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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    ... for using every US military chopper in Asia to help out with the Tsunami disaster, not to mention untold millions of dollars in aid ...



    Allah off the Richter scale


    By Arnaud de Borchgrave
    THE WASHINGTON TIMES

    The killer wave that swallowed tens of thousands of Muslims was an act of Allah designed to punish the Christians. So went the convoluted logic of some Muslim imams in recent sermons from Saudi Arabia to the Palestinian territories.
    If it weren't for the diligent monitoring of Muslim clerics by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), Americans would be in the dark about the outpourings of dangerous drivel fed to devout Muslims gathered in mosques for Friday prayers.
    Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-Munajiid explained God's tsunami punishment of Christians stemmed from "the Christian holidays [that] are accompanied by forbidden things, by immorality, abomination, adultery, alcohol, drunken dancing and revelry. A belly dancer costs 2,500 pounds a minute and a singer costs 50,000 pounds an hour, and they hop from one hotel to another from night to dawn.
    "Then they spend the entire night defying Allah. ... At the height of immorality, Allah took revenge on these criminals. ... Allah struck them with an earthquake. He finished off the Richter scale. All nine levels gone."
    In the same vein, Sheikh Mudeiris, at a Palestinian Friday sermon in Gaza, said, "When oppression and corruption increase, the law of equilibrium applies. I can see in your eyes you are wondering what is the 'universal law of equilibrium.' This law is a divine law. If people are remiss in implementing God's law and in being zealous and vengeful for His sake, Allah unleashes his soldiers in action to take revenge."
    In Saudi Arabia, one of last year's measures to counter mosque-generated violence was a ban on imam's using the word "jihad," or holy warrior. But the content hadn't changed much without the banned word. Saudi cleric 'Aed Al-Qarni told the worshippers, "Throats must be slit and skulls must be shattered. This is the path to victory." He was reacting to the death of a brother "killed by the brothers of apes and pigs, the murderers of the prophets." In case there was any doubt, he was referring to the Jews of Israel.
    He then deplored lamented the lack of Muslim backbone: "One billion two hundred million nobodies. We are incapable of taking action, of being useful, of harming the Jews. The most people do today is to verbally protest over the TV channels or to demonstrate. What is the use of this? ... We must sacrifice people like Abd Al-Aziz Al-Rantisi, and Ahmad Yassin, and thousands of others. Houses and young men must be sacrificed. Throats must be slit and skulls must be shattered. This is the path to victory, to shahada and to sacrifice."
    Imam Al-Qani went to explain the "idolatrous" people of Vietnam, Cambodia and South Africa, "nations with no calling or divine law make sacrifices ... in people, blood and souls. All the more reason we should too, the nation of Islam."
    Saudi clerics have also urged Iraqis to resist "the American occupation of Iraq." They can urge jihad without the proscribed word for holy war.
    Saudi Sheikh Fawzan Fawzan said God's unlisted number informed him the tsunami was punishment for homosexual behavior and fornication over Christmas, even if the victims are Muslims. "All that's left for us to do," he said, "is to ask for forgiveness. We must atone for our sins, and for the acts of the stupid people among us. ... We must fight fornication, homosexuality, usury, fight the corruption on the face of the Earth, and the disregard of the lives of protected people."

    Arnaud de Borchgrave is editor at large of The Washington Times and of United Press International.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    That is not, as you clearly tried to imply with the topic header, reflective of the entire or even the majority of Muslim people.

    That is an extreem view held by a small group of Muslims, not unlike how the KKK is not reflective of the entire Christian religon.

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    The killer wave that swallowed tens of thousands of Muslims was an act of Allah designed to punish the Christians. So went the convoluted logic of some Muslim imams in recent sermons from Saudi Arabia to the Palestinian territories.
    Truly twisted thinking; I wonder if they got the idea from Jerry Falwell's 9/13/01 explanation of the WTC & Pentagon terrorist attacks:

    "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say: you helped this happen."

    Very similar sorts of "logic", it seems to me.

    Actually, of course, it is not the least bit novel. Clerics of many religions explain various natural (and man-made) calamities with "the gods are angry" theories, and invariably the divine anger is said/assumed to have been provoked by something or someone of which the clergy already disapproved. Muslims certainly have no particular claim on this ancient and none too subtle religious tactic.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Wwanderer, I knew Falwell was bad, but I had no idea he was this far 'off the scale'.

