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Thread: Sluts and slobs

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Sluts and slobs

    I've been going to strip clubs for over 40 years and have seen huge changes in the industry during that time. I thought maybe reviewing some of these changes might help some of you younger folks understand where some of your complaints come from.

    For the sake of discussion, let me make some huge simplifying assumptions. Let's assume that there are 2 types of dancer - sluts and nice girls; 2 types of customer - slobs and nice guys; and 2 types of clubs - joints and gentlemen's clubs. When I first started going to clubs they were practically all of the sluts-slobs-joints variety. That was a big part of their draw, the slumming aspect, and lots of us older guys still enjoy that occasionally. But 15 years ago or so something new was added: clubs and dancers alike started to upgrade - the GC's and their nice girls and nice guys (which are disproportionally represented on this site) became a major (although still minority) part of the business. Virtually all of the recent industry growth has been in this category. (Interestingly, the moral majority is partly responsible for this trend - they shut down a lot of the mom-and-pop joints which were replaced by the better-financed chains and their GC's.)

    But today there is a mismatch between supply and demand - the customer base didn't change as much as the clubs and dancers did, so there aren't enough nice guys to fill all the GC's. The clubs respond by attracting slobs to their nice clubs. Which works well for them but not so well for you ladies. So here's a dilemma - all you nice girls out there in your nice clubs have to deal with the slobs to make a decent income. Furthermore, the slobs see the higher prices and expect more, not less. And many of us nice guys have become much more selective too, eg. when I used to hang out in a joint where laps were $10 I'd buy some from many different girls, but now that they're $30 plus tip in my GC I'm much more selective. I'm guessing that the average girl in the joint I used to hang in made more money than an average girl in today's GC. The drop-dead gorgeous babe, the girl with the dynamite personality, and the sluts all probably do well in most GC's but the average girl doesn't. There's an oversupply of nice girls in clubs. It's a real dilemma for those girls who don't have anything special to set themselves apart.

    But we should all stop blaming the sluts and slobs for our problems. Without them there would be no strip clubs. The customers haven't changed, the clubs and dancers have. That's a fact of life and we should all accept it as best we can. Or find something else to do.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

  2. #2
    IACali
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    FONDL you are too funny. I like the sluts-slobs-joints bit. That's my club, right now. We do of course get a few nice custys, and I of course am a nice girl, but it's definitely, overall, a SSJ.

    I do very well at my SSJ, bc I'm a big fish. But I didn't do so well at the GC's I worked at, bc as you say, there's an oversupply of nice girls like me. Whadda shame. LOL.

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    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    You know what's particular funny is that its seems that an upscale atmosphere in a club seems to be a liability in some locations, or at the very least a non-attraction. There are two clubs in Topeka, KS that have absolutely beautiful interior, but I haven't seen that many customers there in recent trips. 25 miles to the east in Lawrence the clubs are semi-ramschakle and every time I've gone, there's always been a good crowd at them.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Interesting take on things. Not sure I agree entirely, but definitely interesting.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    I was thinking about how it is this way in a lot of businesses these days. Say you want to go shopping (which I happen to like to do ). Seems like these days there are only two kinds of stores making it. The discount stores (Wal-Mart, Target) and the really high end ones (Saks, Neimans etc...). The stores in the middle are struggling (Sears, etc...).

    Not sure what that means, but it's strange how two different businesses are seeing the same trends.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Quote Originally Posted by FONDL
    The drop-dead gorgeous babe, the girl with the dynamite personality, and the sluts all probably do well in most GC's but the average girl doesn't. There's an oversupply of nice girls in clubs. It's a real dilemma for those girls who don't have anything special to set themselves apart.

