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Thread: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

  1. #26
    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

    Like the "western world" has any grounds to bitch about cultural exportation.
    Please. Why don't you just oversimplify the history of the colonial period so we can all jump in to lay blame for every socio-economic disparity of the third world at the feet of the Western world?

    If you want to gloss over tribal and ethnic divisions that long preceeded Western colonization of some parts of the world (which has also long since passed into history) because it ostensbily absolves said nations and non-state actors of responsibility for their own actions and motivations in the present day.

    Tell me that what's happening in Zimbabwe is the fault of Western colonization. Tell me that India and Pakistan are at each other's throats today because of British interests. Tell me that the internal divisions and seventy years of PRI rule in Mexico were because the US expanded into the the Southwest in response to Mexican aggression. Tell me that the genocide in Rwanda is directly correlated to Western intervention, when the world blames the West for not getting involved in the ethnic tribalism that fomented the crisis.

    Pick up Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Dimond sometime. Blaming Eurocentric-policies and Western bias only carries the "poor third world victim" argument so far--to the point where it falls flat on its face. And it certainly doesn't whitewash the threat to Western Civilization posed by Islamist movements.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

  2. #27
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

    I think there is something to both points of view here. Imo, it is true both 1) that the Third World uses the First World (or the West, if you prefer) as an excuse for many problems that are really its own doing and 2) that colonization followed by frequent "political meddling" in the post-colonial era by First World powers in the internal affairs of Third World nations has caused the latter (and the former too, for that matter) many serious and needless problems.

    But in any case, at a much lower level (personal rather than geopolitical), it is definitely very ironic for Westerners, especially Americans, to complain about anyone else being "arrogant and culturally demanding" when traveling abroad. As someone who has spent a substantial fraction of my adult life traveling all over the world, 5 continents plus a bunch of islands, I can assure you from personal experience and observation that if there is any nationality that is worse than Americans in this respect, it can only be the French...which is probably why they bug us so much.

    Finally, I very strongly second CO's book recommendation; the Diamond book is just superb and should be read by anyone interested in history and world affairs.

    -Ww
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    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  3. #28
    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

    I was never an advocate of this "war" we have in Iraq, but there's nothing I can do about it. I can tell you I get rather sick of having to tread on eggshells around, for example, the middle easterners who own the 24hr convenience store near my house. I find it rather absurd actually, that I can't go to the friggin store and feel comfortable speaking with my boyfriend about say, the value of international currencies and how recent political events have affected them, without getting nasty looks from the guys behind the counter.

    It's very easy to say westerners are the root of all the problems in the world, especially when most basic history lessons directly or indirectly point to that. However if one takes into account the WHOLE story, one finds that westerners have played a relatively small part in the overall game.

    I too have done my share of international travelling, and I'll be the first to admit that American tourists are among the most brash and obnoxious with expecting to get their way abroad. However I'm talking about immigrants who knowingly move to a country with vastly different ideals and values than theirs and expect to not only be tolerated but even catered to. In my experience, most westerners who move into a different society, do so with the intention of blending at least reasonably with that society, rather than expecting the opposite. Political moves notwithstanding.

    Surely no one here thinks a westerner moving to the middle east would be welcome to behave completely the way they would at home? OTOH, it seems most middle easterners moving to the west feel less obliged to blend into western society.

    Now I am certainly not even close to racist and when it comes to dealing with people everyday I couldn't care less where they came from or what their race is. But at the same time, when dealing with people everyday it becomes hard to ignore the difficulties presented.
    Last edited by Bridgette; 01-10-2005 at 04:01 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

  4. #29
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    I too have done my share of international travelling, and I'll be the first to admit that American tourists are among the most brash and obnoxious with expecting to get their way abroad. However I'm talking about immigrants who knowingly move to a country with vastly different ideals and values than theirs and expect to not only be tolerated but even catered to. In my experience, most westerners who move into a different society, do so with the intention of blending at least reasonably with that society, rather than expecting the opposite. Political moves notwithstanding.
    The distinction between tourists and expats/immigrants is, I agree, a valid and significant one. I would also distinguish a third group - business travelers - who do not necessarily behave, in general, like either of the other two types.

    As for American expats/immigrants living abroad vs other nationalities living here, I'm not sure I can see any particularly clear pattern in my own experience; I have seen ones that "go native" and ones that don't even try to fit into the local culture in both cases. One thing that makes it a bit tricky is that the US is so ethnically and racially diverse (such a melting pot...a good thing, imo) that foreigners who "go native" here sort of disappear; you just think of them as another "flavor" of American when you encounter one. But in many foreign countries, an American who "goes native" and adopts the local culture and lifestyle is still recognized by everyone as an American (or at least a foreigner).

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Well, UK prime minister Neville Chamberlain certainly experimented with other alternatives in the late 30's, with the support of like thinking politicians like Daladier in France and even some here in the US. After their experiment resulted in the loss of some 50 million lives over the following 5 years, many including myself would argue that renewing the failed experiment with islamic terrorists is a risk too large to take.
    First off Chamberlain fought and feared the spread communisim, the example has nothing to do with islam.

