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Thread: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

  1. #26
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    All nations of any consequence seek to become hegemonic,...
    American hegemony is supported by every administration that takes office,
    That first line could be a circular definition if you don't consider nonhegemonic nations to be consequential.

    But anyway, the ubiquity of hegemony seeking nations and US policy does not necessarily contradict Tigerlilly's claim that it is "evil". One could make an excellent case that it is the main reason that the history of nations has been so blood soaked, neh?

    -Ww
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    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  2. #27
    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    That first line could be a circular definition if you don't consider nonhegemonic nations to be consequential.
    I don't consider nations that cannot become hegemons to be geopolitically significant; that's a reality reflected in the international pecking order. There are great powers and there are other nations. Nothing circular about that.

    One could make an excellent case that it is the main reason that the history of nations has been so blood soaked, neh?
    And? Your point?

    There are two kinds of people in this world; those who see the world as it is, and those who see the world as it should be. Nations always seek to further their own national interests above other nations when they can. This is normal.

    The history of mankind is the history of conflict. This is just how it is. You can wish it otherwise, but you know what they say about wishes and hands...

    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

  3. #28
    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Re "hegemony" being "evil," perhaps..... but who would you rather have the influence ("control"), us or others? Either lower your standard of living or get used to the idea that we're going to be using the military to maintain access to natural resources around the globe and control over those we've identified as behaving contrary to our interests for the foreseeable future. It has nothing to do with morality - it's just the way it is.
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Either lower your standard of living or get used to the idea
    Well, I'm choosing door number 3- move to a country that isn't trying to take over the world

  5. #30
    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    ^ You really mean to say, "I'm moving to a country that is more dependent on American hegemony for economic and geopolitical security than any other..."

    Have a good move; I'm moving this month myself, and I never forget how much I hate moving.

    Moving blows.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

  6. #31
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    All nations of any consequence seek to become hegemonic
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    I don't consider nations that cannot become hegemons to be geopolitically significant

    Nothing circular about that.
    If you consider "consequential" to mean essentially the same thing as "significant", then I am afraid these two statements are indeed preceisely circular, which is not to say wrong, but they are just a matter of semantics.

    And? Your point?
    There are two kinds of people in this world; those who see the world as it is, and those who see the world as it should be. Nations always seek to further their own national interests above other nations when they can. This is normal.
    The history of mankind is the history of conflict. This is just how it is. You can wish it otherwise, but you know what they say about wishes and hands...
    I basically agree, but I would put it this way: There are two kinds of people in the world, those who cause it to gradually become a better place, more civilized and just, and those who slow this process down.

    I am being a bit flip here, and I do take your point to a considerable degree, but over the long haul (centuries), there can be little doubt that the world has "improved" by the standards of what might be called liberty and secular human rights, etc. There was a time when many would have made arguments just like those you make above with respect to, say, the principles in the Bill of Rights or the abolition of slavery or indeed even to the idea of the "rule of law".

    In other words, if it were not for those who "wish it otherwise", the world would have little hope for progress indeed.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  7. #32
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    Thank you Wwander
    You're welcome, and I keep meaning to thank you for the great Ghandi quote in your signature file; I had never seen it before...now one of my faves.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    heheheheheheheheheheh
    10 points!!!!!

    I think we should invade Canada!!!
    Squeeze it like a zit between cali,NY,and alaska!!!
    We can call it Alaskanada,our newest state.
    I guess that was a joke of sorts but why would you want to invade Canada ? What did they ever do that would deserve invasion? Or is it just because I am moving there

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    You're welcome, and I keep meaning to thank you for the great Ghandi quote in your signature file; I had never seen it before...now one of my faves.

    -Ww
    Glad you like it I am a fan of good quotes and Ghandi has many.

  9. #34
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    I think we should invade Canada!!!
    We can call it Alaskanada,our newest state.
    Excellent idea! With a population of somewhat over 30 million that would be solidly Democratic (especially after the invasion), that would add one very substantial "blue state" to each US election and ought to protect us from the Republicans winning any close presidential races for at least a century.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  10. #35
    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    ^ Except for the Western provinces.

    They're very sympathetic to the US because they're so disenfranchised by the Ontario-Quebec governing bloc that has a perennial lock on power. Hell, there are places in Western Canada that speak of secession.

    Canada isn't one big happy family, not that any nation really is.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

  11. #36
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Except for the Western provinces..
    Right, if each province became a state, it'd be a different story, but BGMM wanted one big state that would be totally dominated by the "Ontario-Quebec governing block" where nearly all the population resides. Most of the western provinces are amazingly empty; the Yukon (which may be a territory...I forget) is twice the size of California but has a total population of only 30,000...about 2/3s of whom live in a single town!!

