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Thread: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

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    Default Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    this was sent to me by a friend-

    The TRUE patriot not only questions government corruption, deception, lies, and other malfeasance – but also criticizes and challenges the government on such issues! The phony FALSE "patriot" not only refuses to question his government, much less criticize or challenge it, but he also ridicules or condemns the TRUE patriot who has the courage to speak out against government wrongdoing! The FALSE "patriot" often acts this way because of ignorance. Often it is also his laziness, apathy, and complacency that keep him from taking a little time to investigate government wrongdoing. Sadly, many times it is the FALSE "patriot’s"

    cowardice that causes him to attack the TRUE patriot – because if the FALSE"patriot" would take the time to truly investigate the allegations of government wrongdoing, well then, he might discover it to be true, and then he would be responsible for opposing such (assuming he wanted to act like a good citizen)! ((And it’s so much easier for the FALSE"patriot" to bury his head in the sand and pretend everything’s just fine and "the government can do no wrong"!))

    It’s as American as "apple pie" to criticize the government if such criticism is deserved (and even if it isn’t) – that’s what "free speech" is all about! However, it is UNAMERICAN, cowardly, and UNPATRIOTIC to FAIL to criticize government when such criticism is WARRANTED!
    The truth of the matter is that all of us Americans better do some serious checking into what the federal government is up to in this "perpetual war" against terrorism and those nations that support terrorism, and its Draconian and Orwellian anti-terrorism legislation! It is the American people who will be sending their sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, etc., off to far-away lands to bleed and die in this "perpetual war" that may last 100 years (or more)! It is the American people who will be suffering civilian casualties here at home when the "terrorists" retaliate for U.S. bombing and invasion of various nations and peoples around the world! It is the American people who will be funding this "perpetual war". It will be the American people who will be forced to give up their freedom for a "little security" from "Big Government"!

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    The truth of the matter is that all of us Americans better do some serious checking into what the federal government is up to in this "perpetual war" against terrorism and those nations that support terrorism, and its Draconian and Orwellian anti-terrorism legislation! It is the American people who will be sending their sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, etc., off to far-away lands to bleed and die in this "perpetual war" that may last 100 years (or more)! It is the American people who will be suffering civilian casualties here at home when the "terrorists" retaliate for U.S. bombing and invasion of various nations and peoples around the world! It is the American people who will be funding this "perpetual war". It will be the American people who will be forced to give up their freedom for a "little security" from "Big Government"!
    It was OK (if a little rabid) up until this point.

    Our ill-marketed and poorly-named "War on Terror" is indeed a permanent condition; you can pretend that it's a temporal situation that will go away with a more lovey-dovey, hands-off administration, but that's utter fantasy. Yes, Rove and company made a poor choice in their labelling of our new condition, and that makes people suspicious of motivations, but it doesn't change the fact that we will be combatting terror organizations in a doggedly proactive fashion from here on out--irrespective of the administration in office.

    Considering Europe's seeming inability to acknowledge the wolves at their own door (Denmark, France, Sweden, anyone?), someone has to lead civilized nations in this conflict.

    The first rule of leadership is: when you're the leader, lead.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism


    you can pretend that it's a temporal situation that will go away with a more lovey-dovey, hands-off administration, but that's utter fantasy.
    I am not pretending anything. I sure as hell am not.

    There have been acts of terrorism in for as long as people have been recording the history of mankind. Its nothing new. Something that is fairly new in the US, at least to my generation anyway- is that a Pres. candidate has been using an act of terrorism as a scare tactic to get votes. Bush and co. used all the victims of 9/11 as pawns to scare people into voting for him. He victimized them and their faimlies yet again and did so repeatedly.

    That is one of the things that people needed to look at and question-imo- few did obviously because Bush won the 04 election. Ofcourse the constent be afriad , be very afraid shit was pounded into the heads of most of America with the endless images replayed over and over and over in the media.
    There is a term for that- its called brainwashing. And many weak minded people fell for it hook , line and sinker and voted for one of the most horrible people ever to walk the earth.Its shameful that more people did not understand this simple concept expressed in this famous quote:

    Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth. -

    And ever person out there who voted for Bush needs to think long and hard on this one from Teddy Roosevelt

