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Thread: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

  1. #26
    God/dess lestat1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Hmmm, the military is a tricky example because it's a little outside of the U.S. Constitution, service members don't have constitutional rights.I think their policy against gays has less to do with the feelings of the higher ups, and much more to do with the feelings of the lower downs (grunts). As a general or policy maker on an academic level, I would want qualified people period, regardless of sexual orientation. On a "real world" level, the military is comprised of young people, often from particular demographics, that won't be so accepting of serving with homosexuals. That creates a problem, best solved by educating the troops, or easily solved by not allowing openly gay personnel.

    It's not the generals or policymakers that need to be more open-minded, it's the troops.
    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
    omg, why is it so huge?!! lol lol

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1
    or easily solved by not allowing openly gay personnel.

    It's not the generals or policymakers that need to be more open-minded, it's the troops.
    Not easy to solve,the generals and policymakers were force fed gays in the military via the USA's legal system and standards.
    If you think the "troops"will except it,ever,i think your wrong.


    All these posters talking about "rights",none have mentioned the "right"of females to be "infantry".
    Another"right"that doesnt exist in the military.

  3. #28
    God/dess lestat1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Not easy to solve,the generals and policymakers were force fed gays in the military via the USA's legal system and standards.
    If you think the "troops"will except it,ever,i think your wrong.


    All these posters talking about "rights",none have mentioned the "right"of females to be "infantry".
    Another"right"that doesnt exist in the military.
    ? No...I don't. I think we aggree with each other, but I'm too confused now to know for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
    omg, why is it so huge?!! lol lol

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Not easy to solve,the generals and policymakers were force fed gays in the military via the USA's legal system and standards.
    If you think the "troops"will except it,ever,i think your wrong.


    All these posters talking about "rights",none have mentioned the "right"of females to be "infantry".
    Another"right"that doesnt exist in the military.
    There are plenty of troops back during racial integration who would "never" accept it. And perhaps they didn't and they did not re-enlist or completed their commission. I think the situation is very simular.

    When I went to college, I ended up being roommates - not house mates - roommates with a first class flaming queer. (Yes, I bought a lotta pajamas.) This didn't bother me as much as I first expected. What bothered me most was his "flaming queer" aspect and not his sexual aspect. I suspect I have encountered other homosexual men who I wouldn't even expect it.

    I too believe that women should be "in combat." It is pretty friggin clear these days they already are in combat simply being a water truck driver.

    I also believe it is time for women to register with selective services, but that is a whole nother thread.

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1
    ? No...I don't. I think we aggree with each other, but I'm too confused now to know for sure.
    lol

    You rock!!!!!!
    i dont care if we agree or not!!!!

    roflmao!

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    There are plenty of troops back during racial integration who would "never" accept it. And perhaps they didn't and they did not re-enlist or completed their commission. I think the situation is very simular.
    apples and oranges,night and day.
    Very different IMO and the fact that most agree with what i think,is why a man is a man in the military,doesnt matter what color skin.
    Talking about gays in the military is a different story in itself IMO.
    When I went to college, I ended up being roommates - not house mates - roommates with a first class flaming queer. (Yes, I bought a lotta pajamas.)
    why the PJ's??
    Your skating the edge on being called a homophobic,you have been warned.
    I too believe that women should be "in combat." It is pretty friggin clear these days they already are in combat simply being a water truck driver.
    I do NOT agree with females being in combat.The fact they are even "in country"is due to political bullshit that has allowed the same "dont ask,dont tell"mentality over the last 15 years.
    Females should NOT be in a combat MOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Its not only my beliefs,its also the law!!!!!!!!
    The military cant under its PC correctivness,but i can...
    I dont think they should be "in country".
    I also believe it is time for women to register with selective services, but that is a whole nother thread.
    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

    Please dont start this thread!!!!!

    Talk about a shit storm!!!

  7. #32
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    One cannot say it has always been between a man and a woman because it has not always been. Sometimes it has been between a man and many women - sometimes between a man and a child... or even children.
    Had to point this out.

    Yes marriage has always been between a man and a woman,even with your examples.It may be with a few females,or one to young IMO to get married,but its always been between a man and woman.

    Please show me somewhere in history where a man can marry a man under its religion or social standards.


    Ya cant.

    Cause its never happened before.


    These times,are the only times.

  8. #33
    Member AvaAngel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Humankind is becoming more advanced as time goes by and that is why homosexuality is becoming more & more accepted.

    There are countries who have legal gay marriage. We even have a whole state here in the US where its legal.We have laws being passed to include gay people in discrimination protection and anti gay adoption laws being struck down.

    There is a strong embrace of the homosexual culture in the U.S. Tons of tv programing such as Will & Grace, Queer Eye , The L Word, Queer as Folk as well plenty of acceptance in movies, music etc.