    Besides that, uhm... that was in the 1930's , over 70 years ago. Imagine if no experiment of any kind was ever repeated because it didn't work the first time out.......

    The 1930's was a LONG time ago and alot has changed in the world. There have been many advances in life since the 1930's -- But lets not have logic or reason get in the way of the desire to exterminate, er, I mean 'neutralize' millions of people or anything
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 01-10-2005 at 12:18 PM.

  6. #31
    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

    First off Chamberlain fought and feared the spread communisim, the example has nothing to do with islam.
    Actually, Churchill (prior to his PM victory, when he was MoD) feared the communists more than the fascists, but your point remains the same. And so does Melonie's.

    Besides that, uhm... that was in the 1930's , over 70 years ago. Imagine if no experiment of any kind was ever repeated because it didn't work the first time out.......

    The 1930's was a LONG time ago and alot has changed in the world. There have been many advances in life since the 1930's
    So I can quote you the next time someone makes an idiotic Godwinian comparison to the GWB administration and the Third Reich? Sweet!
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Actually, Churchill (prior to his PM victory, when he was MoD) feared the communists more than the fascists, but your point remains the same. And so does Melonie's.



    So I can quote you the next time someone makes an idiotic Godwinian comparison to the GWB administration and the Third Reich? Sweet!

    LMAO. Only if you use it in context, but alas you already have taken it out of context anyway so....

    Also the man she incorrectly said "experimented" with a different approach with Islamic countries was Chamberlain not Churchill, but don't let that stand in the way of your sarcasm

    Chamberlain did try appeasement ( which I am guessing is the tactic Melonie was re: to) instead of preemptive strike and it didn't work in THAT particular situation but it was with Germany, Italy, etc., etc. Not Islamic countries.

    I am not saying yay or nay on appeasment in todays problems, but my original question was- why is preemptive and violent occupation the supposed only way . The answer I got was when appeasment was tried 70 some years ago it didnt work so why try it ever, ever again.

    That just seems shortsighted to me.
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 01-10-2005 at 08:39 PM.

  8. #33
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

    when making Godwin's Law references, it might pay to retrace a bit of history as to which groups actually support Nazis and neo-Nazis ...


    "Al Qaeda`s Neo-Nazi Connections
    Jewish Press ^ | 2/25/2004 | William Grim

    On the surface there would seem to be little to unite the Aryan racialists of the neo-Nazi movement with the terrorists of radical Islam. To the neo-Nazis, Muslims are almost all members of ``inferior`` races; and to the Islamic terrorists, the neo-Nazis are almost without exception either atheists or members of fringe quasi-Christian sects.

    But the reality is that there has been close cooperation between Muslim extremists and Fascists ever since the founding of the Nazi movement in the 1920`s. For all of their differences, Muslim extremists and Nazis have always been united by a common group of beliefs and goals: hatred of Judaism (and conventional Christianity), hatred of democracy, and a desire for the destruction of Israel and the United States.

    A little background is in order. During World War II the rabidly anti-Semitic Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al-Husseini, pledged his unequivocal support to Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist movement. The Grand Mufti was put on the Nazi payroll in 1937 after he met with Adolf Eichmann in Palestine. In fact, when the Grand Mufti had to flee the Middle East in 1941 after the failure of the pro-Nazi coup in Iraq, he was welcomed to Berlin by Hitler and provided with high-power transmitters in order to broadcast pro-Nazi propaganda to the Middle East.

    The Grand Mufti also organized an all- Muslim unit of the SS for Hitler and was instrumental in forming the pro-Nazi Muslim Hanschar brigades in Yugoslavia. After the war and his conviction for war crimes by the Nuremberg Tribunal, the Grand Mufti fled to Egypt where, as part of the ODESSA network of former SS operatives, he maintained close ties to former high-ranking Nazis who were now engaged in gun-running operations to Arab countries fighting the fledgling State of Israel.

    One such ex-Nazi gunrunner was Major General Otto Ernst Remer (1912-1997), known as the ``Godfather of the neo-Nazi movement.`` Remer had a major part in thwarting the Generals` Plot against Hitler in July 1944. Hitler rewarded Remer by putting him in charge of his protection detail. In the chaos of the immediate post-war period, Remer escaped de-Nazification and returned to Germany.

    In 1949 Remer and his associates founded the Sozialistische Reichspartei in Lower Saxony, but the party was banned in 1952 as a neo-Nazi political organization. Remer then settled in Egypt where he began his close friendship with the Grand Mufti and also became security adviser to Gamal Abdel Nasser.

    Remer, along with his associate Alois Bunning (who was Eichmann`s assistant in the SS), operated his gunrunning company, the Orient Trading Company, out of Damascus for many years. In the 1980`s, when the statute of limitations expired for the crimes he was alleged to have committed, Remer retired and returned to Germany where he became a close adviser to Michael Kuehnen, the most important neo-Nazi leader of the postwar period in Germany.

