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Thread: Keeping a sugardaddy

  1. #51
    Veteran Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    I'm 100% with Jenny on this. If you don't want to spend time with someone, you're not devaluing THEIR time by saying it will cost them money to spend time with you. In all sorts of professions that's the way things work--and the profession of dancers is pretty much just that: spending time with their customer in whatever (non-sexual) way the two of them can agree on.

    Whether the sugar daddy has his own issues...Sure, maybe he does. But maybe he doesn't. In this case, doesn't sound to me like the guy is looking for a SB due to a lack of self-worth.

    I also agree with Lilith that a dancer doesn't have to shoot herself in the foot by telling a guy upfront that their SD/SB relationship isn't going to end up with sex. The only line I'd draw there is that she should NOT lie...If some element of the relationship (e.g. sex)matters so much to the guy, he will persist in questioning until her intentions become apparent. If he doesn't think he can change her mind, he'll probably be done with her. And that's fair. That's better disclosure than you will get from a used-car salesman, and all you can expect from someone who makes a living doing it.

    I don't think the comparison with a first date is accurate (since this is an outgrowth of her job as a dancer, it's reasonable to apply the same SEA analysis to the SD/SB relationship). I DO think that the best way for both parties to end up satisfied is if they agree on things going in, but that that path may not be the best way for the dancer/SB to maximize her own returns. So you may have to weigh how much you want to hurt/mislead the guy to get money.

    Having said that, I DO think that you should answer questions honestly on your first date! If the guy asks if he's going to have sex with you, I'd think 99% of the time that's pretty easy to answer ("Um...No. I have to go."). That doesn't mean you have to give the WHOLE answer ("maybe later" doesn't have to become "if I have a complete personality change"), but honesty is a pretty low bar.

  2. #52
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith
    if such a scenario concerns them only in regards to the woman's "ethical" obligations to a man like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker
    honesty is a pretty low bar.
    We are now pretty far off on a tangent from "sugar relationships", but re non-commercial relationships - right, it is only that rather low bar that I am advocating. And, since I don't seem to have made myself clear - no, not just re questions from the man to the woman about her willingness to have sex. Here are some examples of serious questions that can come up quite early, even on a first date, in a budding relationship between reasonably mature and sophisticated people:

    Are you married?

    Have you ever been married?

    Do you have any children?

    How sexually active are you at this point in your life?

    Do you have any or are you at risk for any STDs?

    Do you use drugs?

    Do you have any drinking or other addiction problems?

    Are you ever willing to have casual sexual relationships or is sex only a part of a serious relationship for you?

    Do you find me sexually attractive?

    Etc.

    Depending on the people involved, these questions may be phrased in either a completely direct and explicit way or may be asked in a more subtle and indirect style. And all of the above questions can and are asked by both men and women. Moreover, it is not rare for people to lie in response to these and similar questions, especially early in a relationship. However, rare or common, it is wrong (and unwise) to do so, imo...equally wrong for a man or a woman. And I too think it is a fairly "low bar".

    Getting back to "sugar relationships", my personal opinion (fwiiw) is that lying about such topics is also wrong in that context, again whether you are the "baby" or the "daddy", but what I originally intended to do in this thread was to ask what others thought about such honesty issues when "sugar"is involved. Does the "sugar" change the ethics at all? It strikes me as an interesting issue, but not one about which we should expect to find everyone in agreement and also not one about which anyone need feel insulted (if that is what is happening).

    -Ww
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    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
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    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
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  3. #53
    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    You know, I never realized just how many men view a first date between civilians to be a business transaction. I paid for your dinner and/or theater tickets, so now you owe me. I think I need a shower now.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

  4. #54
    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Here are some examples of serious questions that can come up quite early, even on a first date, in a budding relationship between reasonably mature and sophisticated people:

    Are you married?

    Have you ever been married?

    Do you have any children?

    .... [etc etc snipped]
    Backpedalling burns 300 calories per hour, did you know that? We weren't discussing getting-to-know-you, by-the-by questions. I brought up the corrolation to a pair of civilians on their first date and a man who wanted to know when his date would put out. You stated that a woman was obligated ("obliged" being your very word) to answer honestly any direct question her date asked about when he would get some nookie.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith
    You know, I never realized just how many men view a first date between civilians to be a business transaction. I paid for your dinner and/or theater tickets, so now you owe me. I think I need a shower now.
    And ugly old perverts trying to fuck sexy young women for money are by far the most abused category in our society today.

