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Thread: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

  1. #76
    Member HoldThePickle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    I would beg to differ and offer many continents as examples full of islamics who not only dislike Americans,but hate us.We top thier hit list.
    I am amazed that you feel you know more about a religion and a culture than someone such as myself who is a member that culture and was raised in that religion.

    Im sorry if my views offended you
    I'm afraid that I doubt that is true based on your comments, but I said what I wanted about this subject so...... I'll just end my comments by saying I hope someday you are free of the various discriminations that seem to haunt you.

    Last edited by HoldThePickle; 01-19-2005 at 06:08 PM.

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    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    I would beg to differ and offer many continents as examples full of islamics who not only dislike Americans,but hate us.We top thier hit list.
    The middle east is a no brainer.You can add most of north Africa to that and alot of european countries.
    Check with your local embassy for an updated list of ISLAMIC countries where its not safe to travel as an american.

    Why is that??

    Im sorry if my views offended you,i was trying to be general and not personal.
    I would't say Islamic countries are full of Muslims that hate America or Americans. The same psychos that terrorize us are the same terrorist that
    terrorize citizens of many Middle East and Asian countries. Remember all of the mass graves that were found in Iraq ??

    Why do you think so many Middle East, European and North African countries dislike the US ? Is this your personal feelings or do you have quotes from articles to back up that statement too ? We are all entitled to our feelings, I'm just asking out of curiosity.

    Thats very big of you to offer an apology. Generalizing is never a good idea. What if the thread was "Here's the thanks we get in the Christian world" ?
    Plus where is this "Muslim World" were talking about ? Last time I checked we all lived in 1 world. Did I miss something ?


    Lastly I want to also add that I am glad we can all debate without any drama getting started. I don't post to PP as much as I would like because of
    things I've read in the past.
    My new love...is me !

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Farrah_Holiday
    Lastly I want to also add that I am glad we can all debate without any drama getting started. I don't post to PP as much as I would like because of
    things I've read in the past.
    I hope you continue to post.
    We may disagree on things sometimes,but i have learned a few things from your post,on this site and others,and would continue to welcome reading your sane responses to my sometimes redneck/redstate/traditional/old fashioned opinions.

  4. #79
    Member HoldThePickle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    one last thing..... did you know that there are more people in the world who are of Muslim faith than there are Christians.

    I am pretty sure there are more people of Muslim faith than any other religion on the planet..... Kinda said that you think we all hate or want to kill you. It's not true, not at all. I hope someday you will come to understand that truth.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoldThePickle
    I am amazed that you feel you know more about a religion and a culture than someone such as myself who is a member that culture and was raised in that religion.
    Were you raised in America as a muslim or in the middle East??

    I think there is a difference.
    Do you?

    Today as an adult I am not a devote follower of any religion because I have found good in so many... I consider myself spiritual and attend an interfaith church.
    Your defending a faith,that you were "raised"in,yet you left the church as an adult??
    Im not asking you why you did it,i just didnt know that muslims attended interfaith churches??
    Are they still called muslims??
    CAN they still call themselves muslims in the islamic churches???
    I will admit,i dont know alot about interfaith churches.
    Can you tell me if they read from the Bible or the Quran,or both??
    I really dont know the answer and would like to know.

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    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1
    Well I dated a Muslim woman for about a half a year. There was no debating with her on religion, politics, culture, any of it. All of these things, in her country (Algeria), are based on Islam. From her (and her people's) perspective: Islam is perfect and infallible. Thus, their laws, culture, traditions, beliefs, etc. are all perfect and infallible. There is no room for debate that perhaps their religious teachings could be modernized, or updated to incorporate more modern views. The fault, because Islam is perfect, clearly lies with all other faiths. This thinking there prevents any change. The society, laws, etc. are stagnant and cannot change, because to do so is to invalidate the idea that Islam is perfect. Doing that is unthinkable, blasphemous, and ridiculous. It was maddening to discuss anything serious with her because of this thinking....and here's the best part: in her country, she was considered a liberal and an open-minded thinker!

    Just like Christians, Muslim has different views on their religous beliefs.
    I don't cover my hair,most of my freinds don't. We ( my conservative Muslim friends) debate about how Muslim women should dress. I don't wear clothes that cover my body...
    Oh, thats right I am a stripper...
    So obviously I have my own rules that I follow. Christians have their own views on the body and nudity too. Remember those are the people who are trying to get rid of porn and strip clubs.

    Here is an article from a Muslim woman that goes more in depth about Muslim women.
    www.submission.org/noha.html
    My new love...is me !