    Not that any of this is remotely serious of course.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  12. #37
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    a conservative- which means a good reason isn't required to attack a country and kill innocents in the process
    From last century to this, the Presidents who were there for notable conflagrations:

    McKinley. Republican. Spanish-American War.
    Theodore Roosevelt. Republican. Nobel Peace Prize for helping to end the Russo-Japanese War.
    Woodrow Wilson. Democrat. World War I.
    Franklin Roosevelt. Democrat. World War II.
    Harry Truman. Democrat. Korea.
    John Kennedy. Democrat. Vietnam.
    Ronald Reagan. Republican. Granada.
    George Bush I. Republican. Gulf War I.
    William Clinton. Democrat. Balkans.
    George Bush II. Republican. Gulf War II.

    I don't see either party, or conservatives or liberals, having a lock on warmaking.

    While I am the last person to want to defend BigGreen on this forum, his "Blame Canada" (thank you, South Park) little tirade was in response to Canada being the beneficiary of the U.S.'s military and economic presence. Your name wasn't in that mix at all, Tiger.

  13. #38
    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    From last century to this, the Presidents who were there for notable conflagrations:

    McKinley. Republican. Spanish-American War.
    Theodore Roosevelt. Republican. Nobel Peace Prize for helping to end the Russo-Japanese War.
    Woodrow Wilson. Democrat. World War I.
    Franklin Roosevelt. Democrat. World War II.
    Harry Truman. Democrat. Korea.
    John Kennedy. Democrat. Vietnam.
    Ronald Reagan. Republican. Granada.
    George Bush I. Republican. Gulf War I.
    William Clinton. Democrat. Balkans.
    George Bush II. Republican. Gulf War II.

    I don't see either party, or conservatives or liberals, having a lock on warmaking.
    And that becomes even more apparent when the "undeclared," "off-the-books," and "black-ops" wars are added to the list. The differences you see between the parties re foreign policy and use of the military are largely superficial - the "core" foreign policies of the country and the circumstances under which the military will or will not be used are determined on a long-term basis (i.e., 20-30 year spans), are adopted on the basis of considerable study and input from the leadership on both sides, and are followed by Presidents regardless of party affiliation.
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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    And that becomes even more apparent when the "undeclared," "off-the-books," and "black-ops" wars are added to the list. The differences you see between the parties re foreign policy and use of the military are largely superficial - the "core" foreign policies of the country and the circumstances under which the military will or will not be used are determined on a long-term basis (i.e., 20-30 year spans), are adopted on the basis of considerable study and input from the leadership on both sides, and are followed by Presidents regardless of party affiliation.
    Exactly.

    American foreign policy hasn't substantively changed in 65 years.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    American foreign policy hasn't substantively changed in 65 years.
    I agree that the foreign policies and military policies of both parties are essentially the same, and even in the recent election Kerry did not propose to do anything substantially different from what Bush is doing...most of the time anyway (sometimes it was hard to tell what he wanted to do); however, imo, the current war in Iraq is a considerable departure from past policy. This is the first time ever there has been a straight-up invasion (as opposed to covert actions) of a foreign country with a recognized government which the US initiated (i.e., we did not join ongoing hostilities) for pre-emptive purposes (i.e., to prevent something that might happen in the future rather than to address something that had actually happened) outside the Western Hemisphere (covered by the Monroe Doctrine). It is a major precedent, imo. That is not to say that it would not have been done by a Dem administration too, but it is still a big change in the use of our military.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  16. #41
    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    I agree that the foreign policies and military policies of both parties are essentially the same, and even in the recent election Kerry did not propose to do anything substantially different from what Bush is doing...most of the time anyway (sometimes it was hard to tell what he wanted to do); however, imo, the current war in Iraq is a considerable departure from past policy. This is the first time ever there has been a straight-up invasion (as opposed to covert actions) of a foreign country with a recognized government which the US initiated (i.e., we did not join ongoing hostilities) for pre-emptive purposes (i.e., to prevent something that might happen in the future rather than to address something that had actually happened) outside the Western Hemisphere (covered by the Monroe Doctrine). It is a major precedent, imo. That is not to say that it would not have been done by a Dem administration too, but it is still a big change in the use of our military.

    -Ww
    Yes, and no... it's the first time the pretext for our initiating hostilities has been so weak as to not even afford us the cover of plausible deniability, but it's hardly the first time we've employed the military in large scale operations for pre-emptive purposes - heretofore, we just weren't quite so transparent about it when we did so.

    As for being done by Dems anyway, you're correct - the groundwork for what we're doing in the Mid-East was laid during the Reagan years and, to be honest, Bush "jumped the gun" with Iraq. Had he done things the way he was supposed to, you'd have been fooled again re "preemptive" purposes, much of the rest of the world would have joined us, and this war would not have been nearly so divisive domestically. Realistically, we should have continued working on the "set up" for the war for another 2-4 years and then gone in.
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
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    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    GnBeret and Wwander- thanks for the above posts and many others as well- I find them very informative and interesting Both of you are great additions to the site !