    Who cares about ghetto children, native populations eradicated by imperialist Anglo-Saxons, or Middle Eastern despots torturing their own people? Right here in our stripclubs we can find the most abused and downtrodden of all, who are being discriminated against and taken advantage of by vicious and predatory women, out for their own physical gain.
    Last edited by Djoser; 01-25-2005 at 01:44 PM. Reason: gross and disgusting spelling and grammatical errors for which I should be shot
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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  6. #56
    Veteran Member Adina's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith
    You know, I never realized just how many men view a first date between civilians to be a business transaction. I paid for your dinner and/or theater tickets, so now you owe me. I think I need a shower now.
    Totally unrelated to the tangential direction this thread has taken, but I went on a couple of dates with someone a year ago. When it became obvious that he was "off" in more ways than one, and I told him I wasn't interested in pursuing a relationship, he tallied the amount of money he had spent on our dates and demanded it back. So I sent him a check - because I wanted to see if he'd actually cash it.

    And you know what? He did.

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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    And ugly old perverts trying to fuck sexy young women for money are by far the most abused category in our society today.

    Who cares about ghetto children, native populations eradicated by imperialist Anglo-saxons, or Middle Eastern despots torturing their own people? Right here in our stripclubs we can find the most abused and downtrodden of all, who are being discrimated against and taken advantage of by vicious and predatory women, out for their own physical gain.
    Holy crap, Djoser, you're right!

    Maybe we should start a collection for them. It's not like it is their fault that the money is just vanishing from their pockets!



    Because there ain't no tits on the radio

  8. #58
    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn
    They hire them to provide them with said services with no social obligation on their part which is the standard quid pro quo for sharing such intimacies.
    Ha! I've said exactly the same thing to guys who think customers in strip clubs must all be losers (which still begs the question of why those guys are in a strip club, and are they "losers" too?) .
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn
    They don't pay women to have sex with them. They pay them to go away after they are finished.
    Why not just save money and pay them a little less to stay away in the first place?
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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  10. #60
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Adina
    So I sent him a check - because I wanted to see if he'd actually cash it. And you know what? He did.
    Wow, what a modern, free-thinking and liberated guy...still a rare breed indeed!

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  11. #61
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Lilith, please...You just have to ANSWER the question, you don't have to put out! You're completely entitled to tell the guy to fuck off or whatever, you just shouldn't lie to him.

    Regardless of what the question is--you can tell him it's none of his business, you can tell him you don't know the answer or don't want to tell him, but just DON'T LIE.

    That's the standard of conduct that makes you want to take a shower?

    And Djoser, you're right...It's not the rich old perverts that need to be watched out for, but the sexy young American women! THEY'RE the ones who REALLY need to be taken care of!

  12. #62
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker
    Regardless of what the question is--you can tell him it's none of his business, you can tell him you don't know the answer or don't want to tell him, but just DON'T LIE.
    Boldface added.

    Precisely. Fwiiw, I can't for the life of me see what is so exceptional or demanding or unfair or gender discriminatory about that standard/expectation.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
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  13. #63
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn
    I disagree. Healthy men who don't believe there is anything wrong with consenting adults contracting for personal services don't hire hookers because their services are unlikely to be volunteered. They hire them to provide them with said services with no social obligation on their part which is the standard quid pro quo for sharing such intimacies.

    In otherwords. They don't pay women to have sex with them. They pay them to go away after they are finished.
    Alright. You'll forgive me if I think that is a little naive. I'm pretty sure that they are in fact paying to have sex with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn
    Like I said... so much of this business goes on without much serious thought. The dancers and the customers alike. This venue is unique in that it is one of the few places, because of the anonimity factor, where dancers and customers can be straight with one another, let their hair down, and really talk. I just think it would be such a waste of an opportunity to learn a little something about each other if all we did here was run our games past one other the same way we do in the clubs.
    But see, part of the whole anonymity factor is what causes the problems. Because, as much as we want to prove our points by analogy (which traditionally is meant to explain a position, and not to prove anything) there really are no situations that are strictly analagous to a stripclub. We have all seen unscrupulous practices by both men and women that in slightly different circumstances would have been perfectly acceptable. I think I am coming to the opinion that most of the things should be taken on a case-by-case.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    And ugly old perverts trying to fuck sexy young women for money are by far the most abused category in our society today.

