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Thread: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Think maybe we're taking this ridiculous policy just a little too far for our own good?

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ry_linguists_5
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    I thought it was a given that people who are homophobic have major inteligence issues

    But this is really stupid becuase the military needs as many linguist as they can get. As was noted in the article here:

    'Experts have identified the shortage of Arabic linguists as contributing to the government's failure to thwart the Sept. 11 attacks. The independent Sept. 11 commission made similar conclusions.'

    Ofcourse what do you expect from a prez who supports discrimination even on the federal level ? It seems obvious to me that he and those like him would rather put the world in more danger than accept a gay person as an equal in the grand scheme of humanity

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by NurseGoodbody
    I thought it was a given that people who are homophobic have major inteligence issues
    What about people who's religion tells them being gay is wrong,or the people who just dont agree with it??
    So except homosexuality or your inteligence challenged?

    I think i will go with the S.A.T. scores,even they would be a better indicator imo.


    But this is really stupid becuase the military needs as many linguist as they can get. As was noted in the article here:
    This is a true statement.But even if half the troops there now spoke the lingo,we would STILL need more.
    So its one of those BS press statements IMO.
    'Experts have identified the shortage of Arabic linguists as contributing to the government's failure to thwart the Sept. 11 attacks. The independent Sept. 11 commission made similar conclusions.'
    This is silly imo.
    More anti prez press.
    If everyone of these guys were still in the military,do you really think 9/11 wouldnt have happened??

    What experts??
    (BTW an "expert"can be found to tell you ANYTHING you need to further your agenda)
    Ofcourse what do you expect from a prez who supports discrimination even on the federal level ? It seems obvious to me that he and those like him would rather put the world in more danger than accept a gay person as an equal in the grand scheme of humanity
    I thought discrimination was illegal???
    How is he doing this and getting away with it???
    Care to give an example??

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    Member NurseGoodbody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it sounds as if you're trying to challenge me or something.

    Can't someone just post their opinions, is that not ok ? Seriously man, maybe chill a bit - going by your screename this should do the trick

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    If you can't have your opinion challenged, don't post here.

    Thanks.
    I smell fresh meat on the political board.

    There is little patronizing on this board, NurseGoodbody.

    Hopefully you will find it more refreshing to be considered on your ideals and thoughts than patronized on your body parts. It can be confusing in the beginning I suppose.
    Last edited by Deogol; 01-14-2005 at 07:01 PM.

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    Senior Member BrunetteBombshell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    i have to say that i personally am against the whole anti-gay policy, however, i was just thinking about it and there may be some justification for it. it all goes to the relationships issue. in the military, men and women are seperated. with them being seperated, they can't have relationships, and the drama that goes along with relationships. if you are at war, the last thing you want is members of your platoon not getting along because of some petty relationship drama. if people who are gay are allowed to serve together, there is always the chance that attractions may develop, leading to possible relationships and relationship drama, leading to the team not being able to function as well as it should. since you can't put all the gay men in one platoon seeing as there would be an increased chance of relationships devleoping, your only safe bet would be to put them with the women, where there would be no attraction. BUT, if it was known that all gay men served with women, then there would also be the chance that some sleezy straight men(i can think of a few) would say they were gay so they could be with the women, therefore creating a possible setup for a relationship. anyway, i've never really thought of that before, just as i was reading the article, so i apologize if it doesn't seem very well thought out because its not. any thoughts?

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    Senior Member BrunetteBombshell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    sorry, i forgot to include the lesbian angle(im really tired)....but anyway, it can go either way(obviously)

    ~*Now shorty, she in the club, she dancin' for dollars, she got a thing for that Gucci, that Fendi, that Prada, that BCBG, Burberry, Dolce & Gabbana, she's feeding fools fantasies, they pay her cause they want her*~

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    Member NurseGoodbody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    If you can't have your opinion challenged, don't post here.

    Thanks.
    uhm, well... its nice to meet you too Maybe I wasnt clear. When I wrote challenge I meant pick a fight. I tried to keep my reply lightweight, you may have noticed the funny M&M photo. But I see the attempt fell short of friendly enough for sombody 'round here ....

    There is little patronizing on this board, NurseGoodbody.

    Hopefully you will find it more refreshing to be considered on your ideals and thoughts than patronized on your body parts.
    LoL ! I see that , but thanks for the heads up anyway
    the drama that goes along with relationships. if you are at war, the last thing you want is members of your platoon not getting along because of some petty relationship drama.
    Now there is a very fair point.

