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Thread: Sustainable Society

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Sustainable Society

    In a USA Today poll, 76% of Americans said they believed in building a sustainable (one that can continue into the future without self destructing) society. This includes economics, environment, ethics, and all other aspects of life.

    Question: Do you believe that we should work to make our society more sustainable? THis means reducing dependence on pollution-causing fuels, reducing rage and violent crime (by looking at our own actions for possible causes) and anything else you can think of

    What are you interested in seeing change, and what are you willing to change yourself to see this come about?

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    76% of Americans said they believed in building a sustainable (one that can continue into the future without self destructing) society.
    Does that mean that 24% of Americans are for having a society that will self destruct in the future? Wow.

    What are you interested in seeing change, and what are you willing to change yourself to see this come about?
    A more challenging question!

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  3. #3
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    They talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk.

    In a world largely driven (literally) by nonrenewable energy sources, sustainability is only highly logical. But those people who say they believe in it - well, we'll have their SUVs and their 4,000-square-foot R-14 houses when we pull their cold dead fingers off.

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    God/dess Lena's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    I'm all about sustainability. I have a composting toilet, and plans are in the works to build an underground house that will rely mostly on solar heating. Eventually I would like to live in a sustainable community or land collective, maybe.



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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    JZ...what steps are you willing to/have you taken

    Lena, that's awesome. BTW, I have info on those design ideas if you're interested.

    For me, sustainability starts by realizing every question, every decision has larger impact. What I do, what I buy, where I buy it, how recyclable/disposable it is, who I help or don't...it's all important. But the decision is not hard - simply thinking about it (does it really benefit my town if all the farms become 2 acre lots?) and acting on it (No, so how can I protect my town and providing for economic growth in selected areas?) gets you 90% of the way there

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Debtor Nation

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Lena
    I'm all about sustainability. I have a composting toilet, and plans are in the works to build an underground house that will rely mostly on solar heating. Eventually I would like to live in a sustainable community or land collective, maybe.
    I am glad to know there are others who are thinking like that too.

    I have been thinking about buying a large plot of land and then making environmentally sensitive homes on it. Things like bermed or underground housing with low visual impact to the area.

    These giant McMansions with four feet of yard are ugly boxes and people are such fools to pay for those things (and personally, I think they are going to be sorry for buying them in two years or so.) People mow down the trees and then mow down the grass. It is so un-natural - but maybe my rural upbringing is showing.

    If the two of us have found each other, there must be other people with the same kind of desires. Maybe there is a market for such a place.

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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Another great post from discretedancer - well done.

    Composting toliet- hmm.... I'll have to look into that - thanks Lena

    I gave up my gas guzzler when I became more aware of things. And we use solar. I am trying to move to a more and more eco friendly way of life.

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    The corporatization of organic farming holds great promise in this regard, since it's popular, growing in market share, and ultimately better ecologically.

    If we ever adhere to GATT and WTO agreements on farm subsides (and the Europeans join in), organic farming could really take off and deliver real profits to farmers, considering the margins for their products currently.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    The corporatization of organic farming holds great promise in this regard, since it's popular, growing in market share, and ultimately better ecologically.

    If we ever adhere to GATT and WTO agreements on farm subsides (and the Europeans join in), organic farming could really take off and deliver real profits to farmers, considering the margins for their products currently.
    Mad Cow is the result of corporate farming taking safety to the edge to reap better profits.

    When people perceive organic farming as safer than the "inexpensive" hormone anti-biotics cannabilism based farming - then it will really take off!

    (Dang - I sound like a tree hugger don't I? Lets talk about guns - Guns Are Your Friends! )

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    God/dess Lena's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Deogal, up until now the people interested in such things have mostly been broke hippies. There are all kinds of intentional communities and land collectives tho. There's a really nice one that makes and sells hammocks and also owns a store, I forget the name, but do a search.

    Discretedancer, I'm pretty sure I already know exactly what I'm doing, but send me what you have anyways.

    Anybody wanna come to a house building party? :-)

    Lena



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    God/dess GoldCoastGirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    http://www.care2.com

    It is a great resource to help live more sustainable. I personally am striving to do my best by making more eco-friendly choices. For instance, I buy recycle-ed toilet paper from a company that also supports sustainability.

    Wish more and more businesses would have a "triple bottle line" instead of the usual "single" bottom line. Then we would see some REAL change....


    enter: E3167322D9 for your 10% discount

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Aww..thanks TL.

    Lena, please PM me what you're planning and if I can dig up some info I will - I'm working on a sustainable farm education project that has me researching virtually every aspect of construction, energy, etc.

