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Thread: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    long but insightful ...

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    You must know about this site:

    Some of the undercover video's of ANSWER and the like are truely frightening the kind of world they would like to create.

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    These guys are awesome. I actualy bought one of their shirts about a year ago.

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Funny, I always thought we cared most about raising everyone's taxes to fund homosexual death squads out to kill Christian babies to feed to Al Qaeda.

    Silly liberal me...

    Okay, now for my REAL respose now that I've wiped the foam away from my mouth...

    Liberals don't care about the human rights atrocities in China? We don't care about the Sudanese? We didn't care about Nicaragua?

    What planet is this douchebag living on?

    Conservatives "freed" the Afghans? That's news to me! Last I heard warlords were still running amok in that lawless country and opium output was at an all-time high! But then we liberals LOVE our smack, so it's a moot point, right!

    Melonie, you love to cite "revisionist history" so you cannot for one second tell me that Vietnam was about freeing the Vietnamese. The Red Scare, the CIA murdering the democtratically elected but socialist Chilean president Allende to install that murdering sack of shit Pinochet? You call THAT liberation? The tenets of TRUE communism were just so offensive to GOP free-market worship that it sent our nation into a killing frenzy!

    Our "liberator" president? Iraq is a boondoggle, a quagmire, or as I prefer to call it, a massive fucking mess.

    And about the "Che Chic", yes, I think it's stupid that stoner college kids wear shirts with his image on it without even knowing what it means. But IMO a lot of these kids are actually apolitical because they have NO political leanings in particular, let alone budding Commie pinkos.

    Melonie, have you even BEEN to Cuba? Because I have. In theory, Communism has its benefits (this will undoubtedly be taken out of context in the future and come back to haunt me, but...). In Cuba every citizen has the right to top-notch (no, really) health care. The elderly are cared for and children receive good educations (more in math and engineering, stuff like History there varies a bit from our version). Unfortunately, there are food shortages and rations there. I saw people on the street in smaller towns begging for SOAP, not money and in the last few years especially, Castro's been brutal in oppressing opposition.

    The Cold War was NOT about liberating people. The vast majority or wars in American History, whichever party they were started by, were about money. MONEY. Plain and simple. This was in Iraq is about MONEY. Not about freeing brown people that Bush Sr. left to rot back in '90. Iraq, and Baghdad in particular, is even MORE dangerour for the precious Iraquis that conservatives supposedly care so much about and our troops have presided over the theft and trashing of priceless and irreplaceable. archeological artifacts. The infrastructure is shot to hell, and we're just creating a vicious cycle of combat that shows no sign of abatement in the near future.

    Until we move on to Iraq, the next likely recepient of our benevolent "liberation"...
    Last edited by NinaDaisy; 01-19-2005 at 01:15 AM.
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Customer writing here: What bothers me is that conservatives and liberals are not really talking to each other. We have a lot more in common than we know. But I believe it does help certain segments of the government to keep us apart. Which segments? Truthfully, I am not sure.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    I'm still laughing after checking out protestwarrior.com !!! I can't decide which t-shirts I should stretch out, though ...

    "Communism has only killed 100 million people, let's give it another chance", or

    "Criminals for Gun Control, why should we risk the chance of being injured on the job", or

    "except for ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism, war has never solved anything"

    but I was struck by the irony of

    "The IRS Tax Code, now THAT's a living, breathing document" LOL

    of course the real 'grabber' is only available as a bumper sticker ...

    "The ACLU - We don't hate religion, We just hate Christianity" !!!!

    .

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    What bothers me is that conservatives and liberals are not really talking to each other. We have a lot more in common than we know.
    Conservatives have been talking to liberals for the past 70 years. Liberals haven't been listening ! It's only now that liberals have lost influence in the oval office plus both houses of congress that they're all of a sudden interested in talking !

    Yes we have a lot in common - we both have to pay outrageous taxes enacted by liberals, we both are prevented from exercising our full constitutional rights to gun ownership and unrestricted use of private property as legislated/interpreted by liberals, and we're both mortgaging our children's futures !

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    God/dess Mr Hyde's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    I consider myself a moderate, but I find it strange that a person like Melonie would align herself with a political bent that includes a large contingent that would have her arrested and imprisoned for what she does for a living.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    but I find it strange that a person like Melonie would align herself with a political bent that includes a large contingent that would have her arrested and imprisoned for what she does for a living
    Actually, the "criminalization" of exotic dancing is a non-partisan effort by local politicians for the most part, with members of either party prepared to drag dancers before a judge if it serves their political purposes.