    But we should all stop blaming the sluts and slobs for our problems. Without them there would be no strip clubs. The customers haven't changed, the clubs and dancers have. That's a fact of life and we should all accept it as best we can. Or find something else to do.
    I'm of the opinion that there are too many girls dancing now that shouldn't be, at least in some areas. I'm tired of seeing guts, saggy asses, plain faces, and rude girls (ya know,the girls who tell guys "you don't know what you're missing!" when they are turned down)
    I don't think being a nice girl is a liability per se, but maybe being TOO nice is. But the same can be said for any job. Being too nice is hardly ever a good thing as you will find yourself taken advantage of easily.
    As for the sluts, I think they have their place, even the nicest clubs have them, but at least they keep it behind closed doors so the rest of us who are there for entertainment don't have to be subjected to having sex acts happen all around us. I also think that only in certain areas are the sluts the majority. Most places, I've found them to be the minority.
    As for the slobs, they can be found everywhere too. I was harassed as much as a waitress in a country club as I am as a dancer. Really. Unfortunately, there are some pigs in the world. But I've found that the nice guys make up for the crappy ones, and WAY outnumber them. I probably only meet about one or two rude guys a night. I'd say I probably approach at least 100 guys a night. So one or two out of hundred isn't all that bad. And right now I'm in Texas where there are a lot of "sluts"
    And also, I find that nice guys spend about as much money. They buy drinks for themselves and the dancers, dances for themselves and their friends, etc. Where as the "slob" comes in alone mostly, buys drinks for himself (maybe the dancer), until he finds someone willing to "service" him, and then leaves after the transaction is completed.
    Also, a good attractive hustler can have an income comparable to the sluts.
    So I have to disagree that without the slobs and the sluts there wouldn't be any clubs.
    I think this theory may be valid in whatever area you are in, or clubs that you frequent, but it shouldn't be used as an example of clubs on the whole.

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Hey, it's hard work being a fat, toothless and balding PL with an aversion to Western hygiene standards, but I do what I can.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Veteran Member MisfitBunnie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    I'm tired of seeing guts, saggy asses, plain faces, and rude girls (ya know,the girls who tell guys "you don't know what you're missing!" when they are turned down)
    So basically what your saying is that if your not a 9 or a 10 you shouldn't be dancing, and everybody that doesn't have the perfect body or isn't good looking enough to work at the more upscale clubs shouldn't be dancing?

    Sorry hunny, you need to deflate that big head of yours and come back down to earth and realize that the average american woman is 5'4 and 150 lbs...that is FAR from "perfect". If every woman had to look perfect to be a stripper then their would definatly be a big shortage of strippers thats for sure.

    If you are so perfect why don't you go be a model or an actress instead of a dancer?
    "And Bill, lamenting how you never see a positive drug story on the news..."Today, a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration and that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and you are the imagination of yourself. Here's Tom with the weather...!"- Bill Hicks, The Greatest Comedian Ever!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    I was thinking about how it is this way in a lot of businesses these days. Say you want to go shopping (which I happen to like to do ). Seems like these days there are only two kinds of stores making it. The discount stores (Wal-Mart, Target) and the really high end ones (Saks, Neimans etc...). The stores in the middle are struggling (Sears, etc...).

    Not sure what that means, but it's strange how two different businesses are seeing the same trends.
    you are too right. and then the parallel between this phenomenon and SC's.. not that much of a leap (altho it had never occured to me that it could be so)

    stuff and everything

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Quote Originally Posted by MisfitBunnie
    So basically what your saying is that if your not a 9 or a 10 you shouldn't be dancing, and everybody that doesn't have the perfect body or isn't good looking enough to work at the more upscale clubs shouldn't be dancing?

    Sorry hunny, you need to deflate that big head of yours and come back down to earth and realize that the average american woman is 5'4 and 150 lbs...that is FAR from "perfect". If every woman had to look perfect to be a stripper then their would definatly be a big shortage of strippers thats for sure.