    This is awesome to see how many folks care as I do. Care2 is great, but I'm finding their message boards (well, the listserv anyway) is too much "hi, I like you" chatter and not enough substance. Not care2's fault. I'm trying to unify some of the sustainability groups on there and elsewhere to work together - the only way our message will get hold in the public eye. Working on a site at www.practicalenvironmentalism.org - anyone care to write for us?

    The "conservation development" idea for land (lots of houses in a small space, leaving the rest alone) is catching on....check out North American Land Trust or stuff by Randall Arendt (http://www.natlands.org/planning/growgreen.html or he has some great books). In fact, such development might be part of our farm project (land that can't be farmed)...but we're not sure.

    As for organic food, that's the fastest growing sector of the market - dominated by mom-and-pop farms (some operating only 3.5 acres to feed over 200 people and employ an entire family). I like www.pasafarming.org as a resource for that info - you should see their annual conference (and taste the food) - WOW!

    I love how active you guys are with this....and how great the info is...THANKS...please keep it going!

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    God/dess montythegeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    As a poll, this question is crap and should be recycled. The question is loaded and has no value. you might as well ask if people like pets.

    Deogol---Guns are not your friend--bullets are.

    As for composting toilets--get a septic tank--it is the same damn thing logically and is cheaper.

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Ghandi

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  16. #16
    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Monty...your facts are a bit skewed on composting toilets vs septic - septic doesn't produce usable compost, and is typically much larger and more expensive than compost toilet.

    You degraedd rather than answered the question...what do you think should be done for a more sustainable society, and what are you willing to do...or is "my happiness now" as far as your thought process goes?

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    In point of fact, other than vehicle emissions, the vast majority of unregulated / poorly regulated industrial emissions occur in other countries i.e. China,India, Eastern Europe. While in theory every little bit helps, Americans spending twice as much money on an "environmentally conscious" product versus a standard US product really makes no logical sense at all if every Chinese consumer is causing twice as much environmental damage buying standard Chinese products as standard US consumer products do. The same phenomena happens when US consumers buy 3rd world imported products at WalMart etc. Bottom line is that the USA can quickly go broke pursuing "environmentally friendly" products on a large scale, while at the same time the amount of total global pollution is increasing and the pollution being experienced in say California is now travelling there by winds and waves rather than originating there.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Mel - Not sure I agree (haven't researched) that most pollution is from overseas...fairly sure if you don't count the pollution caused by products created to serve the US market.

    What responsibility do you think we have (as US consumers) to force/encourage (through our buying decisions and public pressure) companies operating overseas to be more sustainable?

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    In point of fact, other than vehicle emissions, the vast majority of unregulated / poorly regulated industrial emissions occur in other countries i.e. China,India, Eastern Europe. While in theory every little bit helps, Americans spending twice as much money on an "environmentally conscious" product versus a standard US product really makes no logical sense at all if every Chinese consumer is causing twice as much environmental damage buying standard Chinese products as standard US consumer products do.
    At the moment I think US consumers (should) bear a larger than "fair share" part of the responsibility because:

    1) The US uses a much larger share of almost all important natural resources (from food and water to oil and steel) per person than any other nation. You can easily google up the stats yourself; for example, see http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/energy/stats_ctry/Stat1.html for data on energy use. The US consumes 40% of the world's current oil production with well under 10% of its population. On typical basic resources Americans consume something like 3 to 6 times their "fair share".

    2) We are already a very (the most) developed country in the world and can thus better afford to make the sacrifices than can people in the "developing countries" that are currently still climbing into or through the industrial revolution. In other words, it would slow developing countries down more and reduce their populations to a much lower standard of living to limit environmental polution by a given amount than it would for the US to do the same.

    Nevertheless, there is still a lot of validity to your basic point, imo, at least in the long run. Developing countries are definitely the main drivers in the increase in polution and other environmental impacts, and unless they find some more sustainable way to reach a high standard of living than those in the current First World did, it won't make much difference what we in the US do in the long run.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    I love this dialogue...you guys are awesome!

    Interesting page I found - it discusses sustainability in terms of resource use, and calculates how many people the earth can sustain (not sure if they defined current society as sustainable...I sure don't) at different consumption levels

    http://www.sustainablesettlement.co....resources.html

    SHort version: if the whole world had our standard/style of living, the earth is 4 BILLION people overpopulated. If just US and Europe were at current, and rest of the world lile Mexico, we're dead on (too bad, the rest of the world is stuck)

    The author raises the issue, if we believe all people deserve an equal chance, our society needs to make some changes. Or kill of 2/3 of the population (not an idea I support)

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    God/dess Silverback's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    [QUOTE=Wwanderer]Does that mean that 24% of Americans are for having a society that will self destruct in the future? Wow.