    However in this case, I think our need for linguist out-weighs the risk of relationship drama. It's one thing on the ground in battle, but I would think most linguist work on their own and in offices translating stuff from tape or documents. I understand there is hours upon hours of tape connected to 9/11 that is years old that has yet to be translated. And as was stated earlier:

    'Experts have identified the shortage of Arabic linguists as contributing to the government's failure to thwart the Sept. 11 attacks. The independent Sept. 11 commission made similar conclusions.'

    so I mean, how smart is it to go around firing perfectly good linguists just because and only because they are gay ? If it was a matter of drama they could have been transfered.

    The smart thing for any military is to use all the enlisted to the best of their abilities. Dropping linguists when you are in need of linguists isn't effective or smart way to opperate any military US or otherwise.

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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrunetteBombshell
    i have to say that i personally am against the whole anti-gay policy, however, i was just thinking about it and there may be some justification for it. it all goes to the relationships issue. in the military, men and women are seperated. with them being seperated, they can't have relationships, and the drama that goes along with relationships. if you are at war, the last thing you want is members of your platoon not getting along because of some petty relationship drama. if people who are gay are allowed to serve together, there is always the chance that attractions may develop, leading to possible relationships and relationship drama, leading to the team not being able to function as well as it should. since you can't put all the gay men in one platoon seeing as there would be an increased chance of relationships devleoping, your only safe bet would be to put them with the women, where there would be no attraction. BUT, if it was known that all gay men served with women, then there would also be the chance that some sleezy straight men(i can think of a few) would say they were gay so they could be with the women, therefore creating a possible setup for a relationship. anyway, i've never really thought of that before, just as i was reading the article, so i apologize if it doesn't seem very well thought out because its not. any thoughts?
    Doesn't work this way at all... with the exception of ground combat units, men and women serve together in almost every unit in the military - and with the exception of barracks, are not separated at all. Instead, the military has strict rules regarding relationships - and while relationships do occur and there have been a few instances of serious problems, for the most part soldiers follow orders and the rules against such relationships are just one more set of standing orders to be followed.

    The problem that most seriously worries the military in this area is the very REAL problem of trying to integrate openly gay men into the combat units... based on past experience, many will be seriously injured or killed, especially when the unit enters a combat zone. And, given the socioeconomic/cultural background of a large majority of the soldiers in the ground combat units, the military knows it will be a very long-term problem.
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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by NurseGoodbody
    I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it sounds as if you're trying to challenge me or something.

    Can't someone just post their opinions, is that not ok ? Seriously man, maybe chill a bit - going by your screename this should do the trick
    Heya,
    Im not raggin on ya,i just dont agree with what your saying and offer the counter to it.
    Didnt mean to offend,just debat-n.

    Great pic,still not sure how the other colors in the bag keep finding my stash!

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    What about people who's religion tells them being gay is wrong,or the people who just dont agree with it??
    So except homosexuality or your inteligence challenged?
    I tend to think that if people can't/don't apply critical thinking skills to their own beleif systems there's a problem, whether it's intelligence, dependence, denial, whatever. Just my opinion, tho...

    If people do apply critical thinking and still come up with something I disagree with (like Melonie's thoughts about marriage) I will still respect them as much or more than someone who agrees with me but doesn't know why (and "the Bible says so" is not a reason).

    Lena



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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    about the religon question....

    people can follow their religious beliefs but they are not supposed to force their religious beliefs on others.

    Just because one religon doesnt eat a particular food like meat doesn't mean that everyone else should not allowed to eat meat.

    People who say that gays are against God or whatever and therefore shouldnt be allowed to say enter a legal marriage are doing the same thing as someone who doesnt eat beef because it is against their religon saying no one else should be allowed to eat beef.

    it just doesnt make sense to use religon as an opt out for homophobia. Homophobia is what is is .... a mental illness as a result of hate and ignorance.

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by NurseGoodbody
    it just doesnt make sense to use religon as an opt out for homophobia. Homophobia is what is is .... a mental illness as a result of hate and ignorance.
    I dunno,the majority of the world,for the majority of history, can be called homophobic then,and that, what i think, doesnt make sense.

    Where in history has the homosexual lifestyle been excepted by the masses??
    Has the question of marriage "rights"ever come up before in history that i dont know about??

