make dancers sign the contract that the club is NOT responsible for getting the money for girls so they have to ask up front. I don't ask up front, that is just not done in Texas. We just have to risk it basically........

    When I've been ripped off, I just whine to management until they give me free house fees until the amount lost is reimbursed. Also, that guy is outta there on his ass!!!!

    Be good to management/bouncers and they will do their best to help......

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Yeah, most places will just say "well if you want to be sure, just get the money upfront"

    To me, it isn't so much credit as like a resturant, you take it on good faith the patron is going to pay - though I imagine it is treated differently when a customer doesn't/can't pay.
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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    If I am unsure of the guy, usually we talk about the prices before a dance, but like I said, IF I am unsure I have him put the money on the table or shelf near the couch. This way I am not asking for it I just tap that area while I undress and say "do you mind putting the money here, thanks!"
    Please don't lick me, it tickles..



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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    good advice Doc, I totally agree.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Just my opinion would you like it if your broker made asked how many trades you would be making in the next month and would you pay for them in advance or your waiter asking you to pay for your food up front (except fast food which you usually get at the same time anyways).Have you ever had to call a plumber or ac guy?You pay after.I'm sure some girls here have gone to electrologist what if she asked you how long you will go for and would you pay up front.If any of these people asked you this you probably would not like it.What I am getting at is you are performing a service and that is just the way the service industry is.There are risks in every field of work and getting stiffed on a dance here or there just goes with the territory.If I were to get a dance and the girl asks me for money up front I would laugh in her face and get up and walk away and grab the nearest dancer no matter how rank she is and get dances with her to spite you.Now it is a different story if he decices to pay up front on his own nothing wrong with taking the cash then.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Quote Originally Posted by Dago26
    If I were to get a dance and the girl asks me for money up front I would laugh in her face and get up and walk away and grab the nearest dancer no matter how rank she is and get dances with her to spite you.
    Well, I'd then be laughing at YOU for putting yourself in the position of having to endure her rankness up close and personal. LOL

    I've always wondered exactly what makes some guys think we're so attached to the idea of giving them a dance. Seriously, if I don't get the dance from you it's no sweat, I'll get it from someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Let me ask you something you laugh when you lose out on money?Your sharp!

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    Seriously, if I don't get the dance from you it's no sweat, I'll get it from someone else.
    Guess you missed that. I am too busy to worry about dealing with guys with bad attitudes, so I laugh at them while I'm dancing for the next guy

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Guys why, if you have every intention of paying, why not pay upfront for at least the 1st song ?
    I always offer to pay for the first song up front, unless it's someone I've known for a while.

    What you're experiencing here is the (often drunken) instantaneous OH SHIT reaction that typically comes from a male who has just run up a quick bill of $100+ because he was thinking with his johnson...and when the dances are over he suddenly thinks "My gf is gonna kill me!" or "I don't have that much in my account!" He panics and runs and then later probably brags about it to his buddies like the cheap little hairless-nutsack he has in his pants.

    It won't stop happening...but obviously there are precautions that can be taken to help cut down on its frequency.
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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    There are a few reasons why customers might be put off a bit by a dancer asking for cash upfront - many of them have already been stated. However, one common thing that I have noticed is that each time the dancer asked for payment up front, the dance that followed was generally subpar. My impression was that the dancer had previously run into trouble with customers not wanting to pay for her substandard dances and lacked the confidence to risk waiting for payment after the dance.

    Now unfortunately, due to my experiences, when a dancer wants to me to pre-pay for a dance and it is not club policy to do so, my first instinct is to think that I'm going to get a poor, lethargic dance. Of course on the flip side for the dancer, pre-payment guarantees payment for at least one dance - which I guess is good.

    I also agree with the rest of the previous posters that pre-payment is a buzzkill and disincentive to purchase more dances. As a serial lapper, I'm much more inclined to let the good times roll if someone isn't constantly asking me to go to my pocket for more cash between dances. It could get a bit tiresome on dance #7 digging in for my 7th $20 bill.

    Not to mention, often times here I read about the "fantasy", while we men want and understand the fantasy, generally the "fantasy" does not include a request for payment every 4 minutes.

    In short, that is why some guys are put off by a dancer asking for pre-payment for dances even thought they know they are gonna pay and probably tip.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    The overwhelming consensus among guys who are put off by a dancer asking for payment up front is that they feel she'll give a "subpar" dance, so perhaps that dance being "subpar" is a result of YOU GUYS automatically copping a bad attitude about the prepayment. Any dancer wants to sell more than one dance in a row, so it follows that most would do their best to do a good dance whether paid up front or not. I personally do the same dance regardless of when I'm paid, but my dance quality definitely DOES suffer when dealing with a guy with a bad attitude. It's maddening that so many guys expect the girls to do all the giving and bending in the customer/dancer relationship. Yes we are in the service business but we are not robots, so perhaps you guys could be a lil understanding once in a while!

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Chicken? Meet Egg. Egg? Chicken.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    To briefly reply to Bridgette - certainly at first when someone asked for pre-payment I thought nothing of it - and happily handed over my money for a dance. It was only after it had happened a few times that I started to notice a trend. I'm sure this is not the case for all dancers - that would be an unfair generalization. I'm also sure that there are plenty of dancers with professionalism who give the same dance whether you pay up front or pay later.