    On a deeper level, I'm actually much more concerned by the "liberalization" of exotic dancing resulting in fundamental changes in the industry which I don't agree with. Take for example the club scene in uber-liberal San Francisco, where the DA and Mayor are more or less on record as having no interest in pursuing prostitution busts in strip clubs. As a result, the "mileage factor" in SF clubs has risen to ridiculous levels, making it extremely difficult for girls who merely want to dance to earn decent money. If you look to Europe as an even more extreme example of the ultimate consequences to the exotic dancing industry of unbridled liberalism, you'll see that some 10%-20% of the market consists of top shelf class act Hostess clubs (which will only hire the very best of the best girls), and some 80%-90% of the market consisting of (quasi)legal sex clubs, where sex on stage and sex with customers is a given.

    The classic American formula of exotic dancing alone providing decent earnings potential relied at least in part on Puritan 'leftovers'. As liberalism has eroded the Puritan appeal of "mere" nudity, more and more American strip clubs are transitioning from 'show' business to 'sex' business. Ultimately for some 10%-20% of dancers who can meet the criteria to work in top shelf class act show clubs, this transition means very little in the short term. But for the 80%-90% of us who don't fall into that elite category, increasing liberalism in strip clubs will eventually starve out 'clean' dancers as more and more club customers begin to expect maximum 'bang' for their bucks.

    And in the long term the 10%-20% of girls who were fortunate enough to avoid the issue now by getting hired in the top shelf show clubs will find that 5 or certainly 10 years down the road that they'll be under tremendous competitive pressure from more and more younger girls who will assault the top shelf show clubs since the other clubs will essentially require all dancers to provide very high contact levels in order to earn decent money.
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-19-2005 at 09:48 AM.

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Not trying to start an argument here, but the fact of the matter is, those who would see you in jail are members of the Religious Right and they are the current driving force behind Republican politics. Go to any city that is struggling with laws against strip clubs, and I'll show you a religious rightie who is behind it. If you're trying to tell me that liberals are the bane of the adult enterainment industry, you're going to have to do a better job that that.

    Personally, I subscribe to the Libertarian philosophy. Get the govt out of my life. The current brand of neo-conservatism wants to pretend that they are like this, but really, they want to run your life as much as the left does, just taking it in a different direction.

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
    Not trying to start an argument here, but the fact of the matter is, those who would see you in jail are members of the Religious Right and they are the current driving force behind Republican politics. Go to any city that is struggling with laws against strip clubs, and I'll show you a religious rightie who is behind it. If you're trying to tell me that liberals are the bane of the adult enterainment industry, you're going to have to do a better job that that.
    I'm not contesting the fundies aren't a driving force behind strip club laws, but I've personally seen a lot of liberal Democratic mayors / city councilpeople do exactly the same thing when they need an issue to run on. I'm sure our Republicans here can cite some specific examples for you.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    You must know about this site: http://protestwarrior.com/

    Some of the undercover video's of ANSWER and the like are truely frightening the kind of world they would like to create.
    Thanks for the link..
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    Veteran Member myssi's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Let's see, who created this religious right myth? The liberal media of course. The fact
    that there are religious liberals is....cough cough... never mentioned in the media.
    Are orthodox Jews part of the religious right or are they (in general and why must we
    stereotype anyway) usually on the left? Are devout Buddhists and Muslims
    right wing republicans? Every party has extremists and every party
    has religious, less religious, and non-religious members. And what does religion have
    to do with stripping anyway??? Read the Song of Solomon sometime. Nudity and
    sexuality are not necessarily against "religion" and of course it depends on each
    particular religious sect. There are religions that are against (*gasp*) wearing clothes.
    A desire to regulate strip clubs and alcohol can have many motivations... political...
    economic, etc. So lets leave religion and inane terms like "religious right" out of it
    and get back to the question: what do liberals want?
    Personally, I'm a libertarian myself... but even libertarians don't agree on everything.

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    I think the term Religious right means those who would be considered rightwing politicaly and are also extreem in their religious views. I don't see anything wrong with the term. I know not all rightwing leaning people are overtly religious so....

    I am not reading the article because I see it is from that Nation Review site which is nothing bunch of anti-liberal rightwing bullshit in my opinion -- but I will answer the question what this liberal cares about the most:

    Equal rights , education, healthcare for all.