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Where in history has the homosexual lifestyle been excepted by the masses??
    Has the question of marriage "rights"ever come up before in history that i dont know about??
    Oh boy - did you open yourself wide up on the question of when homosexuality was accepted during history. I will let others answer that.

    Regarding marriage - marriage as we know it is a relatively young thing. Multiple wives, concubines, 14 year old brides, etc. were the "norm" for thousands and thousands of years before this whole "definition" of marriage business came up.

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    Oh boy - did you open yourself wide up on the question of when homosexuality was accepted during history. I will let others answer that.
    lol Ok the greeks i guess.
    Im still wondering about something in the last 1-2 thousand years and would welcome examples of where being openly homosexual was excepted by social standards.
    Regarding marriage - marriage as we know it is a relatively young thing. Multiple wives, concubines, 14 year old brides, etc. were the "norm" for thousands and thousands of years before this whole "definition" of marriage business came up.
    Odd how all the examples you listed were between men a women.

    Can you name any husband-husband examples??

    I cant because i dont know of any that existed.

    Being gay isnt a new thing,saying homosexuals have a "right"to get married is.

    Has there ever been a religion that agrees with homosexuals thats 100 years old?
    Again,none that i know of.

    Im willing to listen to whatever someone can provide,i just dont think it exists.

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    Member NurseGoodbody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    You forgot the Romans, The Egyptians too..... also doesnt The Episcopalian church allow gay preachers ? I may be wrong about the particular branch of the chritian religon, but I know at least one of them has gay preachers

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by NurseGoodbody
    You forgot the Romans, The Egyptians too.....
    Yes,like the greeks,thousands of years ago and hard to prove the real social outlook on the subject.
    Maybe the fact that all religions born from those time periods condemed homosexuals would be an indicator?


    also doesnt The Episcopalian church allow gay preachers ? I may be wrong about the particular branch of the chritian religon, but I know at least one of them has gay preachers
    This is in our lifetime,under the political gay "rights"movement of the last 20 years.And half if not more broke from that church from what i remember because of it.

    My point was simple,and not ment to offend.

    There has never been a society where homosexuals have been openly excepted in history,and no place where men have been able to marry men,until now.

    That would make history,and most of the people in it of"=Less intelligence"and i disagree with that statement.

    people are screaming because its a right for gays to get married.
    Where has it ever been a "right"or even legal??

  18. #18
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    I knew that same-sex relationships have been accepted in Japan for a long time. I was curious about others.

    From Wikipedia, following a discussion of Greece:

    "Continuing the ancient tradition of male love in which Ganymede, cup-boy to the gods, symbolized the ideal boyfriend, Moslem - primarily Sufi - poets in medieval Arab lands and in Persia wrote odes to the beautiful wine boys who served them in the taverns and shared their beds at night. Among the Moslems the practice of pederasty was widespread, if not universal (as documented by Richard Francis Burton, André Gide and many others), and has survived into modern times. It continues to surface despite efforts to keep it quiet, as it did after the American invasion of Afghanistan, when the same-sex love customs of Kandahar, in which adult men take on adolescent lovers, became widely known.

    Cities in northern Italy, Florence and Venice in particular, were renowned for the widespread practice of same-sex love, engaged in by a majority of the male population and constructed along the classical pattern, as documented in recent studies by Michael Rocke and Guido Ruggiero.

    In Asia same-sex love has been a central feature of everyday life, in China since at least 600 BCE, and in Japan for over one thousand years. Such relationships were typically pederastic and marked by differences in age and social position. However, the instances of same-sex affection and sexual interactions described in the Hong Lou Meng (Dream of the Red Chamber, or Story of the Stone) seem as familiar to observers in the present as do equivalent stories of romances between heterosexuals during the same period. For more information see Gays in China and Gays in Japan.

    Similarly, Thailand had no concept of homosexuality until the late 20th century. Kathoey or ladyboys have been a feature of Thai society for many centuries. They were men who dressed as women. They were generally accepted by society without much question, although a family was often disappointed if one of their sons became a Kathoey. The teachings of Buddhism, dominant in Thai society was accepting of a third gender designation. (My note: Buddhism is accepting of a lot of things, including other religions.)

    In Central Asia, on the Silk Route, the two traditions of the east and the west met, and gave rise to a strong local culture of same-sex love. This was centered around the bacha (a Turkik Uzbeki term etymologically realted to the Persian bachcheh, catamite), typically an adolescent male entertainer who donned female attire and makeup and sang and danced erotic songs. These Muslim bachas were trained from childhood and carried on their trade until their beard began to grow. Though the tradition eventually succumbed to Stalinist repression and western morality, early Russian explorers were able to document the practice.