    We should pit our religious fanatics against theirs in the arena. Maybe they could kill each other off, in between the beer, truck, and shaving cream commercials.
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    DJoser, you have no idea how awful Falwell is untill you have lived in Lynchburg, Va. which is an otherwise nice small town but he is the "ruler" there and has his proganda machienery running strong with a high school and University of his very own right there in town. I don't think my school (VSA) had a clue when they set up shop there. LMAO ! The school is looked at like the devils work because it teaches kids to fine tune self expression.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Okay - I don't watch the news, so I could be mistaken about some things here. But. Didn't that little passage barely even mention Americans? And (again, not a big news watcher, so correct me if I'm wrong) isn't Saudi Arabia kind of far away from the afflicted zone? So, isn't demanding gratitude from them for aid sent to different countries, kind of weird? And didn't the Saudis give a fair amount of aid to the affected region? (I think that cnn.com actually has a table detailing government and private donations by country) I just checked and the Saudi gov't donated 30 mill USD and there was over 100 mill USD in private donations. So it doesn't even seem like your rabid cleric is particularly representative of either the government or the population to me. Also, isn't Saudi Arabia on fairly good terms with the US? Isn't it the muslims in Iran and Iraq that you're meant to be hating on right now? So, is it just me, or is this article fairly irrational from top to bottom?
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    Wwanderer, I knew Falwell was bad, but I had no idea he was this far 'off the scale'.
    There was actually a modest amount of national coverage of Falwell's outrageous comments at the time, and he drew so much criticism for them, even from some others on the extreme political right wing, that he issued a sort of halfway apology a few days later. Pat Robertson was also involved and made some similar, though somewhat less offensive, remarks.

    There would have undoubtedly been much greater news coverage and public outrage if the smoke had still not been rising above Ground Zero, the dead still being counted and the nation generally occupied by matters of far greater importance. You can read more details of what Falwell and Robertson said and the reaction at

    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors...ertson-wtc.htm

    or

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter7.htm

    or no doubt many other sites you could find via a bit of googling.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    According to a political scientist I know who is something of an expert on the topic, there are remarkably good analogies between ME Islamic fundamentalists with political agendas/ambitions and American Christian fundamentalists with political agendas/ambitions. The former are generally more successful, have more influence, in their region and culture than the latter do in ours, but this guy can quote you chapter and verse on a long list of remarkable parallels. Fundamentalist Islamic clerics, such as those quoted in the article Mel posted, no more speak for all Muslims or Arabs than Falwell and Robertson and their ilk speak for all Christians or Americans.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    That is not, as you clearly tried to imply with the topic header, reflective of the entire or even the majority of Muslim people.

    That is an extreem view held by a small group of Muslims, not unlike how the KKK is not reflective of the entire Christian religon.
    Ok that was good.

    worth at least 10 points.

    Really hate agreeing with ya,but dont mind giving credit where its due.

  10. #10
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    I'm singing the same tune here. If we shouldn't characterize Republicans for words of a fundamentalist, or characterize Democrats for words of an eco-terrorist, or characterize Israelis for a Web shrine to Baruch Goldstein, then we shouldn't characterize the Islam world for the rantings of a far-removed crazy cleric.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    true in all cases - but I would point out that christian preachers haven't called for wholesale slaughter of 'infidels' since the second Crusade, while more than a few imams are doing so.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    we shouldn't characterize the Islam world for the rantings of a far-removed crazy cleric.
    Except for one thing,all the Imams are doing is realying what the Quran says,and thats the word of islam.Lay in wait,kill all non belivers.
    So maybe we should revise it to read,only those islams who follow the teachings of the Quran should be exterminated?

    The religion was formed by generals,its a military religion born to rally the people in defense.
    The peace part is only for those who follow,everyone else gets shit on.

    Thats a true or false statement,there is no middle ground.No gray area so to speak.


    This is the same battle being faught thats been faught for 2000 years,only now,we have the upperhand and imo,should deal the deciding blow.

    If one religion is trying to erase all the rest,when is it time for all the rest to say,"hey,fuck you"and erase them??

    Ever?

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Maybe there is a comprimise for the weak hearted....

    Catholics only follow 5 out of 10 commandments and the islamic only follow part of the quran.

    Think that will ever happen on either side???

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    true in all cases - but I would point out that christian preachers haven't called for wholesale slaughter of 'infidels' since the second Crusade, while more than a few imams are doing so.
    I am a bit of two minds on this topic. To an extent I agree with Mel. People often describe the Arab world as "stuck in the 13th century", and from what I have seen and know of it, there is more than a bit of truth in that description. The ME/Arab nations do seem to be far more primitive and barbarous than the Western world, on average and in a reasonably objective sense. On the other hand, they are far from homogeneous, maybe even further than the West in many respects, and it does them no justice and no one, us or them, much good to characterize "the Muslim world" with the rantings of its worst and most vicious elements (as the title of this thread does). There are completely legitimate and (in some areas, at least) powerful progressive forces that are pushing the Arab world towards moderism and a more humane mold; aren't those the people we should focus on, encourage and talk to as much as possible?

