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Thread: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    All this talk about legal issues in the context of strip clubs reminds me of a question that has sometimes crossed my mind when I see those familiar strip club employess who manage the neat trick of looking simultaneously overdressed and threatening.

    Namely, what exactly can they do to a misbehaving customer in principle, on a legal basis? My guess, but I certainly don't know for sure, is that they cannot use force at all, can't even touch a customer, unless they are directly defending themselves or someone else. In particular, they could not forcefully eject a customer from the club for bad behavior (short of assault on someone), not even if he were, say, busting up the furniture, going into the dancers' dressing room or something outrageous like that. My guess is that legally they could only call the cops in such situations, just like any other employee or customer could....again, in principle. But I am not sure. Anyone know better?

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    If there is a customer forcefully trying to get into the dressing room or purposefully trashing my place of employment, or trying to take off with out paying me the $$$ he owes me, the bouncer damn well better be picking the dude up by the back of his neck and using his head to open the front door. OTOH, if a customer is just being extremely grabby and acting like a jackass in general, no force needed. Just get rid of him.
    life is only what you make of it

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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    I don't know about legally, but my guess is that if a customer was acting violently and was actually breaking furniture or something, and a bouncer picked him up and tossed him, the cops would probably be on the bouncer's side. This goes for any kind of club. I've certainly seen more guys get tossed from rock clubs than strip clubs in my time.

    I mean, if someone's causing trouble in a place of business, the business owner can have him escorted from the premises, right? I'm just not sure how, legally, the owner's actions are limited when the customer refuses to leave. Interesting question.

    And I am sure we can expect to hear Melonie's story about throwing a guy out herself any time now . . .

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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Namely, what exactly can they do to a misbehaving customer in principle, on a legal basis?
    Remove him from the premises, using only that physical force necessary to prevent him from harming employees, other customers, and property.

    If somebody walks in your house and starts busting up the place, and you ask him to "stop" and "get off your property," can you then physically eject him? Can you use whatever force is necessary to prevent him from assaulting/battering you and/or others in your house?

    That said, unless the guy is totally out of control, the better option is to do your best to get him to leave without touching him and/or keep him occupied in discussion of leaving while waiting for LE to arrive, as once you lay a hand on him your odds of a civil suit arising out of it go through the roof.
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    Veteran Member stant's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by GnBeret
    ....once you lay a hand on him your odds of a civil suit arising out of it go through the roof....
    "DAMN that hurt dude, I think you dislocated my shoulder. So much for my pro tennis career."

    It just comes naturally after a while.

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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Aja... especially after their first coaching session, ahh.. 'scuse me... meant clinic visit, to the friendly neighborhood "Plaintiff's Whore Doctor," eh?
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
    - Luke
    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
    - Boss, re Luke

    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

  7. #7
    Pamela
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    First if the bouncer is a police officer (have been known to be bouncers at night/day) he is always a police officer lay a hand on him, and it's a different game. I have seen ALL bouncers at any club i go to remove people by grabbing by the arms and leading them to the door. I have see, bouncers take people to the floor and hold them until police arrived.

    Yes they use force, but i don't know what was said or done to lead up to this.

    I have yet to hit a club were force of some sort was NOT being used at one time or another. Was the club ever sued? I never read or heard about it.

    Pamela

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    Veteran Member stant's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pamela
    Was the club ever sued? I never read or heard about it.

    Pamela
    Not something that gets advertised by the club. You might be shocked at what you never heard about.


    Permissiveness of abuse seems to be an ongoing theme and complaint. Guess what remedy is available to the maligned?

    You can lead a horse to water.....
    Last edited by stant; 01-08-2005 at 12:20 PM.

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Legal consequences or not, I have been in clubs where f*cking with the bouncers would be begging for a broken jaw. They may be exceptional, but don't kid yourself, they are out there.

    There was a bottle/strip club in particular where throwing your weight around would have been very stupid. If neither of the motorcycle gangs who wore their colors in (though rarely at the same time) didn't get you, or one of the dancers (they may have been sexy--or some of them lol--but they were tough), the bouncers surely would...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward
    I mean, if someone's causing trouble in a place of business, the business owner can have him escorted from the premises, right? I'm just not sure how, legally, the owner's actions are limited when the customer refuses to leave. Interesting question.
    Quote Originally Posted by GnBeret
    If somebody walks in your house and starts busting up the place, and you ask him to "stop" and "get off your property," can you then physically eject him? Can you use whatever force is necessary to prevent him from assaulting/battering you and/or others in your house?
    These are the sorts of issues I had in mind in starting the thread

    Whether it is one's home or a place of business, I think only LE can legally use force to remove someone from the premesis...but I am not sure. Defending yourself or someone else from harm is a different matter, of course.

    And, of course, I am aware that reality is a bit different in practice.