    In many societies of Melanesia same-sex relationships are an integral part of the culture. In some tribes of Papua New Guinea, for example, it is considered a normal ritual responsibility for a boy to have a relationship as a part of his ascent into manhood. Many Melanesian societies, however, have become antagonistic towards same-sex relationships since the introduction of Christianity by European missionaries.

    The sexual orientation of pre-modern figures is a topic of intense controversy. It may be accepted, for example, that the sex lives of historical figures such as Alexander the Great, Hadrian, Virgil, Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Plato, Christopher Marlowe (who coined the term 'quean') and William Shakespeare included or were centred upon relationships with people of their own gender. Terms such as "gay" or "bisexual" might be applied to them in that sense. But many regard this as risking the anachronistic introduction of a modern social construction of sexuality that is foreign to their times. For example, their societies might have focused upon the sexual role one took in these encounters, namely active, passive, both, or neither, as a key social marker. This particular system of designation is currently the norm in many areas of Latin America.

    It could be noted, on the other hand, that when evidence that a particular historical figure's sex life pointed exclusively toward an attraction to people of an opposite gender describing them as heterosexual rarely evokes such controversy. This tendency among Western historians, to view heterosexuality as an acceptable norm while regarding arguments that a particular historical figure may have been gay as controversial or requiring more evidence than a claim of opposite-sex attraction might warrant, is often attributed to homophobia on the part of historians and is referred to within queer studies as heteronormativity.

    During the last few decades, in part due to their history of shared oppression, gays in the West have developed a shared culture, although not all gays participate in it, and many gay men and women specifically decline to do so. (See gay pride.)

    In 1973, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychiatric Manual of Psychiatric Disorders (DSM) removed homosexuality as a mental disorder from the manual.

    ***

    All bolding is mine.

    I'm not advocating for or against homosexuality or same-sex marriage or anything else. I'm just reporting the history.

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    BigGreen, you might find the book "Sex in the Evolution of Monotheism" enlightening. Short and to the point too.

    I think you can almost say that all non-monotheistic religions have accepted same sex relationships.

    Lena



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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    lol Ok the greeks i guess.
    Im still wondering about something in the last 1-2 thousand years and would welcome examples of where being openly homosexual was excepted by social standards.

    Odd how all the examples you listed were between men a women.

    Can you name any husband-husband examples??

    I cant because i dont know of any that existed.

    Being gay isnt a new thing,saying homosexuals have a "right"to get married is.

    Has there ever been a religion that agrees with homosexuals thats 100 years old?
    Again,none that i know of.

    Im willing to listen to whatever someone can provide,i just dont think it exists.
    My point was that the definition of marriage has been changing through out the ages.

    One cannot say it has always been between a man and a woman because it has not always been. Sometimes it has been between a man and many women - sometimes between a man and a child... or even children.

    These definitions we have thrown away... perhaps for the better - at least for us these days.

    Simply because something "has not been done" - does not mean it "should not be done."

    ----

    Now that I see the posting of others regarding other cultures, I realize that we probably censored our own understanding of other cultures same sex relationships. I am sure many publishing houses felt it non-relevent to teen education - and then to radical for adults unless they specially looked for it.

    A sanitization of our knowledge - to continue to believe what we have always believed I suppose.

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by NurseGoodbody
    Ofcourse what do you expect from a prez who supports discrimination even on the federal level ? It seems obvious to me that he and those like him would rather put the world in more danger than accept a gay person as an equal in the grand scheme of humanity
    Pity that this is actually Clinton's policy.