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    but I would point out that christian preachers haven't called for wholesale slaughter of 'infidels' since the second Crusade, while more than a few imams are doing so.
    And more than a few rabbis in the east Mediterranean can call for wholesale slaughter of Arabs, but I would still not generalize all of Israel or Judaism for those words.

    BigGreen, I understand. We can generalize against people we don't like. Just find the ammunition to generalize.

    I'm in contact with a guy who has done a lot of good in Iraq, likes the Iraqi people, and finds gratitude with them. I've had neighbors from Iran, wonderful people. I have Muslim inlaws.

    I know I've been a pain, advocating that we not paint spectrums of people with the same color brush. If not generalizing is a principle, then it's not a sometimes-principle. There's a load of difference among a Taliban leader and a Moroccan merchant and an Iranian imam and an Indonesian rice farmer.

    If you Republicans, Libertarians, Democrats, Christians, dancers, customers, and so on can so easily take words and attribute them to people across dozens of countries, habits, and customs, then don't protest when you find yourself the target of stereotyping.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    I've personally heard more than a few republicans praise AIDS, claiming that God is smiting homosexuals. I would be willing to bet pretty much everything I own that I could find it in writing somewhere. I've personally heard more than few Americans recommend cleansing the earth of muslims - the phrase I particularly remember wanted to "pave from Afghanistan to Israel" - that one was in writing by the way. Above this posting we have a gentleman advocating "erasing a religion" - so I don't think that the violent rhetoric that opposes different cultures is specifically the property of muslims, Saudi or otherwise - although I would point out again that the war is against Iraq, not Saudi Arabia where the cleric lives.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    true in all cases - but I would point out that christian preachers haven't called for wholesale slaughter of 'infidels' since the second Crusade, while more than a few imams are doing so.
    Nah sorry, not true....they ( the extreem Chistian Right preachers) just do like Phelps for example and carry signs that say all gays should die and lets not forget his website with the names of people, including small babies who have been the victims of Aids saying they are burning in hell. He isn't the only one who "preaches" that crap and we all know it.

    I'd say that is pretty similar, if not equal to what SOME imams are doing.

    And I'd like to put in a bid/request that we don't get into yet another Bible vrs Quaran argument. Both have the good points and bad ones-- Both have been translated sooooo many times. Both are so often quoted out of text too. Isn't that debate kinda a waste of time at this point? If not, is it a distraction to the present discussion? Just a thought/request, so pease don't jump me if you disagree with my request..... it's just a thought I'm putting out on the table
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 01-10-2005 at 08:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    BigGreen, I understand. We can generalize against people we don't like. Just find the ammunition to generalize.
    Just wanted to add that not only do we generalize against people we do not like, but also against people we are afraid of and people whom we do not understand.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    I've personally heard more than a few republicans praise AIDS, claiming that God is smiting homosexuals. I would be willing to bet pretty much everything I own that I could find it in writing somewhere. I've personally heard more than few Americans recommend cleansing the earth of muslims - the phrase I particularly remember wanted to "pave from Afghanistan to Israel" - that one was in writing by the way. Above this posting we have a gentleman advocating "erasing a religion" - so I don't think that the violent rhetoric that opposes different cultures is specifically the property of muslims, Saudi or otherwise - although I would point out again that the war is against Iraq, not Saudi Arabia where the cleric lives.
    Exactly. Here's a link that covers that pretty well :

    And what do you know? Many of this particular type "Moral Majority" church member donated HEAVILY and voted for the sitting Pres.(and before anyone jumps on that- yes, I do know not all the Pres supporters are extremists like Phelps but many are too) and anyway, I support letting people choose so.... but I am quite concerned about what the "New American" seems to want for the U.S

    Another not so uncommon thing is these same "Moral Majority" members making comments that equate to kill them all in re: to the citizens living in Islamic nations. All the while damning the people they want to exterminate , er I mean 'neutralize' .... because of the violent actions of a very few Islamic people

    And then if that wasn't enough-- they advocate freeing the victims of Saddam (they say things what kind of person questions the War when there were rape rooms) yet seconds later the same people will call for those victims to be wiped out of existence because of where they live or how the pray.

    How that works out ( save them so we can kill them ) or how that seems logical to some is baffling to me. Not alot shocks or confuses me so baffiling me- well that's not an easy task.
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 01-10-2005 at 09:27 PM.