    -Ww
    Last edited by VenusGoddess; 01-08-2005 at 10:50 PM.
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    A bouncer, even if he is a moonlighting cop, cannot use any unnecessary force. By physically restraining ANYONE for ANY reason, he opens himself and the club up for some legal ramifications. I've heard of off-duty police officers get fried in court when they thought they would be above the law. If a cop wants to keep his daytime job, he'll remember that the "rules" he goes by for being a cop do not apply to him being a bouncer.

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Sorry, folks...had to get this back on topic...

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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    These are the sorts of issues I had in mind in starting the thread

    Whether it is one's home or a place of business, I think only LE can legally use force to remove someone from the premesis...but I am not sure. Defending yourself or someone else from harm is a different matter, of course.

    And, of course, I am aware that reality is a bit different in practice.

    -Ww
    Actually, I intended for the questions re your house to be taken rhetorically. However, upon further reflection I remembered hearing about some of the more restrictive provisions regarding defense of property that are supposedly in effect in some of the NE states and possibly elsewhere up North. That said, don't try that kind of crap in Texas, or most of the other States in the South, 'cause after the property owner is finished kicking your ass in the process of removing you from the premises, you'll probably get arrested by the cops too. And if you manage to avoid being sanctioned by the Judge should you decide to file suit, you'll probably get zeroed and laughed out of court by the jury.

    Self-defense or defense of someone else is another matter entirely... if you're subjectively in fear of loss of life or serious injury for yourself or another, and the objective evidence supports your fears as being "reasonable" under the circumstances, the rule is necessary force (of course, the South being the South, you have a lot more latitude in your determination of what was necessary under the circumstances - for instance, the "shoot the burglar" laws).
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    If a cop wants to keep his daytime job, he'll remember that the "rules" he goes by for being a cop do not apply to him being a bouncer.
    This is a good example of the differences in the laws from State to State, especially North vs. South - cop's a cop in some States, moonlighting or not.
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
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    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    Sorry, folks...had to get this back on topic...
    Mea culpa, VG... sorry.
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
    - Luke
    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
    - Boss, re Luke

    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    This security expert has some relevant perspective on the issue.

    http://www.crimedoctor.com/nightclub_security_3.htm

    -Ev

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    This short excerpt

    "The authority of a bouncer or any other security person is the same as any ordinary citizen. Bouncers have no special authority to physically eject a customer who merely becomes intoxicated or verbally obnoxious. As an employee of the nightclub, bouncers can only demand that the undesirable customer leave. If the customer refuses to leave your only legal recourse is to call the police."

    from the link Ev posted above seems to answer my initial question very clearly and directly. (Thanks!) The text of the link discusses the issue in more detail, but the above seems to be the basic point. Whether or not the legalities differ significantly in different states and whether or not things work this way in practice are, of course, somewhat different issues.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Well, clearly they're not allowed to kill people!

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...o_wdsu/2525942
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
    - Boss, re Luke

    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    When I was a bouncer I used as much force as neccessary to remove patrons who were violent, drunk or just being stupid. Several times it escalated into a fight. Most times words alone were enough to eject the patron

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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by GnBeret
    Remove him from the premises, using only that physical force necessary to prevent him from harming employees, other customers, and property.

    If somebody walks in your house and starts busting up the place, and you ask him to "stop" and "get off your property," can you then physically eject him? Can you use whatever force is necessary to prevent him from assaulting/battering you and/or others in your house?
    This is 100% on target. A favorite phrased used by many bouncers and not just in SC's is "this is my house"

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    Featured Member scorpio's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    That consultant is good. Well thought out procedures and rules to cover a clubs liability.

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Thorn, what fraction of the bouncers employed in strip clubs (in NY/NJ, say, if that is where you are familiar with the scene) are adequately informed and trained re the legal aspects of the job, would estimate?

    -Ww

    PS - Your post(s) on this topic changed while I was writing the above...not sure it makes as much sense with the new version, but anyway, the question still stands I guess.
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Good God, I know bouncers in Florida who love their jobs because they get to "bust heads" on a regular basis. The guys employed where my girlfriend works, here in Detroit, are probably begging for a lawsuit that'll never happen, too--not even getting into their sexually assaulting the dancers on a near nightly basis.

    The legal issues may be clear cut on the books, but the police can decide who, if anyone, to arrest, and who the judge and jury believes is the deciding factor.

    I am glad to see that civilization exists in other parts of the country...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEGALLY, what can bouncers actually do in their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    The legal issues may be clear cut on the books, but the police can decide who, if anyone, to arrest, and who the judge and jury believes is the deciding factor. I am glad to see that civilization exists in other parts of the country...
    While I can easily imagine that there are states and areas where the local cops and prosecutors are more than happy to let bouncers maintain order in clubs with as little official LE involvement as possible, I doubt that there are many, if any, in which aggressive civil legal actions (suits) could not cause both the bouncers and the club owners extensive grief. The main reason that "head busting" can go on regularlly is probably that relatively few customers would be able and inclined to go that course, but if the wrong head happens to get busted, ....

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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