    If you are so perfect why don't you go be a model or an actress instead of a dancer?
    Uh, no I'm just saying that some girls aren't quite up to the challenge and can be bad for business. I'm not talking about voluptuous women, or curvy women. I've gone through this in other posts. Please try not to jump down someone's throat, flaming them and assume you know their opinions on something without simply asking for an explanation first.
    And just so ya know, I've done and still do some modelling here and there.... But even still, I've stated in other posts about how I don't think I'm perfect or look like a super-model. But I do take pride in taking care of myself and looking as good as I can. Even if I didn't have to dance again, I'd never be the type to gain a bunch of weight or let certain things slide, cause I enjoy living a very healthy lifestyle, that's just me, and what makes me happy, don't see anything wrong with that. It's not like I jump down my friends throats and tell them what they should and should not be doing everytime they drive through McDonald's...I don't try to force my healthy eating and exercise habits on everyone, and I don't down other women who even through proper diet and exercise will always have a curvy figure due to their genes. But I do think that there are a lot of strippers out there that could be taking a bit more pride in the profession and in their appearance nowadays.
    And shortage of strippers??? LOL! That'll be the day...even if the standards WERE to be raised a bit....but a girl can always hope! I think PEC in NYC is a perfect example of a club with high standards and NO shortage of strippers.
    Last edited by Brittany; 12-07-2004 at 12:15 AM.

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    Veteran Member MisfitBunnie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    True, some girls aren't up to the challenge. Just like any other buisness, there are people who aren't cut out for the job for many reasons but your reply sounded a bit critical and conceided. If I got the wrong impression, then forgive me. You can take pride in caring for yourself and that is fine but there are women who take pride in being a little different in size than the norm and there are plenty of men out there who like a woman with some weight on them and that have confidence vs. a thinner woman with no confidence or a little too much confidence. A full figured woman is definatly more attractive than any woman who is FULL of herself. Any man will tell you that.
    "And Bill, lamenting how you never see a positive drug story on the news..."Today, a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration and that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and you are the imagination of yourself. Here's Tom with the weather...!"- Bill Hicks, The Greatest Comedian Ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisfitBunnie
    True, some girls aren't up to the challenge. Just like any other buisness, there are people who aren't cut out for the job for many reasons but your reply sounded a bit critical and conceided. If I got the wrong impression, then forgive me. You can take pride in caring for yourself and that is fine but there are women who take pride in being a little different in size than the norm and there are plenty of men out there who like a woman with some weight on them and that have confidence vs. a thinner woman with no confidence or a little too much confidence. A full figured woman is definatly more attractive than any woman who is FULL of herself. Any man will tell you that.
    Again, I think you missed the point. I DID say that I wasn't talking about curvy or voluptous women. So I don't understand how you still type up a reply implying that I had something against curvy or voluptous girls stripping. I don't. Never have. Seen plenty of girls who took excellent care of their body and put a lot into their looks, and they looked lovely with their voluptuous figure.
    And please, just because someone is attractive and knows it, and likes to always take care of themselves doesn't mean that they are full of themselves. It's so lame when someone else looks at an attractive woman and assumes she must be a bitch or be conceited just because she enjoys taking good care of herself. Also, note that I didn't say thinner. You keep bringing up thin here....I've never stated that I'd like to see more girls be THIN...just that it would be better for business if more girls took better care of themselves.

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Dude, I'm not a stick or model-like by any means, and I am definitely one of those voluptuous, curvy girls, but my BMI is healthy and I'm in good shape. And I totally agree that a gut is too much on someone who's getting paid to get naked. There will always be room for strippers of all shapes and sizes, but I prefer to see nice, polite, healthy-looking ones. I don't think that it's too much to ask that in a profession where your body is your toolbox that you try to keep it in good working order. And work on those personal skills, too; I see the rudeness too and it blows my mind.