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    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    true in all cases - but I would point out that christian preachers haven't called for wholesale slaughter of 'infidels' since the second Crusade, while more than a few imams are doing so.
    True, although most Christian preachers live in parts of the world where full voting rights for both sexes, freedom of the press, and tolerance for minority religions is the rule, whereas most Muslim preachers live in parts of the world where people do not have such rights.

    I wonder if our own fundies in the Western world would show such restraint if these checks on their power were not in place. A literal interpretation of the Old Testament that some extremist preachers want would say absolutely not.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    Exactly. Here's a link that covers that pretty well : http://www.godhatesfags.com/fags/fag.html

    And what do you know? Many of this particular type "Moral Majority" church member donated HEAVILY and voted for the sitting Pres.(and before anyone jumps on that- yes, I do know not all the Pres supporters are extremists like Phelps but many are too) and anyway, I support letting people choose so.... but I am quite concerned about what the "New American" seems to want for the U.S
    How ironic that you make reference to Rev. Phelps here because tying him to GWB or the Republican party is absolutely ridiculous. He in fact taken numerous jabs at the Bush family. Current targets on his current upcoming Love Crusades list include "Hell Bound false prophet Billy Graham" and "New York's corrupt ex-mayor Rudy Giuliani".

    While his gay bashing and funeral picketing is known to many across the country, what is not well known outside of my home state is that Phelps is a Democrat. He's in fact run for governor here at least three times, and as recently as 1998, received 15,000 votes in the Democratic primary, an election that Republicans cannot vote in.

    As for more irony, since this thread started off with an article stating how Muslim fundamentalist quacks feel that the Asian tsunami was a "wrath of Allah" sort of punishment against sinful Western infidels, (and I had to go to the GHF website anyways), maybe it would be pertient here to show what Rev. Phelps and his church had to say about the tsunami.

    http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html#Tsunami

    Phelps is admittedly a nut even by Jerry Falwell standards, but there doesn't seem to be much difference in his interpretation versus that of the Islamic Mullahs presented in that news article.
    Last edited by doc-catfish; 01-10-2005 at 11:31 PM.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    I figure since we're posting links to nonsense, I'll post mine too. I found this guy when I accidentally joined the Raelians (don't ask). It's hard to explain that this is, in fact, not a satire. But it's not. This claims - quite seriously - that GWB (both of them, actually) are, in fact, large, shapeshifting lizards that feed upon human blood. Apparently the blood of blondes and redheads is best for maintaining their shapeshifting abilities - they are racist lizards!

    http://www.davidicke.com/
    http://www.reptilianagenda.com/menu.shtml
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    I figure since we're posting links to nonsense, I'll post mine too. I found this guy when I accidentally joined the Raelians (don't ask). It's hard to explain that this is, in fact, not a satire. But it's not. This claims - quite seriously - that GWB (both of them, actually) are, in fact, large, shapeshifting lizards that feed upon human blood. Apparently the blood of blondes and redheads is best for maintaining their shapeshifting abilities - they are racist lizards!

    http://www.davidicke.com/
    http://www.reptilianagenda.com/menu.shtml

    I've actually read one of David Icke's shorter books in the past, and had a brief discussion about his "extraterrestrial shapeshifting reptilian aliens from the 4th dimension" on another MB I belong to, within a peripheral context to another topic. But he still seems like a AAA nutcase to me! OTOH, whether or not he really believes his own theories, the term "crazy like a fox" also applies, given the amount of money I'm certain he is pulling in today!

    PhaedrusZ

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Well, at least they didn't blame on the Jew's this time......

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish
    maybe it would be pertient here to show what Rev. Phelps and his church had to say about the tsunami.
    http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html#Tsunami
    A brief quote from d-c's link:

    "Filthy Swedes went to Thailand - world epicenter of child sex traffic - to rape and sodomize little Thai boys and girls. 20,000 dead Swedes is to Sweden's population of 9 million as 650,000 would be to America's 290 million population. We sincerely hope and pray that all 20,000 Swedes are dead, their bodies bloated on the ground or in mass graves or floating at sea feeding sharks and fishes or in the bellies of thousands of crocodiles washed ashore by tsunamis. *"

    madgrab, I am sure that if you keep googling a while you can find someone blaming the Jews too; I mean if there are people out there who think it was God punishing the Swedes...

    From the links posted above by various people, I think that we can fairly conclude that the world has crazy and vicious nuts of any religious and ethnic "flavor" you can name, but again it seems obvious to me that we should be ignoring them and paying attention to the ones, also to be found in all religions and ethnic groups, who are sane and well-intentioned. Other than justifying one's own hate or rage, what is to be gained by focusing on the other side's crazies?

    -Ww

    * Note added - Wow, check out the links at the bottom of that page; I wonder what got that wacko so riled up re Sweeden...truly weird.
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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