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    God/dess Mr Hyde's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    There is no myth. Of course there are religious lefties, but the RR are the ones that want to ban SCs, ban porn, ban adult fun in general and they aren't Democrats. How one can be an adult entertainer and support right wing politics is just a mystery to me. I can see being a fiscal conservative, I'm one, but to give full support to the current GOP as a stripper...I don't get it. The very people you support think you're immoral and what you do should be illegal.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    The very people you support think you're immoral and what you do should be illegal
    Well, at some theoretical extreme, you're probably right. However, the uber-liberals who are not interested in the morality of exotic dancing or the illegality of prostitution are just as certainly killing the financial viability of American style exotic dancing, and gradually replacing it with what amounts to a western european 'a la carte' sex business where dancing produces virtually no income by itself but merely serves as advertising for selling HJ's BJ's and/or FS in the VIP room.

    Personally speaking, I'd rather have my day in court re bogus charges, as opposed to facing a dilemma of just dancing for WalMart earnings potential or engaging in paid sex acts in order to earn decent money.

    Remember it is the Puritan leftovers i.e. the fact that female nudity and sultriness still serve some sort of a 'forbidden fruit' role which club customers are still willing to pay for, that makes American style exotic dancing financially viable. When societal values become so liberal that nude beaches provide all of the female nudity any guy could possibly want for free, and where those same societal values see sex for money as an acceptable exercise of freedom of choice between consenting adults which merely needs to be regulated for health reasons, American style exotic dancing will go the same way as the proverbial 'buggy whip'.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    Equal rights , education, healthcare for all.
    How come my liberal economics professor wouldn't give me an A unless I wrote a final paper that supported Marxist economics? Why do I have to specify my race/ethnicity on certain applications? That's not equal rights.

    I see schools get worse as more money is plowed into them. Then when some answers are proposed (vouchers, merit raises/qualifications for teachers) that might help, might be worth a shot, my liberal friends violently oppose those. Seems to me they want the status quo over efforts that might improve education.

    I don't see anybody being denied health care, except the middle class who can't qualify for indigent care and can't afford premiums. But I don't see where the liberal (or conservative, for that matter) proposals address this. From the liberals, I just see a socialization of health care, which I'm far from convinced is all that effective, especially when talking to my Canadian friends. (From the conservatives, I see tort reform, which is like shooting a mad grizzly with a BB gun and calling it an effective solution.)

    Obviously, I don't think conservatives have the answers, either. But most of my conservative and liberal friends do believe in equal rights, education, and health care for all - they just have different ideas on how to reach those goals.

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Jay I don't know how I am supposed to know why your professor reacted that way -- I can only speak for what this liberal ( me) wants. Seriously , that's like me asking you why BigD wanted to see me and my daughter beheaded- how in the world would you know why ?

    I do however find the things I care most about are often the very same things other liberals I know care about.

    As for why your race is asked for on some apps- that could be for numerous reasons, some are even to protect people from not being treated equaly. Some are for tracking of likely customers or trends in business. I'm sure that sometimes it asked for non positve reasons too. But I fail to see how I , as a liberal am somehow solely responcible for the race question being there in the first place. I mean where in the world is the logic in that ???

    I believe in and fight equal rights. If you feel that the question of race is a violation of equal rights then I welcome you to take a stand- if I find that it is a reasonable arguement I very well might join you in that stand.

    'm gald you find that both your conservative as well as liberal friends all want equal rights, education and healthcare for all. However , I think your situation is rare( from my experiences in life) as I have found that those things are generaly on the bottom of the conservative agenda list and fall under personal tax breaks , forcing fundy christian values into law and hoarding resources for use only for those they deem acceptable -ie white, christian upperclass.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    My apologies, Tigerlilly. I thought I was responding to generalizations about "what liberals care about," and I just scrolled back and saw your posting, "What this liberal cares about."

    So my retort was off-point, ill-mannered, and misplaced. I am sorry. I have no doubt but that you sincerely care about those issues.

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    I think the term Religious right means those who would be considered rightwing politicaly and are also extreem in their religious views. I don't see anything wrong with the term.
    That's pretty accurate.

    I am not reading the article because I see it is from that Nation Review site which is nothing bunch of anti-liberal rightwing bullshit in my opinion
    So it's bullshit before consideration? Now I see why you prefer an echo chamber to a discussion forum.

    Overall it was a decent, if somewhat agitative article with some very salient points.

    The Cold War was NOT about liberating people.
    Interesting, especially when you've been afforded that luxury by your citizenship in the US. Ask some folks in Eastern Europe what they think about that sometime. My primary undergrad professor jumped the Berlin Wall with six friends to defect to the West; two of them died in the process. Somehow I don't think that was about buying Sony TVs and McDonalds Big Macs.

    Conservatives have been talking to liberals for the past 70 years. Liberals haven't been listening ! It's only now that liberals have lost influence in the oval office plus both houses of congress that they're all of a sudden interested in talking !