    Even the greatest authority does not, ultimately, know you as you know yourself.
    Jhuka

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    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    This is the right website.

    www.submission.org/noha.html
    My new love...is me !

    Even the greatest authority does not, ultimately, know you as you know yourself.
    Jhuka

    When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
    Maya Angelou


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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoldThePickle
    one last thing..... did you know that there are more people in the world who are of Muslim faith than there are Christians.

    I am pretty sure there are more people of Muslim faith than any other religion on the planet
    Yes I did know that muslims outnumbered the Catholics in the world.Thats why im glad the catholics have more money and bigger guns,or they would be extinct imo,from the same war thats been going on for 2000 years.
    I didnt know it was the largest religion though,I thought it was second with catholics as third.I forgot who the big winner is,maybe the Amish

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    Member HoldThePickle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    I was raised in both the US and various places over seas as a child. We settled in the US because of a job opportunity that was presented to my father.

    Yes, there are some differences ofcourse... as is the case with any two different cultures. There are +'s and -'s on both sides. But I can tell you that most Muslims do not hate American and most Muslims think terrorism and 9/11 are horrible and unacceptable acts . In my experiences, I find there are many more American who hate Muslims than the reverse.

    I did not leave the Muslim religion per say.... I think I already said why I do not identify myself with any one religion, but if you missed my explanation, it's because I have found good and value in the study of many different faiths.

    In an interfaith church usually a spiritual leader of a differnt faith speaks at each service. It is a great way to come to learn and appreciate the similarites as well as the differences.

    And it's not just Catholics that Muslims outnumber, its all Christian based faiths as well as the rest of the various religions.

    Amish huh, lol, cute

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    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    I hope you continue to post.
    We may disagree on things sometimes,but i have learned a few things from your post,on this site and others,and would continue to welcome reading your sane responses to my sometimes redneck/redstate/traditional/old fashioned opinions.
    I don't take anyone or anything that seriously. We are all entitled to our points of view. I would love to read to your response to the question I asked you in my previous post.
    My new love...is me !

    Even the greatest authority does not, ultimately, know you as you know yourself.
    Jhuka

    When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
    Maya Angelou


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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    like Mike Mike Moore. I think he is doing a great job of waking people up and getting them interested in important issues. Overall, I think there is way too much apathy in the world.

    I also know from personal experience, that the things quoted from the Islamic extremist media are NOT the way that most Islamic people feel.

    Its really too bad that some people round here cant separate the extremist views from the majority. The truth is a few people who call themselves Muslim hate America but most do not. I should know I myself was raised in a Muslim household. I also want to say that I was offended by some of the things Melanie and GreenMnm posted here.

    Definitely not meaning to offend further, but it should be pointed out that Michael Moore received a significantly different treatment after publishing his 'unpopular' material than did, say, Dutch film director Theo Van Goch (who was murdered by 'offended' Islamics).

    The problem that I have in separating the extremist views of certain Islamic groups versus the supposedly much more moderate 'majority' view of Islamics is that virtually NOBODY from the Islamic 'majority' is coming forward to condemn the actions of the extremists of their own accord. Not most leaders of Arab/Islamic countries - not most Islamic religious leaders - not even most American liberals (who are expending their efforts lately trying to secure US civil rights for captured islamic terrorists facing Guantanamo tribunals). Granted that a few Arab/Islamic leaders have been forced into doing so (example Saudis after receiving death threats from islamic extremists plus unknown behind the scenes pressure from US gov't/CIA, Palestine's Abbas after Israel locked down Gaza border etc.) but IMHO this is not the same as a freely expressed position. Thus in my own mind at least there is a great deal of doubt and precious little evidence in regard to just how moderate the position of the 'majority' if Islamics actually is !

  12. #87
    Member HoldThePickle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    LOL ! I can't seem to get away from this website now that I am a member.

    I thought I'd add the basic "who we are" about interfaith churches for GreenMnm sice he mention he was unfamilar with it. Here ya go :

    an interfaith church is an ecumenical church that honors all spiritual paths that demonstrate love and compassion. We honor spirituality more than religion; conscience more than dogma. We are not a religion but rather a community of spiritual seekers expressing our spirituality in a variety of ways.

    Melonie,
    I am sorry but your statement that not a single Muslim leader has spoken out against terrorist acts is very, very incorrect. I do supose one must be willing to listen to hear those voices though......

    here's some links : http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm
    http://www.m-a-t.org/
    http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html
    http://www.mvp-us.org/

    http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm - this one shows statements made by Muslim leaders from all over the world

    here is the first on the page:

    “The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”


    it was signed by:
    Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:

    there are more statements like this too.
    Last edited by HoldThePickle; 01-19-2005 at 06:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Farrah_Holiday
    Christians have their own views on the body and nudity too. Remember those are the people who are trying to get rid of porn and strip clubs.
    They are??
    What is the muslims view on stripping??