    Like it or not, homophobes are losing this battle and logic, knowledge and understanding are winning !

  9. #34
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    BigGrn, the point of my Wikipedia citation was to address this point that you stated:

    There has never been a society where homosexuals have been openly excepted in history

    Can we at least agree that there have been societies, any number of them, where homosexuality has been openly accepted?

    Now, to be fair, your corollary point to that - that homosexual relationships have, until today, never been state-recognized marriages - is interesting. For all I know, it's valid. It's not interesting enough to research it, but it makes me wonder.

    It doesn't prove anything. No other country until us had had a nuclear submarine fleet or assembly-line cheap automobiles or blue jeans. Oh, well, we got all that anyway.


    You made another point that I'd like to address:

    What about people who's religion tells them being gay is wrong,or the people who just dont agree with it??

    Yup. There have been people of faiths or beliefs or logic that do not match our own. Just because their thought processes don't fit with what we find acceptable now doesn't mean that they're not intelligent. The examples are endless. Many brilliant people have been wrong about their attitudes. That doesn't make them stupid, just wrong.

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    The Sacred Band, which was the 300 man strong elite of the Theban Army, was composed of 150 homosexual couples. There were no exceptions. In order to be a member of this most glorious and prestigious organization, whose members were honored and respected as much as any in ancient Greece, you had to be gay.

    For anyone who doesn't know, Thebes wasn't just an Egyptian city, but for a long time one of the most powerful city-states in Greece--powerful enough to decisively defeat the Spartans twice.
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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    The Sacred Band, which was the 300 man strong elite of the Theban Army, was composed of 150 homosexual couples. There were no exceptions. In order to be a member of this most glorious and prestigious organization, whose members were honored and respected as much as any in ancient Greece, you had to be gay.
    I wonder who ya had to blow to get into that unit??
    Was there a secret handshake??

    Do you think gays faught better then the rest of the Theban military or is it possible,that unit was where they put all the gay guys to keep them OUT of the reg army corps?

    I will admit i have never heard of this military unit.But in all the military history i have ever seen,homosexuals were not respected,or excepted.

    I guess I was looking for an example POST A.D..


    I guess my point was,and proven, by all the ancient examples given,there has NOT been an openly gay community that has ever been excepted by the majority.

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    Member AvaAngel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    I'm afraid I have to disagree. There have been before and are now openly gay communites that have are accepted by the majority. There are countries who have legal gay marriage. We even have a whole state here in the US where its legal.We have laws being passed to include gay people in discrimination protection and anti gay adoption laws being struck down.

    There is a strong embrace of the homosexual culture in the U.S. Tons of tv programing such as Will & Grace, Queer Eye , The L Word, Queer as Folk as well as many movies.


    The majority of our society does accept homosexuals. It is the MINORITY who are homophobic.

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    BigGrn, the point of my Wikipedia citation was to address this point that you stated:

    There has never been a society where homosexuals have been openly excepted in history

    Can we at least agree that there have been societies, any number of them, where homosexuality has been openly accepted?
    No we dont agree Jay.
    Wiki huh???Never heard of it.(willing to see info)

    Im asking for a sociaty UNDER 1000 years ago where Gays could be openly gay and excepted,or where men could marry men.
    If this cant be done by anyone(because it doesnt exist)then would you at least agree with my point?
    Doesnt matter if you agree with homosexuals or not and it doesnt make you homophobic if you agree with a historical FACT.
    No place,at any time,has openly excepted homosexuals.They have always been the minority and have always been shunned by the majority.

    The top 5 religions of the world,today,and 1000 years ago,all say being homosexual is wrong.
    True or false?
    To answer correctly doesnt mean you are homophobic,just factual.

    Now, to be fair, your corollary point to that - that homosexual relationships have, until today, never been state-recognized marriages - is interesting. For all I know, it's valid. It's not interesting enough to research it, but it makes me wonder.
    Its more then valid,its fact.
    Its a boring fact,and wont be very interesting reading if you do decide to research it.
    You made another point that I'd like to address:

    What about people who's religion tells them being gay is wrong,or the people who just dont agree with it??

    Yup. There have been people of faiths or beliefs or logic that do not match our own. Just because their thought processes don't fit with what we find acceptable now doesn't mean that they're not intelligent. The examples are endless. Many brilliant people have been wrong about their attitudes. That doesn't make them stupid, just wrong.
    Lol
    so every known religion,and all its members during its history,have all been "wrong"??
    The majority of the world is "wrong".Every Race and Religion has been wrong for thousands of years?

