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  1. #51
    Member Daddyforhire's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Um, the estimations of the death toll for the Inquisition are between 600,000 and as high as 9,000,000
    Actually there are about 5000 or less documented deaths in the 350 years or so the inquisition spans. Some other estimates:

    Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834)
    • Cited in Will Durant, The Reformation (1957):
      • Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, estimated that 31,912 were executed, 1480-1808.
      • In contrast to the high estimate cited above, Durant tosses his support to the following low estimates:
        • Hernando de Pulgar, secretary to Queen Isabella, estimated 2,000 burned before 1490.
        • An unnamed "Catholic historian" estimated 2,000 burned, 1480-1504, and 2,000 burned, 1504-1758.
    • PGtH: 8,800 deaths by burning, 1478-1496
    • Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (1910): 8,800 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada. (acc2 Buckle and Friedländer)
    • Motley, Rise of the Dutch Republic: 10,220 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada
    • Britannica: 2,000
    • Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 35,534 burned.
    • Fox's Book of Martyrs, Ch.IV: 32,000 burned
    • Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 32,000 k. by burning; 20,226 k. before 1540
    • Wertham: 250,000
    • Rummel: 350,000 deaths overall.
    • MEDIAN: 8,800 under Torq.; 32,000 all told.
    • Punished by all means, not death.

      • Fox: 309,000
      • P. Johnson: 341,000
      • Motley: 114,401

  2. #52
    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    First, a little background information...

    "The goal of the Inquisition was not the destruction of the heretics but rather their repentance. Burning at the stake was not common. The ordinary penalties were penance, fines and imprisonment. Penalties were often carried out by the local government, especially the death penalty. Because the fines extracted and the property of the accused was turned over to the local government which often returned a portion to the Church, graft, bribery and blackmail were common....

    Unlike the Medieval Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition was established in 1478 by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, with only the reluctant approval of Pope Sixtus IV. The Roman Church's only hold over the Spanish Inquisition was the appointment of the inquisitor general, the first of which was Toms de Torquemada.

    The purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to discover and punish converted Jews (and later Muslims) who were insincere. However, all Spaniards began to fear its prying eyes. The death penalty was used more often than in the Roman Inquisition, and rules that condemned one for heresy were far stricter, often outlawing things the Roman Church approved.

    For centuries, the Jewish community in Spain had flourished and grown in numbers and influence, though anti-Semitism had from time to time made itself felt and pressure to convert was brought to bear on the Jews. Nominal converts from Judaism were called Marranos (Jews who had been baptized under duress, but were believed to be still surreptitiously practicing Judaism). After... the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella (1469), the Marranos were denounced as a danger to the existence of Christian Spain." Suspected Marranos were tortured until they confessed to practicing Judaism, and then were burned to death en masse at an auto-da-fe.

    After some fourteen years of torture and death by burning, in 1492, by edict, the Spanish Jews were given the choice of exile or baptism. Almost all Jews chose to leave at this time."

    From another source:

    Once accused, a defendant was provided the services of a lawyer, and he could not be examined by the officers of the court without the presence of two disinterested priests. The identity of the witnesses of his alleged crime, however, was not revealed to him, and so he could not confront them. This was a severe disadvantage, even though harsh punishment was meted out to those revealed to have been false accusers. Judges, not juries, decided questions of fact as well as of law, and in effect the Spanish Inquisition combined the functions of investigation, prosecution, and judgment. Indeed, anyone arrested by the Inquisition was presumed guilty until proven innocent, a circumstance very unsettling to us who have enjoyed the blessings of the English common law tradition.
    Last edited by Djoser; 11-17-2004 at 08:44 PM.
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  3. #53
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daddyforhire
    The often cited Inquisition is nothing compared to the atrocities committed by godless dogs like Mao Zedong and Stalin.
    Try again. The VAST majority of despots, murderers, and madmen who managed to gain power over Human history... have been theists. After all, Atheism has been a CRIME in most cultures since the dawn of time (Socrates was sentanced to death for it).