    Avoid the base hypocrisy of condemning in one man what you pass over in silence when committed by another--because Bush and Saddam are alike in more ways than one..
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 12-03-2004 at 12:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    http://watch.pair.com/default.html

    the rise of the third reich
    In 1933, shortly after Hitler's appointment as Chancellor of Germany, the German Parliament was set on fire by the Nazis and the Communists were blamed for this act of terrorism against the German people. Following the Nazi-inspired arson, Hitler exploited the outrage of the German citizens to arrogate to himself dictatorial powers, which he promised would be used to rid Germany of Communists. The next day, Chancellor Hitler demanded from the German cabinet an emergency decree which would enable him to deal decisively with the domestic crisis. President von Hindenburg signed the decree "for the Protection of the people and the State."
    After viewing the damage, an emergency meeting of government leaders was held. When told of the arrest of the Communist arsonist, Van der Lubbe, Hitler became deliberately enraged.
    "The German people have been soft too long. Every Communist official must be shot. All Communist deputies must be hanged this very night. All friends of the Communists must be locked up. And that goes for the Social Democrats and the Reichsbanner as well!"
    At a cabinet meeting held later in the morning, February 28, Chancellor Hitler demanded an emergency decree to overcome the crisis. He met little resistance from his largely non-Nazi cabinet. That evening, Hitler and Papen went to Hindenburg and the befuddled old man signed the decree "for the Protection of the people and the State."
    The Emergency Decree stated: "Restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press; on the rights of assembly and association; and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications and warrants for house searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed."

    the rise of the fourth reich
    More recently, the U.S. government's response to a frightened and enraged U.S. citizenry over the September 11 attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center has been eerily reminiscent of Hitler's strategy' that is (1) geared to exacerbate the reaction of fear and hostility and (2) to put on a fast track three initiatives which bear an uneasy resemblance to the Nazi takeover of Germany. The irony is that the rapidity and recklessness with which the U.S. government would abrogate the Bill of Rights places the Bush administration and Congress in the same camp with the enemies of freedom they purport to oppose:
    The Anti-Terrorism Act of 2001 would eliminate the legal requirement for government agents to get permission from a judge before being allowed to search homes and download computer files. Under the proposed law, the information gathered could be used in court, a legal change which presently violates constitutional protections against search and seizure. The proposed bill would also eliminate the requirement for a judge to sign a warrant in order for government agents to get billing records from hotels, phone companies, and other businesses, replacing judicial review with an administrative subpoena. Essentially, agencies would be able to sign their own search warrants and conduct searches in routine secrecy, without having to notify the subject of the search.
    Additionally, this law gives broad surveillance powers to the federal government, and authorizes the issuance of wiretaps by a secret seven-judge court in Washington, D.C. The DOJ bill proposes a host of Wiretap Act expansions which are not limited to terrorism investigations, and which vastly increase the power of the federal government to conduct surveillance of the reading habits and correspondence of the American people. The DOJ bill would expand the power of the police to record the phone numbers of incoming and outgoing phone calls on a phone line to include surveillance of Internet surfing and e-mail. 2.
    Coverage on Monday, September 24, of the Anti-Terrorism Act was limited to Attorney General John Ashcroft's testimony urging hasty passage of the sweeping new police powers sought by the Bush administration. Although Ashcroft’s testimony was open to television cameras, the committee's Republican staff ordered camera crews to leave when civil liberties and free-speech advocates were called to testify. This happened in violation of House rules which state, "Whenever a hearing or meeting conducted by a committee or subcommittee is open to the public, those proceedings shall be open to coverage by audio and visual means."

    American conservatives would object strongly to the removal of their civil liberties under a liberal Democrat such as Al Gore. Because they believe George Bush to be a Christian, their guard is down and Christian conservatives will surrender the Bill of Rights trusting their liberties will be restored once terrorism is eradicated.
    Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. - M Rivero

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    Godwin's killed this thread fast.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    About the Reich argument...

    Unless Bush and the Republicans bombed the towers, the ships, the planes, the embassies, the hotels, the buses, the restaurants... etc...

    The argument is being applied wrongly and does not fit the situation.

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    Second only to the appalling loss of life, the thing I found most disturbing about 9/11 was the immediate, knee-jerk reaction of a tremendous proportion of the American people, and evidenced by the immediate policy changes in the supposedly (evil) 'liberal' media.

    Our great President, who had done so much to earn his poor approval ratings, was suddenly transformed into a courageous and irreproachable leader--for doing what any mediocre actor of limited intelligence and sensitivity would do.

    To question our President instantly became tantamount, in millions of minds, to treason--a gross misreading of the definition of that term in the Constitution:

    "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

    Doonesbury was yanked from several major newspapers, "Politically Incorrect" was taken off the air, as well as a satire on GWB in the White House, all for daring to criticize him for weaknesses entirely unrelated to that terrorist attack.