    Originally written by BigGreenM&M
    people are screaming because its a right for gays to get married.
    Where has it ever been a "right"or even legal??
    As someone (Jay, I think) already pointed out, just because a thing has always (and that's debateable in this instance) been done so, doesn't mean it has always been the greatest idea. Conversely, just because a thing has never been done does not make it by definition a bad idea. One need only look to American-style government to prove that; a pioneering foray into the unknown at the time and a wildly successful idea in a stunningly short period of time.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Doesn't it seem lilke a given that people who obsess over other people's love lives and irrationally exclude qualified, desirable employees solely on the basis of consensual and legal relationships are unintelligent? It does to me. As per "agreeing" with homosexuality - what does this even mean? I don't "agree" with my Aunt's relationship (heterosexual), but I certainly can't get her fired because of it, make it illegal, prevent her from getting married, nor should I be able to. Where does your "agreement" come into someone else's sex life? If one finds homosexual sex unpalatable, I would personally recommend that one finds something else to occupy one's thoughts. Read a magazine (of a non-homosexual nature). As per whether or not homosexuality is historically accepted - a ha. This is not a simple issue of Allowed/Disallowed. Anyone who has read their history (and I am not talking exclusively about greeks) knows that man-on-man love had a different social context, different social meaning and different social impact than today. It might surprise some of you to know that sexual relationships between women seem to have been widely accepted in early America - to the point that when female friends visited married friends their husbands would sleep on the couch, and leave the bed to the women! Letters that were circulated among families and friends spoke of intense jealousies of husbands and boyfriends, and missing physical intimacies. In 19th century Britain, there were many, many English gentlemen who lived with their - ahem - secretaries. For 20 years. My point is that these relationships were absorbed naturally back into society - even in the Victorian period. And there would have been no question about these men (obviously this would not apply to the women) being able to serve in the British military. And, hey. Seemed to work out pretty well for them, didn't it?
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Doesn't it seem lilke a given that people who obsess over other people's love lives and irrationally exclude qualified, desirable employees solely on the basis of consensual and legal relationships are unintelligent?
    Yes, it does.

    As to what does "not agreeing with homosexuality" means-- I'd like to hear that answer.

    I don't agree with alot of things other people do but I don't feel they need to be excluded from employment, marriage or parenting.

    It is certianly not intellegent for the military to get rid of people with skills that the armed services need very badly because of what consenting adults choose to do in bed or who consenting adult choose to express their love for and spend their life with.

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    This all comes down to one's personal belief on the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

    One side of the fence believes it isn't discriminatory as long as it remains within the confines of the military. After all, be it a man or woman, heterosexual or homosexual- once you elist, you become a soldier. Soldiers are trained and desired to become controlled instruments to be given a set of basic rules and conduct, and from there follow orders. Soldiers aren't expected to be human... and more often than not, are asked to dispense of all humanity in the call of duty. Sexual preference doesn't enter into this equation nor is it welcomed- even if this is unreasonable to ask for. But then again, it's very hard to put reason on a role that asks people to perform murder/violence against others they don't even know just because they are handed a weapon and pointed at some alleged "enemy" ... without question.

    The other side of the fence believes basic humanity and personal rights should exist anywhere, regardless. If someone is homosexual, he or she should have the right to express this facet of their persona with complete freedom and impunity from any ill will or ramifications. As Greenberet put it- it's a well known fact that homosexuals are persecuted within the ranks of the military. To witness this is a travesty of human rights.

    While I'm outraged that individuals were seen unfit to serve and removed from duty by expressing something as simple as sexual preference, I also find it hard to find any basis of reasoning behind an organization that commonly sends in 100's of fellow American citizens into situations where it's expressedly preconceived that a quantifiable number of them will be killed. The strong desire to remove ANY form of sexual friction or pressure from such an organization also makes sense.
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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by polecat
    This all comes down to one's personal belief on the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

    One side of the fence believes it isn't discriminatory as long as it remains within the confines of the military. After all, be it a man or woman, heterosexual or homosexual- once you elist, you become a soldier. Soldiers are trained and desired to become controlled instruments to be given a set of basic rules and conduct, and from there follow orders. Soldiers aren't expected to be human... and more often than not, are asked to dispense of all humanity in the call of duty. Sexual preference doesn't enter into this equation nor is it welcomed- even if this is unreasonable to ask for. But then again, it's very hard to put reason on a role that asks people to perform murder/violence against others they don't even know just because they are handed a weapon and pointed at some alleged "enemy" ... without question.
    You seem to have a very low impression of military personel.Thats a shame imo,being that they are responsible for everything you have,and will have.
    They are expected to act "Human".
    Many actually do a good job at it.


    Did you know that a male or female officer cant have sex with a male or female enlisted person??
    They will go to JAIL!!!!

    The military tells you who you can and cannot have sex with.

    people make it sound like every other soldier is gay,i dont happen to agree with that.(been there,seen for myself)
    Im guessing gays in the military average lower then the national average of gays in mainstream civilian life.
    Low 10%'s???

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