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    Veteran Member MisfitBunnie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    And please, just because someone is attractive and knows it, and likes to always take care of themselves doesn't mean that they are full of themselves. It's so lame when someone else looks at an attractive woman and assumes she must be a bitch or be conceited just because she enjoys taking good care of herself.
    I don't think every woman who takes care of herself and looks good is full of themselves. But any woman that thinks she is better than any other woman because "she takes better care her herself" or is a little better looking, is a woman that is full of herself. I have worked with girls who were not good lucking at all, they were good people and made good money. This buisness is all about additude and confidence. You can take care of yourself all you want but your looks are only part of this buisness and they will only last so long. As you age, you will constantly be competing against the younger generation of gorgeous women, but you can still make great money with the right additude. Once the wrinkles start popping up and the boobs start making their way down south, you realize that your looks aren't everything but what comes out of your mouth that is everything.
    "And Bill, lamenting how you never see a positive drug story on the news..."Today, a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration and that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and you are the imagination of yourself. Here's Tom with the weather...!"- Bill Hicks, The Greatest Comedian Ever!

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    I don't think that it's too much to ask that in a profession where your body is your toolbox that you try to keep it in good working order. And work on those personal skills, too; I see the rudeness too and it blows my mind.
    Sorry to butt in, just wanted to say yes, yes, yes. I watched a girl I work with the other night literally walk around the room saying "Gimme my tip!" to every guy in there. She was so snotty my mouth dropped.

    I also watched a girl dance today whose tummy literally covered her goodies (I work in a nude club). I thought that was a bit much. 4 custys got up and left when she took the stage.
    You can create with words. It is as simple and as fast as that. Think it, say it and it will manifest according to your belief.~Iyanla Vanzant

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisfitBunnie
    I don't think every woman who takes care of herself and looks good is full of themselves. But any woman that thinks she is better than any other woman because "she takes better care her herself" or is a little better looking, is a woman that is full of herself. I have worked with girls who were not good lucking at all, they were good people and made good money. This buisness is all about additude and confidence. You can take care of yourself all you want but your looks are only part of this buisness and they will only last so long. As you age, you will constantly be competing against the younger generation of gorgeous women, but you can still make great money with the right additude. Once the wrinkles start popping up and the boobs start making their way down south, you realize that your looks aren't everything but what comes out of your mouth that is everything.
    sigh.....when did I ever say I was better? Even said that I didn't try to push my habits on anyone else. Again it's a matter of someone looking good, and another person taking it upon themselves to say that they must be a bad person as a result.
    I've also said in previous posts that attitude and confidence count for a lot in this business.
    I'm already 32 thank you very much. Not having a hard time at all competing yet. Don't imagine that I will. I DO have a great attitude. How the hell else would I be able to work in contact clubs in Texas, make just as much money as someone else...and still not grind or rub my boobs on anyone's face? Again, you're making assumptions here, based on the fact that I've said I'm attractive, and that I wished others would take better care of themselves.
    As for wrinkles, hey...they got botox and face-lifts for that. I'll be first in line when my time comes, after all, as I've said I don't want to let anything slide. But since I take good care of myself, It will be a while before I'm in need of any upkeep. Guys always guess my age at anywhere from 21-25...a few have guessed 26.
    And boobs? Well they're fake, and they're fantastic, thanks! Perky as ever. When the time comes that I need a new set, I'll get in line for those too.
    Now I suppose something will be said about my wanting plastic surgery, but I really don't give a flip what others think about me going under the knife.

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Congratulations! A couple of you picked up on one of my key points without my ever stating it explicitly. And that is that our economy is bifurcating. You can see it everywhere. High end and low end businesses are doing very well while the ones in the middle are hurting. And what's especially interesting is that it's the same customers at both ends. People go to high end stores for the things that interest them the most and go to low end stores for everything else. For example, you might buy a cheap car but expensive clothes while I do the exact opposite.

    But getting back to the original analogy, there's another implication that is causing a lot of problems for dancers. The slobs out there think that all dancers are sluts, because that's been their experience. So when you refuse to do something that they're accustomed to getting and you are charging a higher price to boot, they take it personally. They think you're doing stuff for the rich guys but not for them because you think you're better than they are, that you have an attitude. They retaliate with rudeness. And I still think there are a ton of sluts and slobs out there, maybe just no in your club. I wonder how many of us will admit to being a slut or slob? I think I'm a slob sometimes, it's kinda fun.