    Hitler invoked the name of Christ very often in his speeches, for an example. Someone's religious conviction, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with the other parts of them, despite what so many say. DFH you name a whole 2 Atheists that grabbed power and massacred people (BTW, you forgot Pol Pot), and the scales are supposed to tip? How?

    Was Atilla the Hun an Atheist? Was Bloody Mary?

    Apologists amuse me.

  4. #54
    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    "As the reconquista proceeded, therefore, and especially after Granada and the last remnant of Spanish Islam fell to the armies of Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492, policy-makers had to decide how to treat the Moors and the relatively small but influential Jewish community which, in marked contrast to what our century has witnessed, had flourished within a larger Islamic society. The Christian victors, fearful of Muslim sympathizers in their midst, offered no compromise: Moors and Jews had to accept baptism or face expulsion from the country now defined as entirely Catholic.

    What this decision amounted to, of course, was a policy of forced conversion, something quite incompatible with traditional Catholic teaching."


    That should be enough information to support my point, which was that "The Inquisition was far worse than what we are seeing today in the Islamic world."

    The Spanish Inquisition cannot be compared with 9/11, which, by the way, was never my intention. One was an act of terrorism and destruction, utilizing mechanical means entirely unavailable and impossible to duplicate in the 16th century. The other was a concerted and prolonged reign of terror which made life miserable or impossible for anyone in the entire country who wished to exercise any sort of religious freedom whatsoever.

    The extremely large populations of Moors and Jews were forced to submit, leave the country, or be executed. Legal rights were non-existent.

    Though certain nations within "the Islamic world" have practiced brutality and repression on a scale approaching this--and even exceeded the total death count, thanks to modern technology and means of deliverance of lethality--the conditions to be found in the entire area of the world dominated by the Islamic religon are vastly superior to those the people of Spain had to deal with.

    Preposterous, my ass...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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  5. #55
    God/dess SonicBones's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    "Religion" By Public Image Limited

    Stained glass windows keep the cold outside
    While the hypocrites hide inside
    With the lies of statues in their minds
    Where the Christian religion made them blind
    Where they hide
    And prey to the God of a bitch spelled backwards is dog
    Not for one race, one creed, one world
    But for money
    Effective
    Absurd

    Do you pray to the Holy Ghost when you suck your host
    Do you read who’s dead in the Irish Post
    Do you give away the cash you can’t afford
    On bended knees and pray to lord
    Fat pig priest
    Sanctimonious smiles
    He takes the money
    You take the lies
    This is religion and Jesus Christ
    This is religion cheaply priced
    This is bibles full of libel
    This is sin in eternal hymn
    This is what they’ve done
    This is your religion
    The apostles were eleven
    Now there’s a sod in Heaven

    This is religion
    There’s a liar on the altar
    The sermon never falter
    This is religion
    Your religion

  6. #56
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Oh, good, the evolution from tolerance to resentment to hatred and opposition can go both ways. The troubles of the world can be traced to a belief in a supreme being, or beings. How can we get rid of Christian conservatives.

    The bark of opponents and proponents sound the same to me - they're just different dogs.

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    Banned Madcap's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    The troubles of the world can be traced to a belief in a supreme being, or beings.
    Not really, but it does make for a great excuse for people to do what they wanted to do anyway. The troubles in the world can be placed in one spot, on people.

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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    god is love.

  9. #59
    God/dess SonicBones's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    god is love.
    Who's God? My God? Your God? The people who kill in the name of their god as demonstrated on September 11? See it's not so simple when everyone is praying to a different god and reading their own meanings into their god's teachings. I think we all agree the concept of religion is a nice concept it's just not feasable in this world.

  10. #60
    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Religon is fine, though it is generally in effect a crutch, more than any real form of spiritual awareness.

    If we all pray hard enough, Timmy's team will win the big game saturday. Who cares about the magical spark of Life, or the magnificence of the Universe--we just need God to help us get that raise, or maybe win that war against those filthy scum that don't believe in Him.

    The problem comes into play when people--as they just can't seem to resist doing--begin to feel that their way is better, and gets worse when their Way is the only way, and worst, when anyone who disagrees must be burnt at the stake, or have their head cut off.