    Worse yet, he was given carte blanche to do as he chose with his military powers, as long as someone nasty in the Middle East was the target--and anyone who dared question his actions was "unpatriotic", or failing to "support our troops". A much better way to support them being, of course, to send them to the wrong country, where people can blow them up.

    He, and his constituents, have blatantly and unceasingly made political use of this situation, and prolonged it by capitalizing on it in their campaign--in which a vote for his opponent was equated with a vote for terrorism.

    Legislation has been passed, with little or no protest, removing basic rights guaranteed in our Constitution--and this has already been used to shut down stripclubs, which possibility we are told is absurd and paranoid. (Of course, how silly of me--we all know that GWB really loves strippers, and wants to do all he can to protect their right to perform.)

    Now, those of us who fear for the future of the image of our nation, and the needless sacrifice of the lives of our military personnel, in a hyped-up, sensationalised "War on Terror"--being fought in the wrong country--are 'unpatriotic'.

    Right...

    Fuck these people--they are the ones ruining what this country stands for, by at best giving into fear, and at worst supporting a demagogue of the worst kind, and attempting to stifle all that is best about this country--the right to question the misuse of authority being at the top of the list.

    Yes, yes, I know that--as of yet--I can't be arrested for writing this, please spare me the obvious. But there are those out there who would gladly see this sort of post punished, if they could, and who will loudly call me a traitor for writing it.

    They call themselves patriots.
    Last edited by Djoser; 12-04-2004 at 06:58 PM.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    Second only to the appalling loss of life, the thing I found most disturbing about 9/11 was the immediate, knee-jerk reaction of a tremendous proportion of the American people, and evidenced by the immediate policy changes in the supposedly (evil) 'liberal' media.

    Our great President, who had done so much to earn his poor approval ratings, was suddenly transformed into a courageous and irreproachable leader--for doing what any mediocre actor of limited intelligence and sensitivity would do.

    To question our President instantly became tantamount, in millions of minds, to treason--a gross misreading of the definition of that term in the Constitution:

    "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

    Doonesbury was yanked from several major newspapers, "Politically Incorrect" was taken off the air, as well as a satire on GWB in the White House, all for daring to criticize him for weaknesses entirely unrelated to that terrorist attack.

    Worse yet, he was given carte blanche to do as he chose with his military powers, as long as someone nasty in the Middle East was the target--and anyone who dared question his actions was "unpatriotic", or failing to "support our troops". A much better way to support them being, of course, to send them to the wrong country, where people can blow them up.

    He, and his constituents, have blatantly and unceasingly made political use of this situation, and prolonged it by capitalizing on it in their campaign--in which a vote for his opponent was equated with a vote for terrorism.

    Legislation has been passed, with little or no protest, removing basic rights guaranteed in our Constitution--and this has already been used to shut down stripclubs, which possibility we are told is absurd and paranoid. (Of course, how silly of me--we all know that GWB really loves strippers, and wants to do all he can to protect their right to perform.)

    Now, those of us who fear for the future of the image of our nation, and the needless sacrifice of the lives of our military personnel, in a hyped-up, sensationalised "War on Terror"--being fought in the wrong country--are 'unpatriotic'.

    Right...

    Fuck these people--they are the ones ruining what this country stands for, by at best giving into fear, and at worst supporting a demagogue of the worst kind, and attempting to stifle all that is best about this country--the right to question the misuse of authority being at the top of the list.

    Yes, yes, I know that--as of yet--I can't be arrested for writing this, please spare me the obvious. But there are those out there who would gladly see this sort of post punished, if they could, and who will loudly call me a traitor for writing it.

    They call themselves patriots.
    Someone has got to come up with some clearly stated options on what to do about terrorist organizations with budgets of millions of dollars and memberships in the tens of thousands with the support of millions.

    It is a hard, hard answer to come up with.

    But it is one that the Bush opponents need to come up with other than "Bush is doing bad."

    Without such a policy stated and marketed to the voters - it appears they have no plan and even appear to be somewhat naive which in the eyes of most is worse than a bad plan. You can see that in the remarks of pro-Bush supporters about "hippie protestors and lovey-dovey this or that."

    The fact is violence or the threat of violence is a diplomatic tool and it is an important tool.

    Back to the main focus of the thread - I don't believe in the "America - Love it or Leave it" smart ass remarks the (current group) in power throws out to dissidents. One of America's biggest component of our system of government is debate.

    Unfortunately - I have seen little debate (a reasoned discussion) lately in the media and more like gossip (Cheney's daughter is GAY!) and fighting (mud slinging.)

    I hate to say it, but it seems there has been more reasoned debate amongst "outcasts of mainstream society" than in main stream society.