    I always though it was most churches,not just the catholics that disaproved?

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    I am sorry but your atatement that not a single Muslim leader has spoken out against terrorist acts is very, very incorrect
    I said virtually ... implying that yes there are a few such reports in the news media but they are vastly outnumbered by reports involving much more extreme positions (as I previously posted). I also pointed out that some of the 'fresh' positions being taken by a few Muslim leaders are clearly the result of duress, as they clearly conflict with earlier positions taken before the duress was applied !

    For example, here's Abbas refusing to rein in Islamic Terrorists only 4 days ago ! It's really difficult to accept the premise that Abbas received a personal divine prophecy in the last 3 days to change his opinion, versus an Israel's border lockdown plus Sharon giving the Israeli army a free hand to deal with Palestinian terrorists !



    IMHO sudden turnarounds like this only add to the credibility problems of Islamic leadership when they do go on record condemning terrorist acts (while doing little or nothing significant to stop future terrorist acts). And trying to use Yassin/Hamas as an example of a group condemning Islamic terrorist acts is hypocritical to the point of being offensive.

    The bigger question of course is what everyday Islamic peoples think of all this ...
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-19-2005 at 07:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Farrah_Holiday
    Why do you think so many Middle East, European and North African countries dislike the US ? Is this your personal feelings
    I grew up around the world.I have seen it first hand.
    Do we at least agree that there is an aniti american mindset in many countries,held by many people??

    I think the reasons are endless and are different in different countries.

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    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    They are??
    What is the muslims view on stripping??

    I always though it was most churches,not just the catholics that disaproved?
    Oh you're funny !! LOL
    My new love...is me !

    Even the greatest authority does not, ultimately, know you as you know yourself.
    Jhuka

    When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
    Maya Angelou


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    Member HoldThePickle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    I said virtually ... implying that yes there are a few such reports in the news media but they are vastly outnumbered by reports involving much more extreme positions (as I previously posted). I also pointed out that some of the 'fresh' positions being taken by a few Muslim leaders are clearly the result of duress, as they clearly conflict with earlier positions taken before the duress was applied !

    For example, here's Abbas refusing to rein in Islamic Terrorists only 4 days ago !

    http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=966
    Please note the various links I left you in the other post, I think I added them while you were typing.

    The reason (IMO) that you don't hear more anti-violence statements from Islamic leader here in the US is because the current leadership (Bush and many other Republicans) here in the US WANT you and other like you to fear and hate Muslims. Such emotions from voters supports the present agenda of the President...... Which is not a war on terror (again imo) but something(s) else entirely. They want you to hate me and others like me. It gives them strength. It is no different with people such as Bin Laden who want people in the middle east to hate americans... it gives them strength and support for their agenda.

    As I see it, Bush and people such as Bin Laden are more alike than different. They both lie to their people, they both kill innocents in the name of those lies. And they use proganda to gather support.

    I might remind you here that Bush's war has killed thousands upon thouseand more innocents than those that died in 9/11. Every one of those deaths is one too many in my mind. And I just don't see the logic in doing exactly what the terrorist did to the US to other countries. It just doesn't make any sense at all.
    Last edited by HoldThePickle; 01-19-2005 at 07:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Definitely not meaning to offend further, but it should be pointed out that Michael Moore received a significantly different treatment after publishing his 'unpopular' material than did, say, Dutch film director Theo Van Goch (who was murdered by 'offended' Islamics).
    These were crazies who did these acts. Sane Muslims did not agree with that morbid act. Just like most Christians don't agree with their fellow Christian blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors who preform abortions.
    My new love...is me !

    Even the greatest authority does not, ultimately, know you as you know yourself.
    Jhuka

    When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
    Maya Angelou


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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoldThePickle
    did you know that there are more people in the world who are of Muslim faith than there are Christians. ... I am pretty sure there are more people of Muslim faith than any other religion on the planet.....
    Not that it is particularly important to any of the main points of this thread, but the above is incorrect. You can find the data in many places, but here is a nice clear presentation:

    http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

    Christianity is the largest single religion by a substantial margin. However, there are more Muslims than Catholics, the single largest Christian demonination; perhaps you misremembered some statements comparing Catholics to Muslims?

