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Thread: Guard says Orders Called for Abuse at Abu Ghraib

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    Lightbulb Guard says Orders Called for Abuse at Abu Ghraib

    FORT HOOD, Texas — A former guard at Abu Ghraib prison testified Thursday that intelligence officers wanted detainees roughed up there, and that Spc. Charles Graner Jr. did not take part in a number of the abuses he is accused of committing. But the defense witness, former Spc. Megan Ambuhl, admitted under cross-examination that she had had a brief sexual relationship with Graner and remains a close friend.

    "And you don't want your friend to go to jail?" asked Maj. Michael Holley, the prosecutor.

    "No, sir," she answered.

    Ambuhl, who made a plea deal with prosecutors regarding her own actions at Abu Ghraib, also said she lied to investigators who sought to search her personal computer for photos and other evidence of abuse.

    Graner, 36, is the first soldier to be tried in the Abu Ghraib scandal and is alleged to be the ringleader of the abuse. He is accused of conspiracy to abuse detainees, assault, dereliction of duty and committing indecent acts, and faces up to 17 1/2 years in prison if convicted.

    The defense maintains that military and civilian intelligence agents controlled Graner's area of Abu Ghraib, and that Graner had to follow their orders to soften up prisoners for interrogation.

    Ambuhl testified that intelligence officers directed the prison's guards to rough up and sexually humiliate detainees, and that the guards were praised for their efforts.

    On one occasion, she said, an intelligence officer known as Steve told guards to "break" a prisoner known as Al Qaeda, who was believed to have valuable information.

    "Steve told us that we were doing a good job and that breaking Al Qaeda would save a lot of lives," she said.

    Another time, she said, two military intelligence officers told Graner to physically abuse a prisoner in a shower.

    On Wednesday, the court heard testimony from an Iraqi detainee who admitted he simply could not be sure whether Graner was following orders to beat him.

    "I was continually being beaten all the time, I don't remember," Mohanded Juma said. "All I care about is to save myself."

    Juma's spotty memory fit a frustrating pattern for the defense in its effort to lay blame for the abuses on intelligence officers.

    Witnesses called in Graner's defense tended to offer less-than-certain testimony about who was in charge of what at Abu Ghraib. On occasion, their testimony became fodder for prosecutors.

    Master Sgt. Brian Lipinski, one of Graner's superiors at Abu Ghraib, was put on the stand to testify that interrogators were pleased with the defendant's ability to soften up prisoners for questioning.

    But Lipinski also told the court that Graner repeatedly disobeyed orders.

    Among other things, Graner is accused of stacking naked detainees in a human pyramid and later ordering them to masturbate while other soldiers took photographs. He also allegedly punched one man in the head hard enough to knock him out, and struck an injured prisoner with a collapsible metal stick.

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    Default Re: Guard says Orders Called for Abuse at Abu Ghraib

    Gosh im tired of hearing about this,its a PC joke if you ask me.
    Some low ranking sucker is going to take the fall for the PC sins of thier intel officers.We wont even be seeing the commander of all the prisons in Iraq at the time take a fall,she was reserves and not reg army.She had NO,NONE,Nadda,expierience in running a prison,let alone 20+ makeshift ones all at once.ALL at once being an important issue in my book.
    We took 100's of thousands of prisoners in less then a month,and this is the only problem we have??Not to shabby if you ask me.Job well done.
    It isnt like they cut off someones head,like the enemy does.

    Having men stacked naked in a pile is NOT physical abuse!Thats pure psycoligical,and it isnt abuse!It called interigation.

    These soldiers(not prison guards)were never trained.The entire prison system was made up of weekend warriors,not even reg army!
    We train men to interogate prisoners,and the guys we trained to do it use deprivation,humiliation,and a zillion other methodes to get the answers they NEED to win this war and save lives!!!AMERICAN LIVES!!!


    We follow the geniva convention rules to a tee,no other opposing military has shown us that same respect.
    I say fuck that!!!!
    Lets play by the same rules they play by.Right now they are counting on the fact we will.Thats why heads are being chopped off and dead soldiers get dragged thru the street.