    If we could all just agree that religon belongs at home, in the heart, and not in schools, speeches, laws, or foreign relations, then there would be no problem. Unfortunately history has proved that, thus far, this is nearly impossible.

    Jesus Christ would be appalled at the butchery and brutality that has transpired in his name. But it's not his fault, rather that of those who initially spread the word. Christianity quickly became a militant religon which aspired to make all others obsolete, which is the main reason the Romans persecuted Christians while embracing myriad other forms of worship.

    That is not to say that Christianity is inherently evil or wrong. If those who believed would just chill the fuck out and quit trying to convert all of the rest of us, or worse yet, force us to shape our behavior according to their notions of what God will accept, we wouldn't be having a problem, here...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
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  11. #61
    Veteran Member Topaz's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    all of this hate against God and those with faith in Him...why?...God doesn't hate...or kill...people do...people do...people do...there's a lot to be said about people who kill in the 'name of God'...what kind of bullshit is that...

    religion is man made...and keeps people in bondage to man made rules...i'm christian...and i'm not religious...the two are not synonomous...at least for me they're not...

    is everyone here going to hate me too...because i'm christian...just wanted to know...

    bye...
    Why do some people still have to fight...to get the same opportunities...that are given to others??...

    Look out for self...because noone else will...AND
    The greatest revenge in the world...is success...

    Reclusivness...is a good thing.

  12. #62
    Member Daddyforhire's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Though certain nations within "the Islamic world" have practiced brutality and repression on a scale approaching this--and even exceeded the total death count, thanks to modern technology and means of deliverance of lethality--the conditions to be found in the entire area of the world dominated by the Islamic religon are vastly superior to those the people of Spain had to deal with.

    Thanks for the laugh. Never mind the fact that far more people are murdered and tortured, as long as they are being beheaded and bleed out instead of going on the rack everything is peachy eh? You had almost a passible arguement going until you threw that one out. Speaking as someone who has been to the middle east and who has had three close relatives employed over there for years in the 80's & 90's, I suggest you read up on conditions in post-Shah fundamentalist Iran, Taliban controlled Afghanistan, the Iraq-Iran war, and Wahabbi sector Saudi Arabia before making such a sweeping statement. A book from a credible author as opposed to internet snippets would do you a much better favor.

  13. #63
    Member Daddyforhire's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Try again. The VAST majority of despots, murderers, and madmen who managed to gain power over Human history... have been theists. After all, Atheism has been a CRIME in most cultures since the dawn of time (Socrates was sentanced to death for it).
    How about you try again by rereading my statement. I specifically compared the inquisition to the acts of Zedong and Stalin. You tried to carry it over into warfare as a whole, which totally takes it out of context of my rebuttal to a previous statement.

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Well, I have to say...with all of the reading I've done about the Koran (Qu'ran) I've not found anything that justifies killing "non-believers". Now...keep in mind...this book has been re-written, etc since it's beginning. Just like our beloved (snicker) Catholic church has re-written, revised, edited, etc the Holy (huge) Bible...it is safe to say that the bible we see these days are NOT the same as the original bible. And, even THEN...the bible wasn't written while Jesus was standing on a rock preaching. Everything was taught by word of mouth. It wasn't until YEARS and YEARS later that the bible was written. Can anyone tell me that what they heard, they've ALWAYS repeated verbatim?

    It's not possible.

    Now...I'm jumping out of this debate...I'm not interested in arguing or disagreeing or whatever anymore. My research says that the Koran teaches tolerance and love. It's the interpretation of such things that teach everything that goes against that religion...just as it is with Catholicism.
    Last edited by VenusGoddess; 11-18-2004 at 01:51 PM.

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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    Well, I have to say...with all of the reading I've done about the Koran (Qu'ran) I've not found anything that justifies killing "non-believers". Now...keep in mind...this book has been re-written, etc since it's beginning. Just like our beloved (snicker) Catholic church has re-written, revised, edited, etc the Holy (huge) Bible...
    I posted the verse Venus,even the surah number to make it easy to review for everyone who cared to join in the convo????