    In a way there are surprisingly few major religions. As shown in the pie chart at the above web site, 90% of the planet's population either belong to one of its four largest basic religions or are "nonreligious", and by the time you get down to, say, the world's 10th largest religious group, you are talking about something like the population of a single (very) large city.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    God/dess lestat1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Farrah_Holiday
    These were crazies who did these acts. Sane Muslims did not agree with that morbid act. Just like most Christians don't agree with their fellow Christian blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors who preform abortions.
    Hmmmmm.
    An election tomorrow, all 900 million muslims in the world, Osama vs. the western leader of your choice. Any chance Osama wouldn't win in a landslide?

    He and what he represents may not be liked by all, but given the choice between say, the ideals of Kofi Anon and the ideals Osama Bin Laden, I think those 900 million would vote dramatically in favor of Osama. I, of course, have little direct information and just what I've pieced together from everything else in order to lean towards that opinion. I'd like to see polling that indicates otherwise; it would be reassuring and give me a rare optimistic break in my default pessimism.


    I read the article on Women in Islam. It sounds like in its purest form, Islam is far from being implemented well in any of the nations we tend to think of as "Islamic." From where does the resistence to change come from then? Do you think it is as simple as fear of the government's reprisal for revolt, should it fail? Then why is America not seen as savior for offering the power to hand them the true, Islamic nation they must be seeking? Are the groups who have twisted Islam to promote extremism really that good at marketing their message that they've fooled the masses of people throughout the middle east? I think there's a missing piece (or eighty) here....
    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
    omg, why is it so huge?!! lol lol

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoldThePickle
    LOL ! I can't seem to get away from this website now that I am a member.
    Its an addiction.Just sit back,relax,keep all hands and feet inside the vehical at all times,and enjoy the ride.

    I thought I'd add the basic "who we are" about interfaith churches for GreenMnm sice he mention he was unfamilar with it. Here ya go :

    an interfaith church is an ecumenical church that honors all spiritual paths that demonstrate love and compassion. We honor spirituality more than religion; conscience more than dogma. We are not a religion but rather a community of spiritual seekers expressing our spirituality in a variety of ways.
    Ok that one i had to look up!!!!!!

    Main Entry: ec·u·men·i·cal
    Pronunciation:
    "e-ky&-'me-ni-k&l
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Late Latin oecumenicus, from Late Greek oikoumenikos, from Greek oikoumenE the inhabited world, from feminine of oikoumenos, present passive particle of oikein to inhabit, from oikos house —more at
    Date: circa 1587
    1 : worldwide or general in extent, influence, or application
    2 a : of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches b : promoting or tending toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation
    - ec·u·men·i·cal·ly
    /-k(&-)lE/ adverb


    Im not sure i understand the faith.
    Is it reccognized by the catholic church or the muslim church?
    And what is the view of homosexuals from the church?
    I thought the "christian"stance was its an abomination??

    Is this an "everytyhing/anything goes"church??

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    I grew up around the world.I have seen it first hand.
    Do we at least agree that there is an aniti american mindset in many countries,held by many people?? I think the reasons are endless and are different in different countries.
    I have spent a very substantial portion of my adult life traveling the world and have seen most of it, in some sense, and my perception of the situation is rather different.

    However, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that you are correct for the moment. What conclusion should we draw if many people in many different countries hate America(ns) for an "endless" number of reasons? Or, analogously, if you as an individual found that many people you met in many different contexts disliked you for a whole host of different reasons, what should you conclude?

    That it is all their fault, delusion or moral shortcoming? Would it be worth considering the possibility that at least a substantial portion of the problem might lie closer to home?

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1
    It sounds like in its purest form, Islam is far from being implemented well in any of the nations we tend to think of as "Islamic."
    Is Christianity "in its purest form" well implemented in any culture or society? How many calls for the US to "turn the other cheek" did we hear from even the most sincere and devout Christian groups (or leaders) following 9/11, for example?

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    About Interfaith churches for BigGreen...

    I'm pretty sure there are different kinds of interfaith churches. I go to a Unitarian Universalist, which is accepting of basically all faiths, paths, and truths. We have services with Jewish ritual, Pagan ritual, poetry, and good thoughts. The principles that we follow are:

    1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
    2. Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
    3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
    4. A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
    5. The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
    6. The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
    7. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

    Our church is full of christians, jews, buddhists, hindus, pagans, atheists, agnostics, and even a few muslims.

    Just FYI. :-)



  25. #100
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    That it is all their fault, delusion or moral shortcoming? Would it be worth considering the possibility that at least a substantial portion of the problem might lie closer to home?

    -Ww
    No way,I think we are more to blame then them!

    Our forein polociy for the last 100 years has been anything but"nice"to many countries.
    But i think thats been changing for the better over the last generation.

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