    Now if you will excuse me, I need to find out what dress, purse, and dining establishment Paris Hilton went with today.

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    Someone has got to come up with some clearly stated options on what to do about terrorist organizations with budgets of millions of dollars and memberships in the tens of thousands with the support of millions.

    It is a hard, hard answer to come up with.

    But it is one that the Bush opponents need to come up with other than "Bush is doing bad."
    Well, it's a little late now, but finishing the fucking job in Afghanistan would have been a really good way to deal with it.

    Now he's got us up to our necks in shit, and there's no easy way out. But getting him the hell out of office before he digs us a deeper hole would be a great way to start...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol

    Without such a policy stated and marketed to the voters - it appears they have no plan and even appear to be somewhat naive which in the eyes of most is worse than a bad plan. You can see that in the remarks of pro-Bush supporters about "hippie protestors and lovey-dovey this or that."

    The fact is violence or the threat of violence is a diplomatic tool and it is an important tool.
    What the people need to do is pay more attention to the corporate aristocracy that has taken over this county. Here are a few excerpts from an article called War Inc. The POCLAD site has some really interesting information.

    http://www.poclad.org/articles/ferner02.htm


    “I helped make Mexico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped
    make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to
    collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central
    American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify
    Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in
    1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American
    sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for American fruit
    companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil
    went its way unmolested.” Butler acknowledged that he’d spent most of his
    33 years in the Marines as “a high class muscle man for Big Business, Wall
    Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.”[2]

    Thus did Butler simply and effectively expose a largely unknown truth—how
    the military serves the strategic interests of property in the corporate form.

    For a peek inside this game there are few better tour guides than President Carter’s National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski.

    Having also served on President Reagan’s Defense Department Commission on
    Integrated Long-Term Strategy, Brzezinski is well-qualified to write The
    Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives.[7]


    Brzezinski describes the Europe-Asia landmass as the key to global
    dominance. He asserts that the fall of the Soviet Union cleared the way
    for the U.S. to become the first non-Eurasian power to dominate this
    critical area, "…and America's global primacy is directly dependent on how
    long and how effectively its preponderance on the Eurasian continent is
    sustained...” [8]

    “From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of
    our proposed ($2.5 billion Afghanistan) pipeline cannot begin until a
    recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments,
    lenders and our company. UNOCAL envisions the creation of a Central Asian
    Oil Pipeline Consortium…that will utilize and gather oil from existing
    pipeline infrastructure in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Russia.”[15]



    By the way, the Bush Dynasty has a lot of European Royalty in their family tree. And this guy is supposed to be the President of a country which came to power by rebelling against royal privileges. Pretty scary!
    http://www.sitepalace.com/bush/pafg88.htm
    Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. - M Rivero

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    Quote Originally Posted by livenudegirlsunite
    What the people need to do is pay more attention to the corporate aristocracy that has taken over this county.
    Hell yea!

    Remember when Trump wanted to build that highway to his casino's? Just went over there and told those people who would not sell out "Your house belongs to me now son." Well, not directly - he had the local government implement "eminent domain" on their bums.

    Nearly every sports stadium was built with public money for the benefit of a private team. Unless they put a tax^H^H^Huser fee on every ticket the city isn't getting anything out of it.

    Oh man... there are just to many examples.

    The software patent system is a mess and will be the death of technological innovation in the software business for America. Mark my words.

    And these companies love to have America's might behind them when it comes to legalities with other countries - but no thought about what it means to be a good corporate citizen of the United States... like hiring Americans!

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    I agree with you 100% In fact, some of the greatest minds in American politics do as well:

    "The highest form of democracy is dissent"
    -Thomas Jefferson

    "The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
    -Teddy Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    About the Reich argument...

    Unless Bush and the Republicans bombed the towers, the ships, the planes, the embassies, the hotels, the buses, the restaurants... etc...

    The argument is being applied wrongly and does not fit the situation.
    There is some evidence that the Bush admin. knew that the 9/11 attacks were coming and did nothing.

    Take it anyway you want but there is some evidence that lends itself to the idea that Bush allowed 9/11 to happen so he could follow the PNAC blueprint and attack Iraq.

    Coincidence? Maybe and maybe not. None of us will probably ever know the real truth. But it should be said that in complex situations as these the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

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    Default Re: Real Patriotism VRS False Patriotism

    Actually,

    Bush was preparing to invade Iraq well before 9/11/01 ever happened. 9/11/01 threw a complete monkey wrench into his plans, and ruined his time table.