    Actually, that seems kinda low.
    "He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!"

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    Senior Member countrywitch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    If youre interested,theres two books That I highly reccomend, ISHMAEL, and THE STORY OF "B" both are by Daniel Quinn, you'll be glad you read 'em
    ."A long time ago,being crazy meant something...nowdays everybodys crazy"

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    http://www.sustainablesettlement.co....resources.html

    SHort version: if the whole world had our standard/style of living, the earth is 4 BILLION people overpopulated. If just US and Europe were at current, and rest of the world like Mexico, we're dead on (too bad, the rest of the world is stuck)
    An excellent link; thanks! It describes the issues that are sort of implicit in my previous post very clearly.

    The author raises the issue, if we believe all people deserve an equal chance, our society needs to make some changes. Or kill of 2/3 of the population (not an idea I support)
    It would almost certainly be necessary to substantially reduce the world population if we are to have a society that is sustainable over the long term, but that does not necessarily imply killing anyone. Birth rates tend to drop as standards of living improve and to actually become negative for the wealthiest people's on the planet in some cases. The pattern has now been repeated in enough different countries and cultures that there is fair reason to believe that it could be a universal trend. If we are really lucky, as standards of living increase without greatly increasing our environmental impact due to improved technologies and more sensible life style choices, it might be possible for the population to slowly drop (due to low birth rates) to some sustainable level with a developed country standard of living for most or all. I don't think that such a scenario is at all probable, but it is probably not impossible.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  24. #24
    God/dess Lena's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Quote Originally Posted by montythegeek
    As a poll, this question is crap and should be recycled. The question is loaded and has no value. you might as well ask if people like pets.
    Monty! Play nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by montythegeek
    As for composting toilets--get a septic tank--it is the same damn thing logically and is cheaper.
    I'd rather not. Septic tanks don't make nice compost for my garden. Also, flushing a toilet all the time would probably deplete the water in my cistern way too fast (well, it would probably be okay in the summer, but sometimes its a stretch in the winter). Besides, I like my composting toilet. It smells good and it makes me happy.

    Oh, and as for cheaper: my composting toilet is very cheap. I made it myself and I'm sure it didn't cost me more than ten bucks. Sawdust I get from the sawmill down the road (free), so no it's not more expensive than a septic system. For a city boy like you, a composting toilet might even save you money on your water bill!

    Lena



  25. #25
    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable Society

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    SHort version: if the whole world had our standard/style of living, the earth is 4 BILLION people overpopulated. If just US and Europe were at current, and rest of the world lile Mexico, we're dead on (too bad, the rest of the world is stuck)

    The author raises the issue, if we believe all people deserve an equal chance, our society needs to make some changes. Or kill of 2/3 of the population (not an idea I support)
    Aja... and when phrased in those terms and answered in the abstract, I'm sure an overwhelming majority of Americans profess to "believe all people deserve an equal chance." But it's not like we haven't seen this coming for quite some time now, and when push comes to shove, actions speak louder than words.

    To wit: although the Cold War ended in the late 80's, we've continued to systematically overhaul our entire military - 12 complete carrier battle groups, extensively upgraded main battle tanks, new model Apaches, etc., etc., etc. (best example is the new Joint Strike Fighter just coming on-line; the F-15 has NEVER been beat, the F-14's can run circles around anything anybody else has, and both still have a good 20-25 years of life left in them... so what'd we do? Build a new fighter that can take either of them in less than 15 seconds!). Why? Who, or what are we so damned afraid of since the demise of the USSR that we feel like we need to have this kind of ability to project such an enormous amount of power globally?

    Answer: EVERYONE, 'CAUSE WE'RE GOING TO TAKE WHAT WE NEED WHEN WE NEED IT. The wars of the last two centuries have primarily been fought over real estate and ideology... trivial shit, considering what's coming - it's GAME TIME now, 'cause the wars of this century will be fought over the important shit... NATURAL RESOURCES. Short version: there's not enough to go around, so we either "play fair" and drastically lower our standard of living, or we use the military to maintain meaningful access to what we need (and yes, that means "take" when necessary). We came to this realization, and made this decision in the 80's, and we've been systematically preparing for it ever since.

    It's not pretty, it's not moral, and it's not "right" but..., it is what it is.
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
    - Luke
    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
    - Boss, re Luke

    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

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