    I think its time to abandon the rules,only the USA and our allies follow it anyways,so whats the point??
    When we capture the ENEMY<THE BAD GUYS<THE TERRORIST,the guys killing OUR boys,if some intel officer thinks he knows something,anything, that might save just 1 american life,I say we turn the cameras off and get the info,the same way they get it from our POW's.
    Im not saying open another Hanoi Hilton(god bless John McCain and what he endured)but i am saying i have heard NOTHING yet that is over and above what im comfy with.

    I feel sorry for the guys who will end up paying for this because the public is watching.
    They did nothing really wrong,the intel officers were not out of line,and the lady in charge of it all,hell,she did the best she could IMO.
    I hope these soldiers get returned to duty with no marks on thier records.

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    Default Re: Guard says Orders Called for Abuse at Abu Ghraib

    Having men stacked naked in a pile is NOT physical abuse!Thats pure psycoligical,and it isnt abuse!It called interigation.

    These soldiers(not prison guards)were never trained.The entire prison system was made up of weekend warriors,not even reg army!
    We train men to interogate prisoners,and the guys we trained to do it use deprivation,humiliation,and a zillion other methodes to get the answers they NEED to win this war and save lives!!!AMERICAN LIVES!!!


    We follow the geniva convention rules to a tee
    uhm no we did not follow the Rules of the Geneva Conv-- that is the problem.

    FYI the Geneva Conv. rules of prohibited acts include:

    c. )Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

    I'd say forcing people into sexual positions and taking photos falls under that.

    Then ofcourse there are photos and reports of strapping electric cables to the sexual organs of people that violates other prohibited acts listed in letter A.)
    Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture

    here's the info if you don't want to believe me:

    I'm glad my father didn't live to see our military being destroyed by the greed and powertripping of the current admin. He loved his country and was proud to have defended it but he would be deeply ashamed to be affilated with todays US government. I think he might have suffered more watching this nation turning away from everything he put his life on the line for in Germany and Korea than he did from the cancer that killed him. I'm glad he was gown prior to all this mess. My father was a proud, proud American and I am thankful that he taught me to beaware of the blessing as well as the evils that lie in government power. My heart aches for what has been lost in the US- credibilty and worst of all honor
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 01-15-2005 at 12:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Guard says Orders Called for Abuse at Abu Ghraib

    Abu Ghraib is an aberration and an example of what the absence of leadership at the command level creates (that reservist general had her papers handed to her), but it serves a valuable lesson.

    Public "outrage" aside (since it comes generally from the familar quarters), anyone who knows anything about intelligence knows that you don't derive real, actionable information from people when you torture them; they just say whatever to make the pain stop.

    That said, many of the things that leftists qualify as torture--sleep deprivation, uncomfortable restraints, sensory deprivation or overload, et al--are not torture and are indeed effective tools for extracting information.

    One of the most commonly used means of creating more compliant suspects at Gitmo is very simple: withholding cigarettes from prisoners. A couple days without their fix, and interrogation sessions become much more productive if you reenter the drug into the equation.

    Making suspects look forward to interrogations--be it for better food or drink, room temperatures, light/darkness, etc--is how you get them to talk, that and developing relationships with their interrogators.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Guard says Orders Called for Abuse at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    We follow the geniva convention rules to a tee...
    or so we would have you believe...


    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Lets play by the same rules they play by.
    Screw that - makes it much more difficult for us to operate with the effectiveness and efficiency we're capable of when those kinds of rules are enforced!


    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    When we capture the ENEMY<THE BAD GUYS<THE TERRORIST,the guys killing OUR boys,if some intel officer thinks he knows something,anything, that might save just 1 american life,I say we turn the cameras off and get the info,the same way they get it from our POW's.
    And, with the exception of this charade (which we've been forced to put on because we fucked up and got caught), whatever gave you the idea that we're not?