    Who cares about ghetto children, native populations eradicated by imperialist Anglo-Saxons, or Middle Eastern despots torturing their own people? Right here in our stripclubs we can find the most abused and downtrodden of all, who are being discriminated against and taken advantage of by vicious and predatory women, out for their own physical gain.
    I get it. Go into a business where you can generate sufficient contempt for the customer base and then you can justify doing whatever unscrupulous shit you want, because of the course the customers are contemptible.

    While I agree with you about the magnitude of this issue in comparison with other more global concerns, I haven't seen you make this same point in the thread where strippers complain about guys who come into clubs but don't tip. Dude, EVERYTHING (everything on topic, anyway) that's discussed on this board is trivial.

  15. #65
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Djoser--My apologies but I couldn't get your PM (my browser blocks pop-ups). Is there any way to access it now? I have to confess I'm not the most computer-savvy...

  16. #66
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Well, generally, our customer base is pretty contemptible. tell the truth - have you NEVER had your stomach turned by watching a gross old man come in and fondle (not necessarily sexually) a very young girl, and act like he just has a perfect right to? Yes, we know it's our business, but really, sometimes, when you look at it, isn't it just really hard to feel a lot of sympathy for that client base? And then of course, sometimes it's not. Situational.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Boldface added.

    Precisely. Fwiiw, I can't for the life of me see what is so exceptional or demanding or unfair or gender discriminatory about that standard/expectation.

    -Ww
    Oh sure. Nothing whatsoever wrong with a man like that. There's only an ethical problem if the deceitful wench isn't perfectly honest with him.

    Lurker, the option of not answering or telling him off or whatnot was not given by Wwanderer. If a man directly asks his date, on their first social occasion, when she will give him nookie, she is obliged to answer and do so honestly. That was the situation put forth and that was the answer given by Wwanderer. Not much room for the benefit of the doubt in there.

    Again, I am not swayed by the questionable ethics argument of those who do not fully grasp the concept of manners or equally apply those same ethics.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker
    Djoser--My apologies but I couldn't get your PM (my browser blocks pop-ups). Is there any way to access it now? I have to confess I'm not the most computer-savvy...
    If you go up and click on the "Private Messages" written in purple, in the upper right hand corner, it should take you there without the pop-up blocker stopping it--that's the way it works on mine.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Well, telling him to F--O--, that it's not his business, etc. are all answers that are, in fact, answers and honest to boot. And I think at this point in the thread, regardless of whether he constructed the initial example ambiguously or you misconstrued it, it's clear that those would be acceptable to Ww as answers. I'm not sure we disagree anymore. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    EDIT: I guess they're not technically answers to the question he's asking, but they would in most cases have an implicit answer which would be quite clear to the inquirer (i.e. No/Never).
    Last edited by Lurker; 01-25-2005 at 03:05 PM. Reason: Logical imprecision

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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Well, generally, our customer base is pretty contemptible. tell the truth - have you NEVER had your stomach turned by watching a gross old man come in and fondle (not necessarily sexually) a very young girl, and act like he just has a perfect right to? Yes, we know it's our business, but really, sometimes, when you look at it, isn't it just really hard to feel a lot of sympathy for that client base? And then of course, sometimes it's not. Situational.
    Sure. Frankly, most things about strip clubs turn my stomach.

    But here's the thing: the point of ethics is that you have to treat the people it's "just really hard to feel a lot of sympathy for" just as well as you treat everybody else. To indulge in a mind-boggling overstatement, Germans in the 30s and 40s didn't find Jews very "sympathetic" -- they thought they were unattractive money-grubbers with bad hygiene -- but that didn't justify what the Germans did to them. Lots of people in the USA today don't find Muslims very "sympathetic", but that doesn't justify the shit those people would pull if other right-thinking people weren't around to stop them.

    But bringing this back down to earth -- cuz Djozer's right, really I don't think that pervs are up there with German Jews and Muslims on the endangered people list -- the issue here isn't whether old pervs skeez you out, or whether some aspects of sex work make you want to vomit. The issue is whether any of that gives you a right to act unscrupulously toward the pervs. I just don't see how it does.