    As for the Blame of 9/11/01 happening, it should be placed on the BI Partisan Congress ot the 90's whom I remember cutting the Human Intellegence Budget (Humint) deeply slated for that entire region due to the fall of the Soviet Union; over severe massive protest lodged by the intellegence agencies involved due to the terrorist threat in that region.

    In fact during the 9/11/01 pre-invasion of Afganistan the U.S. actually pulled out of retirement and inserted the same Agents congress cut the funding for in the 90's, because we had absolutely no intellegence assets in that area.

    The absolute worst case scenario of irony and "I told you so" combined.
    Last edited by madgrad; 01-04-2005 at 03:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraLove
    There is some evidence that the Bush admin. knew that the 9/11 attacks were coming and did nothing.
    Well, maybe if the terrorists would have waited until Georgie had returned from his vacation, our current Prez would have made more effort to stop the attacks (especially since he would have been in the vicinity).

    It pisses me off to no end that this prez has done WAAAAAAAY less than his predecessors, and in the same amount of time managed to take MORE than 500 days of vacation during his time in office. And, he got re-elected...WHY?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madgrad
    As for the Blame of 9/11/01 happening, it should be placed on the BI Partisan Congress ot the 90's whom I remember cutting the Human Intellegence Budget (Humint) deeply slated for that entire region due to the fall of the Soviet Union; over severe massive protest lodged by the intellegence agencies involved due to the terrorist threat in that region.
    I thought that it wasn't bad/lack of intelligence, but lack of desire to stop those attacks. ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    I thought that it wasn't bad/lack of intelligence, but lack of desire to stop those attacks. ???

    Well, the Admin knew something was coming, they just didn't know what because of the amount of "Chatter" rose to the levels that preceded the US Embassy bombings in 1998.

    The sad thing about the entire incident besides all the Trade Center casulties, was that the Man who knew the most about Al Queda died in the WTC attack, while employed as the Security Manager of the Towers after being retired from the FBI.

    As side note, the thing about intellegence failures is that they often makes the news, while intelligence successes are kept silent and classified; so no one except whoever was involved with them, knows what happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    It was OK (if a little rabid) up until this point.

    Our ill-marketed and poorly-named "War on Terror" is indeed a permanent condition; you can pretend that it's a temporal situation that will go away with a more lovey-dovey, hands-off administration, but that's utter fantasy. Yes, Rove and company made a poor choice in their labelling of our new condition, and that makes people suspicious of motivations, but it doesn't change the fact that we will be combatting terror organizations in a doggedly proactive fashion from here on out--irrespective of the administration in office.

    Considering Europe's seeming inability to acknowledge the wolves at their own door (Denmark, France, Sweden, anyone?), someone has to lead civilized nations in this conflict.

    The first rule of leadership is: when you're the leader, lead.
    With the notable exception of some of the patently unconstitutional legislation concerning wiretaps and warrants that was slammed through in the wake of 9/11, I have to agree with CO's assessment. Moreover, the reality of the situation is that not only has this (the so-called "War On Terror") been coming for a long time now, the sad fact of the matter is that even though we basically realized it was all but inevitable some 15+ years or so ago we didn't have the political will to go ahead and tee it up back when it would have been far less difficult to prosecute and far less fearsome from a defensive perspective. And the price we've payed, and will unfortunately have to continue to pay well into the future for our failure to bite the bullet and do what we knew had to be done when we first realized same is high - a much more far-flung and extensive series of military campaigns that, in terms of both casualties and dollars, will undoubtedly cost us several times over.

    DJ - what are yoou talking about re Afghanistan??? Dude, that's about as close to "perfect" as you're ever going to see with this kind of shit. We hit hard and fast and managed to sweep 4/5's of the country in a matter of days. We either killed the problem children outright or drove them in front of us as we swept towards the mountains. We quickly did a remarkably thorough ID verification of everyone left in our rear area, then immediately started relief and rebuilding efforts, got an interim government up and running, set a firm date for elections and, just as soon as we were sure all was well (about the six month mark) pulled every last soldier and piece of equipment that wasn't absolutely necessary out of the country - thereby largely avoiding the lingering "foreign military presence" problem that breeds the kind of insurgency you're seeing in Iraq now. What's left? Everything we need, and nothing we don't need to finish the job, i.e., the SF teams that are doing the hunting in the mountains, their air support wing, and the air bases near the mountains we're using to supply the whole operation - all of which is situated in the far eastern and southeastern parts of the country, out of sight and out of mind of the majority of the populace. Hell, if we'd have managed to do even half as well in Iraq as we've done in Afghanistan, it'd be cause for huge celebration!
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
    - Luke
    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
    - Boss, re Luke

    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

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