    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    I feel sorry for the guys who will end up paying for this because the public is watching. They did nothing really wrong,the intel officers were not out of line,and the lady in charge of it all,hell,she did the best she could IMO. I hope these soldiers get returned to duty with no marks on thier records.
    Aja... this is every bit as transparent as it appears, but in order to maintain the fiction there's a "cut-out" at every level and we'll lay the blame off at the lowest level we possibly can - which means these poor SOB's are going to get hammered.


    By the way, here's an interesting (related?) riddle for you to ponder:

    Civil War, WWI, WWII... big POW camps in our rear areas
    Korea, Vietnam... markedly smaller facilities
    Iraq... prison facility at issue is one of a mere handful

    "Rules" haven't changed... how'd we manage it???
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
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    Default Re: Guard says Orders Called for Abuse at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    [/size]My heart aches for what has been lost in the US- credibilty and worst of all honor
    Hello! Awake now?

    Meaning, the only thing that's been lost is your wide-eyed innocence and naievete... the kind of U.S. "credibility" and "honor" to which you refer has only existed in the form of an erroneous belief among most Americans re rest of World's perception of us for quite some time now; once we started overthrowing governments, installing and/or backing brutal dictatorships, alternatively using "human rights" as a sword and a shield when it suited our purposes and turning a blind eye when we had nothing to gain directly, and engaging in any number of "illegal" and undeclared wars covertly funded through a variety of widely destructive methods, beginning in the 1950's (and steadily continuing on to date), pretty much everybody else in the World saw through the crap we've been selling our own people and stopped putting much, if any stock in U.S. "credibility" and "honor."
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
    - Luke
    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
    - Boss, re Luke

    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

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    Default Re: Guard says Orders Called for Abuse at Abu Ghraib

    At wartime, you do not expect to have peace. The "mistreatment" of the so-called prisoners is laughable. You cannot expect the testosterone to be running at an all-time high to keep alive and then expect the guys to be "kind and gentle" when they catch and detain the very people who were shooting at them. "Excuse me, kind sir...would you please put down your grenade launcher? There's only 2 of you and 198 of us...so you're kind of out-numbered and we'd hate to shoot you. Thanks."

    The only things that piss me off about this war is not the treatment of the prisoners, it's the court-martialing of the Americans who were DOING THEIR JOB IN A HIGHLY HOSTILE AND WARTIME SITUATION. The other thing is that had Georgie not been so bent on pushing his own agenda which had NOTHING to do with fighting terrorism...none of this would be happening.

    I agree with GreenBeret, though...it's time to put away the school history books and really read what has actually been happening in the world.

    For instance...the US is so respectable when it went to the South Pacific and forcibly moved the tribes off the islands that were going to be used to test the atomic bomb? That's really nice of us...I mean, we could have just nuked them...

    WWII...we knew about the mass of Jews that were being slaughtered...and we did nothing until Pearl Harbor was bombed. Never mind that the history books call us heros for "ending the war of all wars" but that we never had any interest in getting involved until the bully hit us first. Really heoric. It's kind of like watching the weak kid getting pummelled by the school bully and just standing there watching.

    TigerLily, our government has been about lining their own pockets for a long time now...long gone are the days where honor, respect, decency, heroism, and love can be used to describe our government. They only make the decision that will make them more money, or give the impression that they are one to contend with. Laughable is the only word that is left to "kindly" describe them now.

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    Default Re: Guard says Orders Called for Abuse at Abu Ghraib

    I guess I just do not see forcing people into sexual positions and photgraphing them as "doing their job".

    I agree with the military court and police on this one. It's good to see that not the entire miltary structure has been infected with Bush disease.

    The soliders who took part in these actions deserved to be CR-ed and I think the 10+ years Graner was sentanced to is just and fair.

    My father spent many years in combat, leading platoons and was even a POW himself. I have been taught and told about war and I know that this is not the way a non Bush lead US military opperates. I don't believe for one split hair of a second that there would be a US prision abuse scandle if Bush was not King, opps I mean President.

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