    As far as the discussion on whether a dancer should be as fit as possible, in my opinion any out-of-shape dancer can increase her income by getting into better shape. As I said before, when guys are paying top dollar they expect the best. I know I do.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    I'm a nice guy that enjoys the company of sluts. Is there a niche in the market for me? Okay, maybe I'm not all that nice....
    A fat chick is like a big, warm, comfortable pillow that you can also have sex with....

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Quote Originally Posted by FONDL
    People go to high end stores for the things that interest them the most and go to low end stores for everything else. For example, you might buy a cheap car but expensive clothes while I do the exact opposite.
    Aside for the nice new desktop I bought, SC'ing is about my only upscale expense. Otherwise I live in a budgety apartment, I drive a budgety car, I stay in budgety motels, I still use dial-up internet connection, I buy generic brand groceries.

    there's another implication that is causing a lot of problems for dancers. The slobs out there think that all dancers are sluts, because that's been their experience. So when you refuse to do something that they're accustomed to getting and you are charging a higher price to boot, they take it personally. They think you're doing stuff for the rich guys but not for them because you think you're better than they are, that you have an attitude. They retaliate with rudeness.
    I call this the "champagne room" effect. Most A tier dancers (like Brittany) can count on a whale coming in and buying the premium service from them on most nights. More often than not they can pretty much overlook customers who just want a few dances, as they're not the best investment for their time.

    The B-tier dancers (still attractive, but down a notch in looks) don't have this kind of luxury, so they get stuck with the customers who are left. Because of this, they get a lot more exposure to a lot more guys during their shifts (as opposed to entertaining a whale or two in VIP), and often have to compensate for their disadvantage in looks by showing more "personality" or being more mileage friendly.

    On those nights where there are no whales available and the A-tier girls have no choice but to hustle the floor, they come across as snobbish or lazy, not through their own fault really, but because the B-tier gals, who have to work harder for their dollars, have set the floor customers expectations to a different standard.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Okay FONDL, try this as another explanation to your theory.

    One factor that you overlooked is the government. I'm guessing that in most cities, the possibilities of opening up another strip club are pretty small. So the owner of your average, neighborhood strip club figures he has a virtual monopoly. However, since he'd like to increase his income (don't we all want to), he decides that the only way to make more money is to go upscale. So he spends a bunch of money turning his "joint" into a "gentleman's club", upgrading the sound, stage, putting in VIP rooms, adding high-priced champagne, maybe even a kitchen. He does all this feeling very confident he'll make a bunch of money, after all, he's the only game in town. Only thing is, there is a limited supply of "nice guys" with the money to spend on such luxuories. There's also a limited supply of "nice girls" willing to work in the sex industry. So he winds up hiring "sluts" to cater to the "slobs" he needs to make money.

    I just finished a class in economics, so this is very interesting to me. I can't say I'm nearly as smart as you (I have no idea what bifurcating means). But I do know that you can't overlook the role of government in limiting the supply.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

  21. #21
    Pamela
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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    I will be happy to use myself as an example of the changes, well to point anyway.

    21 years old: Stage dancer ONLY. Topless.

    30's, became a stage/lap dancer only

    30's became a high mileage dancer

    Today before i bang out of the industry, i do private parties, with shower shows, masturbation and yes....stripping first.

    Hired on by a escort agency, i keep this OUT of the clubs.

    I changed with the times ONLY for the money! I would not make today what i did at 21 on stage alone.

    I DO NOt have sex with customers, and i respect other dancers who DO NOt dance with the contact i do.

    I have been dancing too damn long, and i still abide by the rules of ANY club. They say a friction dance is fine, i have at it! No friction dances, i abide by that. But i will look for a club that will allow a tad more contact, before ruining the atmosphere for others in a club that does not allow any contact.