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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rath
    I get it. Go into a business where you can generate sufficient contempt for the customer base and then you can justify doing whatever unscrupulous shit you want, because of the course the customers are contemptible.
    ...I haven't seen you make this same point in the thread where strippers complain about guys who come into clubs but don't tip.
    Actually, I have...

    The point isn't really that men hold the prize for always being contemptible. They don't. I have worked with some incredibly selfish, contemptible women who weren't fit to tie my shoes. But by and large, the guys who are trying to fuck the dancers are not being taken advantage of any more than they are trying to do the same.

    Since this is a dancer site, and I have worked with them and seen the shit they have to put up with, I tend to be more sympathetic here. If I were on a site for customers, I would find it irritating if the dancers who visited the site were to shrilly counter every single post by a customer complaining about common problems in stripclubs with an outraged diatribe, the way some customers do here, over and over again.
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Fair enough. Thanks.

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith
    Oh sure. Nothing whatsoever wrong with a man like that. There's only an ethical problem if the deceitful wench isn't perfectly honest with him.
    But...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    the above questions can and are asked by both men and women. Moreover, it is not rare for people to lie in response to these and similar questions, especially early in a relationship. However, rare or common, it is wrong (and unwise) to do so, imo...equally wrong for a man or a woman.
    It seems clear that I am seriously bothering or offending you somehow, but I really don't do net flame wars or crticizing individuals in public posts (as individuals, as opposed to criticizing their arguments or views), so don't expect me to take offense or "yell" at you or any such thing in this discussion. However, when you assert that I think/believe something which I do not...and indeed which is the opposite of what I have just said, I will point it out. As in this case.

    So, once more and fwiiw, I think that it is equally wrong for men to lie to women in the context of either conventional romantic or "sugar" type relationships. Moreover, I acknowledge that it is common for men to do so in both instances; on average, men are no more honest than women in such contexts and are at least arguably less so. If the emphasis of this discussion has been on the behavior of women, it is because the topic is "keeping a sugar daddy", not "keeping a sugar baby".

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rath
    Sure. Frankly, most things about strip clubs turn my stomach.
    And yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rath
    But here's the thing: the point of ethics is that you have to treat the people it's "just really hard to feel a lot of sympathy for" just as well as you treat everybody else. To indulge in a mind-boggling overstatement, Germans in the 30s and 40s didn't find Jews very "sympathetic"
    Yeah, you're right. That is a mind boggling overstatement and, frankly, a grossly inappropriate analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rath
    But bringing this back down to earth -- cuz Djozer's right, really I don't think that pervs are up there with German Jews and Muslims on the endangered people list -- the issue here isn't whether old pervs skeez you out, or whether some aspects of sex work make you want to vomit. The issue is whether any of that gives you a right to act unscrupulously toward the pervs. I just don't see how it does.
    I don't know - I don't believe it's NICE to act unscrupulously towards anyone - however, I think there is definitely some merit to the position that men are in there to try and pry as much out of us as they can while paying the bare minimum, and they feel no guilt about making implications that they might not follow through on and that therefore we have limited obligations to them. But, like I said before: maybe it is best to take it on a case by case basis.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Keeping a sugardaddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    I don't know - I don't believe it's NICE to act unscrupulously towards anyone - however, I think there is definitely some merit to the position that men are in there to try and pry as much out of us as they can while paying the bare minimum, and they feel no guilt about making implications that they might not follow through on and that therefore we have limited obligations to them. But, like I said before: maybe it is best to take it on a case by case basis.
    You're probably right about the case-by-case basis. You might even be subscribing to Wwanderer's dread SEA thesis.

    Obviously, the problems I have with that are, first, you start letting things slide cuz you're dealing with pervs in a strip club, and then you begin to forget that you're only excusing your unscrupulous behavior cuz it's in a strip club where there might be some situational justification for it, and you just start acting unscrupulously generally. I've seen that happen to a lot of women I once liked.

    My second problem is that you start saying that sometimes it's OK to act unscrupulously cuz you're dealing with pervs in a strip club, and the next thing you know, you find yourself thinking like a majority of the posters in a thread they had on this board a year or two ago. In that thread, a stripper (who might well have been a troll trying to stir up some trouble) claimed she had defrauded a customer out of more than $30,000 by means of false promises of out-of-club sex, and reported that the customer's wife was now suing her to get the money back. And you know what? A majority of the posters in the thread sided with the stripper. My mind still boggles at that.

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