  18. #43
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    I agree, it is great to see Wwanderer and GnBeret here with their insight.

    This is a very interesting thread, one of the best going in PP for a while now.

    I do think that for us to ignore the importance of oil as a prime motivation for this war is to make a very big mistake. It is not being fought to keep oil cheap, but to keep it under the control of the military/industrial complex. So long as the economy isn't ruined, inflated oil prices won't hurt the oil companies--they will simply pass on the greater cost to the consumers, as they have always done.

    There are other factors, true, but if there were no oil in Iraq and the region immediately surrounding it, the power politics of the area would be vastly different, and of much less import to the USA. Israel would still be a major concern, of course, with the serious financial and political ties we have in place there.

    These other bush wars (as opposed to Bush wars) mentioned have been relatively minor and temporary, as far as the depth and permanancy of US involvement is concerned. Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and the areas in which we have conducted covert operations have been nothing compared to the Iraq War; our own military--and the entire world--knows it.

    It is true that Afghanistan has no oil, and we have been heavily involved in military action there, but since they actually were harboring terrorists responsible for 9/11, invasion and continued occupation have been fully justified. Actually, if there weren't any oil in Iraq or in the region immediately surrounding it, we might well have dedicated ourselves to finishing the goddamned job in Afghanistan, instead of treating it as a clearly secondary military problem.

    I actually do like the idea of letting the inherent weaknesses of the more troublesome Muslim nations take them out for us without our having to get involved, as Melonie has suggested might be possible. But given our unreserved support for Israel, and the Bushes' aggressive military actions, these problem nations will have a much easier time keeping their populations in thrall, and in an antagonistic state towards the USA. Having a nice convenient enemy is very useful for despots, and the macho posturing of GWB is perfectly tailored for use by their propaganda machines.

    As for our staying out of Iran, I do hope it will be the case, but I have little faith in the prudence of our current leadership, who led this nation into Iraq for the wrong reasons, without regard for the long-term consequences.
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    I do think that for us to ignore the importance of oil as a prime motivation for this war is to make a very big mistake. It is not being fought to keep oil cheap, but to keep it under the control of the military/industrial complex. So long as the economy isn't ruined, inflated oil prices won't hurt the oil companies--they will simply pass on the greater cost to the consumers, as they have always done.

    There are other factors, true, but if there were no oil in Iraq and the region immediately surrounding it, the power politics of the area would be vastly different, and of much less import to the USA.
    I couldnt agree more. I also think its very short sighted ( or even ignorant) for people to think that oil has little or nothing to this with this war.

    Its all about control. Here is the US the current admin. and related forces want to control our thinking and over there they want to control the oil. Terrorism is just a smokescreen -- if it were really or only about terrorism we would have invaded other places as well and ALOT sooner.

    The whole "War on Terror" thing is just to pull at peoples emotions and to distract them from the truth of the matter.

  20. #45
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    I agree, it is great to see Wwanderer and GnBeret here with their insight.
    Thanks for the kind words!

    I do think that for us to ignore the importance of oil as a prime motivation for this war is to make a very big mistake. It is not being fought to keep oil cheap, but to keep it under the control of the military/industrial complex. ... There are other factors, true, but if there were no oil in Iraq and the region immediately surrounding it, the power politics of the area would be vastly different, and of much less import to the USA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    Its all about control. Here is the US the current admin. and related forces want to control our thinking and over there they want to control the oil.
    I agree only partially. Clearly oil is a very important component of the world's (and the US's) interest in the ME, but imo, it is only a part of the story and probably not the single most important one.

    The easiest way to see that there is a lot more to the geopolitical significance of the ME than oil is to consider how frequently and consistently it has been on "center stage" in world history in the centuries, and indeed millenia, before any oil was produced in the region or consumed in quantity anywhere. It is no coincidence that most of the world's longest continuously occupied and important major cities are in the ME, and the reason is not the petroleum that lies beneath their streets. The West as been deeply entangled in the region since Alexander the Great led his armies in that direction with the intenet of conquering "the world". (Btw, how can that new Oliver Stone movie, which I have not seen, be as bad as everyone says it is, given that at worst you get to stare at Angelina Jolie wearing skimpy costumes?)

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: US Forces now attacking across Iraq border ...

    Oh yes Ww- I know its not 100% oil but I do think it has ALOT to do with it thats all. I just think its ignorant when some people say oil has nothing at all to do with it.

    And I agree/know there is a long long history of unrest in that part of the world.

    Btw-Has anyone seen "Alexander" yet ? Is it as good as it looks ? I'm looking forward to seeing it and Angelina certianly does have something to do with it ~

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