    Great responses from everyone who responded.

  16. #66
    mermaidnz
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    topaz,

    sure its the PEOPLE that kill. but its the religion that motivating them.

    THATS whats bullshit.

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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    Now...keep in mind...this book has been re-written, etc since it's beginning.
    My research says that the Koran teaches tolerance and love. It's the interpretation of such things that teach everything that goes against that religion...just as it is with Catholicism.
    My understanding is that the Arabic version of the Koran has never been rewritten. I understand from the stories/legends that the Prophet had people helping him write it down as it was revealed to him over several years. It was originally written in Arabic in an era when the classical Arabic language was just being spread. That is the Arabic version that stands today, so I am told by all the Muslims I used to know.

    The Koran has many translations, over 12 in English alone, and these all have different shades of meaning because of the nature of the Arabic language.

    The Koran, like the Bible, has been widely interpreted to take on the meaning intended by the reader. Those interpretations are not translations; they are personal meanings for whomever had the motivation to do so.

    I myself believe both the Koran and the Bible were written by men (or women) in their interpretation of some "divine revelations." I have no idea whre these "divine revelations" came from other than from within themselves. Further many rewritings/translations have been made. For the Muslims they believe that only the original classical Arabic Koran version has authority. Further, like all works intended to be interpreted, grasping any "true meaning" is very elusive and thus controversial.
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    God/dess SonicBones's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    topaz,

    sure its the PEOPLE that kill. but its the religion that motivating them.

    THATS whats bullshit.
    Yeah I thought that was the whole point of this discussion.The concept of religions.How people interpret their religion's meanings.As Venus pointed out the Koran was not meant too be a hate manifesto.But follower's with different intelligence levels can twist it's meanings too justify their hate or actions in any aspect of their lives.It just seems too me more so than not people use religion as an excuse too be evil, or too help save their sorry asses in hope of redemtion.People should be kind and "Do Unto Others" simply because it's the humane thing too do. Not because they feel they'll be rewarded in any way.Although I'm a firm beleiver in Kharma. But then we come back to the theory. "Two wrongs don't make a right"...
    Last edited by SonicBones; 11-18-2004 at 02:04 PM.

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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Being that I do not have a Qu'ran (Koran) in front of me (still waiting for it to be delivered)...I cannot read what you are speaking of. I will as soon as I get the Qu'ran. However...I must say that there are times when the "words" around such things must be analyzed as well...most things mean one thing if taken by itself...but when you start analyzing the surrounding text/meanings, without changing the words of anything, the original phrase takes on a whole new meaning...

    Anywho...I won't know for absolute sure until I get my copy of the Qu'ran...I may go take it and talk to one of my Muslim neighbors...

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    I posted the verse Venus,even the surah number to make it easy to review for everyone who cared to join in the convo????

    Great responses from everyone who responded.

  20. #70
    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer
    The Koran has many translations, over 12 in English alone, and these all have different shades of meaning because of the nature of the Arabic language.

    The Koran, like the Bible, has been widely interpreted to take on the meaning intended by the reader. Those interpretations are not translations; they are personal meanings for whomever had the motivation to do so.
    This is what I meant when I said "re-written"...I should have said "translated"...sorry, had a brain fart.

    I myself believe both the Koran and the Bible were written by men (or women) in their interpretation of some "divine revelations." I have no idea whre these "divine revelations" came from other than from within themselves. Further many rewritings/translations have been made. For the Muslims they believe that only the original classical Arabic Koran version has authority. Further, like all works intended to be interpreted, grasping any "true meaning" is very elusive and thus controversial.
    Exactly...well said.

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    God/dess SonicBones's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!


    most things mean one thing if taken by itself...but when you start analyzing the surrounding text/meanings,
    Well of course,people always see and hear what they want too hear.This is demonstrated in advertising for movies regularly.
    Example:
    An original movie review:
    Roger Ebert says "Certainly not one of the best movies of the year,a waste of time and money".