    It should be pointed out that National Socialism had a profound impact on the political philosophies of many radical Islamic political organization, particularly the Muslim Brotherhood (founded in Egypt in 192, Nasser`s Young Egypt movement, the Social Nationalist Party of Syria founded by Anton Sa`ada, and the Ba`ath Party of Iraq. One of the main leaders of the 1941 pro-Nazi coup in Iraq was Khairallah Tulfah, the uncle and guardian of Saddam Hussein. When Saddam failed in his attempt to assassinate the Iraqi leader Abdel Karim Qassim in 1959, he fled to Egypt where he was given protection by Grand Mufti- protégé Nasser and ODESSA-connected former Nazis. The rest, as they say, is history.

    The Third Position

    The rise of Al Qaeda and the explosion of neo-Nazi activity in Germany and elsewhere coincided with the breakup of the USSR in the early 1990`s and the political vacuum created by the absence of the former Soviet behemoth. Neo-Nazis in both Europe and the United States began making overtures to Islamic terrorists and even to Louis Farrakhan`s Nation of Islam movement. The resulting admixture of Nazi and Islamicist ideologies is something that is termed the ``Third Position.``

    Simply put, adherents of the ``Third Position`` oppose both communism and capitalism, the latter category subsuming Israel, the United States and all other democratic countries which are believed to be under the control of ``International Jewry.`` To this end, the socialist portion of Nazi beliefs is emphasized (as opposed to Hitler`s reliance on corporatism), but the core belief in anti- Semitism is left unaltered. Like the original Nazis, the Third Positioners are eager to form alliances with Muslim (and black) extremists who share their anti-Semitic beliefs.

    In Germany, the neo-Nazi leader Gottfried Kuessel has maintained close ties to Farrakhan`s Black Muslims, and Karl-Heinz Hoffmann, thought to have been involved in the murder of Jewish publisher Shlomo Levin as well as the Oktoberfest bombing of September 26, 1980, in which 13 persons were killed and over 200 injured, has long maintained ties with Arafat`s PLO and even moved his paramilitary training camp to Lebanon in 1980 with PLO assistance.

    In France, the neo-Nazi leader Robert Faurisson maintains close ties with Ahmed Rami, the former broadcaster of the now- defunct Radio Islam, a viciously anti-Semitic station that operated out of Stockholm for a number of years. And for some time, Sweden`s neo-Nazis have provided skinheads for use as Rami`s bodyguards.

    Much of the coordination of neo- Nazi/Muslim terrorist activities is done in the United States. Since overt Nazi activity is outlawed in Germany and many other European countries, neo-Nazis and Islamic extremists have taken advantage of America`s First Amendment protection of almost all political activity. In fact, the headquarters today of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterrpartei is in Lincoln, Nebraska. The Internet and electronic banking make communication and the transfer of funds instantaneous. Even when the transfer of funds needs to be done in person, American law permits every individual to enter or leave the country with $10,000 in cash or negotiable securities without reporting it.

    The First Gulf War in 1991 was a catalyzing event in the development of neo- Nazi and Islamic terrorist relations. Early in 1991, the German neo-Nazi leader Michael Kuehnen contacted the Iraqi Embassy in Bonn and offered to train and equip a squadron of neo-Nazi mercenaries to assist Saddam in the coming war against the alliance led by the United States. Indeed, when Kuehnen was arrested for the last time by German police in April of 1991 (Kuehnen died shortly afterwards of AIDS), included among the documents found in his apartment was a copy of a draft treaty between the ``Anti-Zionist League`` and the ``Government of Iraq.``

    Another German neo-Nazi leader, Heinz Reisz, appearing live on Hessian state television on January 25, 1991, gained a great deal of notoriety by proclaiming, ``Long live the fight for Saddam Hussein, long live his people, long live their leader, God save the Arab people.``

    Although upwards of as many as 500 neo- Nazi mercenaries, formed into a so-called Freedom Corps, were sent to Iraq in 1991, their military effect was negligible at best. Eyewitness accounts say that most of the mercenaries did little other than parade around Baghdad in SS uniforms. The members of the ``Freedom Corps`` fled Iraq after the first night of Alliance bombing. Regardless of the ignominious military performance of the neo- Nazis in Iraq in 1991, this was an important event because it led to greater ties and cooperation among American right-wing extremists, European neo-Nazis and Islamic terrorists. "

  9. #34
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?

    First point: most of the press in Israel is not always objective about any of these issues to say the least. Further, many of the press stories are propaganda or extremist views often supported by outright lies and biased interpretations. I can understand that, considering the political climate there. On occasion I have found a reasoned argument in their press on the more liberal side of the spectrum. I have not studied this particular article, and it would take me days to wade thru it. However....

    Remember when the middle eastern countries wanted to arm themselves in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, they were able to turn to USSR and to an extent France and even Germany. Now those are the politicians, not extremist enclaves. I doubt those countries would provide much help if they felt there were extensive Nazi support.

    Second point is that Jewish financial and propaganda interests have found a profitable ally in Fundamentalist Christian groups in this country. Witness informercials like "On the Wings of Eagles" etc. However, discussing this point further is out of context for the title of the discussion.
    Last edited by threlayer; 01-13-2005 at 08:38 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

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