    It has only been about 20 years,with this country and a very FEW other countries,legal systems that have allowed someone to openly say they are homosexual.
    If it were not for these CURRENT laws,homosexuals would get the same treatment they have gotten thru history in every society.
    Im not saying its right or wrong or if i agree with either side,im just saying its a fact.

  14. #39
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    No we dont agree Jay.
    Wiki huh???Never heard of it.(willing to see info)
    Go ahead. I posted the whole relevant portion and the link. Post #18 in this thread.


    Im asking for a sociaty UNDER 1000 years ago where Gays could be openly gay and excepted,or where men could marry men.
    If this cant be done by anyone(because it doesnt exist)then would you at least agree with my point?
    First, it was any civilization other than Greece. Then it was A.D. Now it's under 1,000 years old. Are we narrowing the field purposely?

    But within the last 1,000 years: Arab lands, Persia, northern Italy, China, Japan, Thailand, central Asia, Papua New Guinea, many areas of Latin America.

    So, no, I cannot agree.


    No place,at any time,has openly excepted homosexuals.They have always been the minority and have always been shunned by the majority.
    That's better - "no place, at any time." Provably incorrect. I'm sorry, but that's the fact.

    The top 5 religions of the world,today,and 1000 years ago,all say being homosexual is wrong.
    True or false?
    I assume you mean Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu, and ... and ... and what?

    Anyway, the answer is "false." Both Buddhism and Hinduism have tolerance for homosexuality. (While Islam and Christianity disagree with homosexuality, one could also argue that the "embrace and reform the sinner" attitudes in those religions promote tolerance even while believing it's wrong.)

    so every known religion,and all its members during its history,have all been "wrong"??
    The majority of the world is "wrong".Every Race and Religion has been wrong for thousands of years?
    You make it difficult to agree with you. I was agreeing that a given person can be intelligent and still have intolerance for homosexuality (which is the question posed by the thread). There's been plenty of bright but intolerant people over the millenia.
    Last edited by Jay Zeno; 01-18-2005 at 10:44 AM.

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    Member AvaAngel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Those who interpret scripture to justify the persecution of gay men and lesbians are misusing the Bible in exactly the same way that segregationists and anti-Semites manipulated scripture to justify the oppression and victimization of blacks and Jews.

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    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    That is not correct. There are many passages in Scripture that are very specific in their forbiddance of homosexuality. There are no corresponding passages regarding Jews or blacks in minute, point-blank detail. Therefore, someone thumping the Bible to support a policy against blacks or Jews is using interpretation (liberal at that). Someone who thinks being gay is wrong, is simply reading it like it says.
    Last edited by Lena; 01-18-2005 at 10:51 PM.
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith
    That is not correct. There are many passages in Scripture that are very specific in their forbiddance of homosexuality. There are no corresponding passages regarding Jews or blacks in minute, point-blank detail. Therefore, someone thumping the Bible to support a policy against blacks or Jews is using interpretation (liberal at that). Someone who thinks being gay is wrong, is simply reading it like it says
    I am sorry Lilth but I think you are wrong about that... Here's a great example of what I was talking about:

    OVER 200 BIBLE SCRIPTURES COMMANDING AND DEMANDING RACIAL SEGREGATION AND DISCRIMINATION. Describing The Crime of Race-Mixing Demonstrated

    Punishable Only By The Death Penalty, Mandated By

    Our King Jesus Christ .
    What I am getting at here is that the bible passages are misused and taken out of context just often as passages from the Quaran

  18. #43
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Well, wait. Lilith said there's no minute, point-blank detail against blacks or Jews. The passages that those wackos cite are not minute, point-blank, on-point passages. You have to really s-s-s-t-r-e-t-c-c-c-h-h-h to equate the ousting of the Canaanites to some divine racism.

    However, Leviticus (Old Testament) and Paul (New Testament) do make specific, point-blank condemnations of homosexuality.

    I'm not defending or attacking anything. It's just what they say.

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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvaAngel




    I am sorry Lilth but I think you are wrong about that... Here's a great example of what I was talking about:

    OVER 200 BIBLE SCRIPTURES COMMANDING AND DEMANDING RACIAL SEGREGATION AND DISCRIMINATION. Describing The Crime of Race-Mixing Demonstrated

    Punishable Only By The Death Penalty, Mandated By

    Our King Jesus Christ .


    that comes from :





    Are you kidding me???
    Did you read the rest of just the front page of this website??

    These are radicals who are reading into the bible the things that support thier own agenda.This is not what MOST catholics belive or interpret from the bible.
    The paragraph on the front page should have given it away right off the bat.

    White supremist group.