    Taken out of context: "Roger Ebert says "One of the best movies of the year". This is done all the time in interpretations of the Bible ,Koran etc
    Last edited by SonicBones; 11-18-2004 at 02:34 PM.

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    Featured Member devilkitty's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    fuck religon where is the weed.....ahh now that is nice (me hitting bong)
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daddyforhire
    How about you try again by rereading my statement. I specifically compared the inquisition to the acts of Zedong and Stalin. You tried to carry it over into warfare as a whole, which totally takes it out of context of my rebuttal to a previous statement.
    And my statement stands. Facts are facts.

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daddyforhire
    Thanks for the laugh...I suggest you read up on conditions in post-Shah fundamentalist Iran, Taliban controlled Afghanistan, the Iraq-Iran war, and Wahabbi sector Saudi Arabia before making such a sweeping statement. A book from a credible author as opposed to internet snippets would do you a much better favor.
    Thanks for totally misunderstanding the comparison I was making--again...

    I suggest (again) you read my original statement: "The Inquisition was far worse than what we are seeing today in the Islamic world."

    And perhaps my attempt to explain to you what I meant by "the Islamic world", namely "the entire area of the world dominated by the Islamic religon", as in...

    "...the conditions to be found in the entire area of the world dominated by the Islamic religon are vastly superior to those the people of Spain had to deal with."


    I did not refer specifically to Iraq. I did not refer to Iran. I did not refer to Wahabbi sector Saudi Arabia, or Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

    I was referring to those nations whose populations are at least 50% Moslem, which would be the State of Bahrain, Al Mamlakah Al Maghribiyah, Republic of Tunisia, Türkiye Cümhuriyeti, Republic of Albania, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, Republic of the Sudan, Republic of Yemen, Syrian Arab Republic, Republic of Iraq, Arab Republic of Egypt, Palestinian National Authority, Federal Islamic Republic of the Comoros, Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Turkmenistan, Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, Federal Republic of Nigeria, United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, Republic of Uzbekistan, Republic of Niger, Republic of Singapore, Islamic Republic of Iran, Sultanate of Oman, Republic of Maldives, Republic of Somaliland, State of Kuwait, Republic of Indonesia, Lebanese Republic, State of Qatar, Federation of Malaysia, Democratic and Popular Republic of Algeria, Somali Republic, Brunei Darussalam, People's Republic of Bangladesh, Republic of Djibouti, Islamic Republic of Mauritania, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Azerbaijan, Republic of Burkina, State of Eritrea, Ethiopia, Republic of the Gambia Republic of Ghana, Republic of Guinea, Republic of Guinea-Bissau, Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, Republic of Cameroon, Kyrgyz Republic, Republic of Liberia, Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Mali, Republic of Mauritius, Republic of Senegal, Republic of Sierra Leone, Republic of Tajikistan, United Republic of Tanzania, Republic of Chad, and the Democratic Arab Republic Sahara.

    "The Islamic world", get it?

    Last I heard, all the residents of this entire region were not being forcibly converted, without legal rights, under threat of torture, death, or banishment. This is what happened during the Spanish Inquisition.

    When you tell me I need to read "a book from a credible author", do you maybe mean one who doesn't judge an entire religious system by 4 countries, or parts thereof, it is practiced in?

    If you took a trip to the Middle East, and your Uncle Fred didn't like it either, I'm sorry to hear that--but this quite obviously does not make you an expert on the Islamic religon or its history.
    Last edited by Djoser; 11-18-2004 at 09:36 PM.
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  25. #75
    God/dess Gynger's Avatar
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    Default Re: i fucking hate religions!!

    I am agnostic- I believe in a creator and I DESPISE organized religion of any kind and have many reasons.

    I have been treated better by people who have no religious affliation or are atheists than I have by those who "read the good book"

    I was raised Catholic and in church more than I was in school. I don't believe anyone has the right to tell you what is wrong, what you are "suppose" to do, or what you are "suppose" to believe. I believe in morals, guidance and self worth and I believe in laws. I however, do not believe in organized hypocrites who have nothing to do but point fingers and be judgmental of others.


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