    Pamela

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Great thinking, FONDL. I have several observations on the SSJ/NNG Theory:

    * I've seen joints labeled as gentlemen's clubs. The difference for me is whether I feel dirty when I leave. I like Swisher towels in the restrooms.

    * The nice girl/slut dynamic has encouraged nice girls to become private and discrete GFE sluts for selected nice guys. I think that answers your question, ML. I'm always looking out for guys who think like me.

    * The "intimidation factor" with gorgeous dancers makes friendly girls in the 8.4-9.4 range surprisingly attractive to nice guys. I just find them comfortable.

    * The auto industry builds for more market niches now than ever before. You don't see bifurcation in the restaurant sector, either. Much of the "in between" retail has gone to specialty stores rather than department stores, but they're all in the same mall/plaza.

    * Clubs are often poorly managed, but some adapt nicely to their markets. They look like clean NNG places to most people, but regulars can get to the dark side without much thought.
    Last edited by SportsWriter2; 12-07-2004 at 08:01 PM.

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    I think Fondl hit the nail on the head when it comes to why "slobs" are rude. But others are just rude for the heck of it cause they think that they can get away with it, or it's just the way they are.
    As far as a/b scale dancers go, I'd say that bit was almost on target there. Except in the instance of high contact clubs. I find that one of the reasons I'm able to hustle to so well, and move around from guy to guy quickly, is that I take good care of myself (there are many other aspects to hustling as well that I've discussed in previous posts). Since I am able to hustle so well, and move around from guy to guy, I really don't HAVE to do all that slutty of a dance, and the customers don't expect ME to give them one of those "slut" dances anyways, since for many guys I have other, but just as good, things to offer (albeit "good" in a different way). I find I make more money roaming around the room doing dances. I can more often than not count on doing multiple dances in a row for a longer period of time than I would be able to sitting with someone.
    In high contact clubs, it's often the b scale friendly girls who end up in VIP. I don't have to put up with someone's crap in VIP, unless he's prepared to be a gentleman, and pay me what I'd be missing out on by not roaming the floor. So usually....this means that I end up sitting down with a whale when the floor is slow.
    Edited to add that I don't think many guys are really intimidated at all by attractive women in the clubs, and often say they wish all the girls in there looked good. I bet other girls would say the same thing as far as this goes.
    Last edited by Brittany; 12-07-2004 at 01:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Lots of good discussion on the dilemma facing dancers. But I think a lot of customers face a dilemma too. Many of us nice guys prefer the joints because they're smaller and cozier, they're usually more friendly, and they're almost always a lot cheaper. But we also prefer the nice girls, and it's hard to find nice girls in joints. For me the best SC experience of all is when I can find a really nice girl in a joint. But usually I have to settle for a slut. So here's a suggestion: maybe some of you nice girls who aren't making a whole lot in your gentlemen's club should try switching to a joint. It won't be as fancy and your co-workers won't be as classy. But maybe you can be a big fish in a small pond and it will work better for you than being a small fish in that big pond you're in now. And who knows, if you lighten up a little you might just find that some of those sluts and slobs turn out to be pretty nice people, once you get to know them. That's been my experience. Just a thought.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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    Default Re: Sluts and slobs

    Quote Originally Posted by FONDL
    Many of us nice guys prefer the joints because they're smaller and cozier, they're usually more friendly, and they're almost always a lot cheaper. But we also prefer the nice girls, and it's hard to find nice girls in joints. For me the best SC experience of all is when I can find a really nice girl in a joint. But usually I have to settle for a slut.
    Laid-back club, $4 pitchers, bartender knows what you like, two sports channels, pool table, paper towels in the restroom, surprisingly clean, friendly sluts, comfy semi-private lapdance booths, $20 dances and girls undercount. Nice 8.8 fave, community college nursing student, one small butterfly tat, no smoke, gets into it "only for you," completely huggable, sometime surfing buddy. Endless GFE. Life doesn't get any better than that.
    Last edited by SportsWriter2; 12-08-2004 at 05:41 AM.

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