    Yes we have a lot in common - we both have to pay outrageous taxes enacted by liberals, we both are prevented from exercising our full constitutional rights to gun ownership and unrestricted use of private property as legislated/interpreted by liberals, and we're both mortgaging our children's futures !
    Truth in brief. Sadly, there are no conservatives in our GOP with regard to fiscal or monetary policy, and it's having tragic consequences.

    In theory, Communism has its benefits
    In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they aren't.

    Communism--which isn't even a liberal ideology in the truest sense of the word--failed for the same reasons that so many liberal ideas and policies fail; liberalism is predicated on the naive notion that people operate out of benevolent altruism by default.

    "Do as I say, not as I do," is the motto of modern-day liberalism in the US. I've often said there are two types of basic worldview assumptions: those that see the world as it should be, and those that see the world as it is. Liberals too often are in the former camp, rather than the latter.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer


    So it's bullshit before consideration? Now I see why you prefer an echo chamber to a discussion forum..
    I have visited that site a few times to read suggested links, I aware of their perspective. I didn't feel like wasting my time on another story about how horrible of a person I am supposed to be for not being exactly like them.

    As per your echo chamber comment-- that is a flat out lie. If I wanted an echo chamber I'd post my political thoughts on an exclusive liberal website. I choose to post here instead so I can see and learn more than just my own point of view. How fucking boring an echo chamber type forum would be, nay-- no thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    "Do as I say, not as I do," is the motto of modern-day liberalism in the US. I've often said there are two types of basic worldview assumptions: those that see the world as it should be, and those that see the world as it is. Liberals too often are in the former camp, rather than the latter.
    Well this liberal is seeing things both ways not just one or the other.And how interesting that you would say that it is liberals who pull the do as I say not as I do thing- because that is EXACTLY what I find to be oh so common with conservatives.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    And how interesting that you would say that it is liberals who pull the do as I say not as I do thing- because that is EXACTLY what I find to be oh so common with conservatives.
    That's what I find oh so common with both.

    Different paths, but ...
    Same tactics.
    Same rhetoric, just mirror-imaged.
    Same levels of hypocrisy.

    Because the lowest common denominator for both blind-adherence-to-philosophy camps is "human nature."

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    Veteran Member myssi's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    BTW, let's be honest... we aren't just talking about "equal rights, education, and healthcare for all"... more like [special] equal rights, [free] education, and [free] universal healthcare.

    But there's no free lunch in this world... maybe liberals think there should be... but
    someone has to pay. Liberal's want "the rich" to pay [not them, even if they are wealthy].

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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    liberalism is predicated on the naive notion that people operate out of benevolent altruism by default.
    Where did a liberal say this? Is it true that one actually did? Maybe someone actually did say that who called themself a liberal, I don't know, but I am curious who it may have been.

    "Do as I say, not as I do," is the motto of modern-day liberalism in the US.
    Not my f*cking motto, lol...


    I read the article, because I like seeing what the other side has to say, though I wasn't all that impressed with it. How does the author know whether or how deeply all liberals cared about Chileans, Nicaraguans, Africans oppressed by Black strongmen, or anyone else? He doesn't.

    Liberals didn't have to worry much about Nicaraguans, since Reagan was blathering on endlessly about the poor outnumbered "Freedom Fighters"--who needed our support so badly it was necessary to sell guns to terrorists and deal with drug lords, to get the money they needed so desperately to kill those commie nuns.

    Maybe that's a bad example. But it does seem ridiculous for each side to adopt their own pet 'downtrodden' populations to blather on about. Pretending that conservatives really do care about their pet abused groups, but that liberals really don't--since they are just using them to fuck with conservatives--is one of the most willfully blind bits of rhetoric I have seen in quite a while.

    I've never quite considered my self a liberal, until possibly in recent years, after seeing what hogwash has been sold to the American populace by the religious right. I was raised republican, but as soon as they allied themselves with the religious freaks and moralistic goons, they lost me.

    I am still reluctant to call myself a 'liberal', but if opposing a President who lies to his own people about the reason for starting a war with a nation that hasn't attacked us makes me one, I suppose I am. If, in his words...

    "Moral truth is the same in every culture, in every time, and in every place."

    He should be impeached for his own violation of it.

    "That's what I'm talkin' 'bout."
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    Default Re: What is it that liberals REALLY care about ?

    The "special" rights arguemnt is CRAP and pure proganda used most often by people who hold an anti-gay position and /or those who have race issues. I mean seriously how is it special to be treated the same as everyone else ? Please, WHATEVER.

    The "free lunch" stuff is crap too. Total bullshit.

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