  20. #45
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Before I permanently disband from this thread:
    a)the bible has no opinion on girl-girl. Does that mean that gay women should be allowed in the military? (Seriously - look as hard as you want. You will not find a passage that deems women/women sex inappropriate)
    b)I'm sure whoever here has not read the bible will just lie about it anyway, so I won't order anyone to read it (I haven't read it cover to cover incidentally). But you may have noticed (or heard) that the bible is very self contradictory. That is because it was written over a fair span of years (like, hundreds) in different languages. Using as proof that anything is "bad" is kind of lame, in and of itself. Because the bible comdemns eating seafood in terms just as strong as the one with which it condemns homosexuality. "Their blood shall be upon them" etc, etc. Using the bible to pass laws or policy is blatant discrimination. Anyway - read the interaction between David and Solomon which is extremely homoerotic, and depicted as "good". Don't expect pornography - there will no "and then Solomon touched his hot throbbing member".
    c) a society in the past thousand years where men are allowed to marry men? Canada? Will that do? Belgium? How about that?
    Now for this question to make sense one has to consider the "traditional" PURPOSE of marriage - which is usually (stress, not inevitably, but usually) patrilineage. It is to establish what the "patriarch" owns, and who will inherit. This is what marriage historically FOR. Therefore, "gay marriage" may have been deemed unnecessary. In our society, of course, there are many other reasons to get married. Not to mention, there are various contracts and laws - insurance, estate, immigration - that can only apply to those under a spousal contract. So - inherently different purpose there.

    However. Many - most, potentially all societies have accepted same sex couples cohabitating, living their lives together, financially supporting one another and sharing bedrooms. As for military history - Alexander, dude. Seriously - for most of military history homosexuality was a verb, not a noun, and would be regarded as private, not bearing on their service. As for military troops accepting gay guys - most of the guys that I met weren't these slack jawed, moron yokels who were overly threatened by gay guys - they certainly weren't threatened by gay women. They seemed fine with the guys they worked with that were gay - interestingly enough they didn't think it had much to do with them. They seemed normal to me - I think you are seriously underestimating them. For someone who is all "pro-military" you seem to have the idea that all the MEN who join the military are provincial, small minded bigots.

    As for people reading the bible and using it for their own agenda - hmmm. I'm not pointing any finger. I'm just saying - a conversation about gays in the military just got awfully... biblical.
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  21. #46
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Paul has a passing and disapproving mention about lesbianism, but that's it, as far as I know.

    If one wants to argue about the authenticity or accuracy or contradictions concerning the Bible, it's an easy argument to make. I was just citing the Bible as it's commonly accepted. But whether or not it should be commonly accepted is another thing, and you can make a pretty solid case against its authority, based on re-interpretations, customized rewritings, and arbitrary acceptance, or not, of any number of books and passages.

    Good point on marriage and its traditional purposes.

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Oops...misplaced a post. Relocated.

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    Featured Member Lilith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Jay is correct; Ava read my last wrong. Sure, some jackass can find 200 Scripture which he swears supports his wild-assed opinion. Anyone with a few functional grey cells and enough determination can manage that. It's extremely long, textually vague, inconsistent, incomplete, been translated into mush and comes in more variations than Baskin-Robbin's has ice cream. There is a difference, however, in molding that putty to conform to your own beliefs versus taking your belief from very specific passages; ie, no matter how much people might wish it, there are no scriptures saying, "Thou shalt not have skin of a dark hue, as that is abomination to the Lord your god." But there are passages specifically forbidding homosexuality outright. To say that basing a prejudice for homosexuality on Scripture is the same as a Bible-based prejudice against Jews and/or blacks is incorrect.

    On second thought, let me qualify that. If the English translations can be trusted, then homosexuality in and of itself is not a sin. Scripture forbids the specific act of man-on-man sex, not the mere fact of being gay. But it is quite blunt that it is not allowed and should be punished, blah blah blah, whereas it is not so with Jews/blacks.
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    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    You seem to have a very low impression of military personel.Thats a shame imo,being that they are responsible for everything you have,and will have.
    Wow! Talk about a radical misinterpretation of the given text!

    I'm not sure how you made the connection of "this is the dedication level a soldier has to give" to having a low impression of military personnel.

    A compassionate soldier in times of warfare is one that hesitates, questions orders and will get killed. There is nothing "low" about making it clear what our armed forces are expected to do. It's a position of reverence and honor to make that kind of committment.

    This is why these kinds of topics are difficult to apply to the military. What soldiers are expected to do and what is ingrained in them from their training falls outside the lines of what someone wearing tie-dye and protesting on the steps of a city capital could possibly understand.
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    Member AvaAngel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homophobia = Less Intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith
    To say that basing a prejudice for homosexuality on Scripture is the same as a Bible-based prejudice against Jews and/or blacks is incorrect.
    I am sorry but I really think you are wrong about that. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

    Just a wild guess but you voted for Bush this year didn't you


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