    Even after I noticed the disturbing trend, while in my own mind, I may have been skeptical, I'm open-minded and fair, and did not project an air of dissatisfaction or gripe to the dancer about paying up front. I certainly see your point that a guy's bad attitude could detract from a dancer's enthusiasm - and I can't blame you if that would affect your desire to give that person as good of a dance. That wasn't the case in my instances.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    I guess I wasn't clear. In clubs where prepayment was required, the locals were cool with the deal (they were used to it, was area standard) but travellers were often major jerks about it and couldn't be pleased. I don't often ask for payment up front in clubs that don't require it. I only do so in situations when I think it's prudent. For example:

    Customer A wants me to dance for Customer B on A's dime. In my experience, many of those Bs don't have the $ and/or are jerks who try to weasle out of paying. A often wanders off while I'm dancing for B (either out of the club or to another corner for dances) making it difficult at best for me to get paid after dancing for B. So I always ask A for the $ up front. In my experience, B is usually an annoying prick and A just can't wait to get rid of him so he can have a good time, so A winds up flagging some poor dancer down to take him back for a dance. In these cases, B is always an ungrateful pig during the dance - too grabby/pushy, complaining about the rules and "short" song, etc. He will usually allude to his belief that my getting paid up front gives him license to be an ass. RARE is the B who is cool and just happens to be receiving payback or goodwill from A in the form of a bought dance.

    If I've been warned by someone else in the club that a particular guy might not pay. These also usually get huffy and overly demanding on the couch. They give me the feeling they think they're somehow "entitled" to treat me like crap because they've already paid. Or perhaps they're just pissed off that I didn't let them get away with the no pay routine, then again maybe they're just jerks. Either way they make it extremely difficult for me to do a proper dance because I'm constantly having to watch their hands, field their obnoxious repetitive questions and generally defend myself from them. They never get more than one dance, whether they want more or not.

    When a guy gives me a bad vibe, is excessively drunk, rude, belligerent, etc. Sometimes these guys refuse to pay up front, which is FINE by me, saves me the hassle of dancing for their sorry asses, whether paid or not. When they do pay, I do my best to perform as well for them as I would anyone, but they often won't let me and I stop dancing on the first song, even if they're asking for more. Sometimes I'm able to get them under control and give them a good dance, and they want more, usually trying to stop to pay me again, at which point I tell them to relax, we can take care of it at the end. This usually makes them happy and they will spend all their money on me.

    No matter what I do, in some situations, I cannot please the guy. I could jerk down their pants and screw them on the spot for free, and they'd complain about my performance or that I made them cum too soon, didn't do the position they wanted or some such drivel.



    Drawing from my own experience, the fact that most dancers always want to sell another dance, and the overwhelming majority of guys who claim dancers who ask for payment up front don't do good dances (which doesn't make much sense because it would be counterproductive for her), I say the blame lies mostly with the guys. I say in most cases, they either gave the girl a reason to feel they needed to collect up front and/or copped attitude when she requested it, and their subsequent poor behaviour made it impossible for her to do a good job on the couch. Some guys simply expect WAY too much.
    Last edited by Bridgette; 10-28-2004 at 02:38 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    I'd also like to add that I find it a bit disturbing that the vast majority of guys say to dancers, "risk of being rippped off is part of the game, get used to it". Any service business has certain safeguards in place to minimize this type of loss. At minimum, they can get the offender arrested for theft of services. Why is it strippers are expected to just lay down and take it, and not do anything to avoid the loss? Because we work on the fringes? Or because we're "just lowly strippers"? Guys can claim not to sit in judgement of us, but when you say something like "it's part of the territory, deal with it", the prejudice really shines through.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    perhaps that dance being "subpar" is a result of YOU GUYS automatically copping a bad attitude about the prepayment.
    Isn't this the truth!

    Pre-paying (in clubs where this is not 'policy') is an act of courtesy, respect for her abilities and trust, which makes a good first impression. On the other hand, committing to something for $X but discord to pay for it "yet.." is a silent notion of distrust or baiting. Which first impression do you think is going to yield the best result given human nature?

    You'll notice the "risk is part of the business... deal with it" people are usually the ones that are trying to stretch their spending dollar or employ horse-and-carrot techniques to improve mileage. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy for their bad experiences, IMO. True entertainers never give insight at the club of how they feel about this ("service with a smile"), but deep down it has at least a subconscious impact. That impact may effect decisions the dancer makes, even if not a conscious effort.

    This is probably why there are so many spin-off sites for customers that resemble locker rooms where the chip-shouldered need to create colorful terms for satisfied customers. They are left scratching their heads why other customers get preferential treatment and always have a great time, while the baiters need a place to vent PL/loser/RIL terms and exchange "strategies" on how to try and get this red carpet treatment for themselves.. which their behavior will never allow. Talk about major "Duh"...
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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Interesting theories.

    I don't care whether a dancer wants payment before or after, but prepayment is not policy in the clubs I visit. Almost all the dancers who have requested prepayment are subpar, and most ask for tips afterward.

    The ones who ask for a tip to go away are the absolute worst.

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    Default Re: Being Ripped Off

    Quote Originally Posted by SportsWriter2
    The ones who ask for a tip to go away are the absolute worst.
    AWESOME!! Should I just say "I'm not leaving unless you pay me to," or is there a subtler way?

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