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Thread: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

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    Default "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    The presidential Oath does not include the words "so help me god" at the end.
    George Washington added it as an ad lib,and EVERY president since ole George has said it when sworn in,republican and democrate.

    Where is the seperation of church and state,and why hasnt any fanatics filed suit in court??

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Why is it that they have their hand on the bible? Same thing, no?



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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Where is the seperation of church and state,and why hasnt any fanatics filed suit in court??
    Because Americans do not understand their own Constitution well enough to know that there is no specific separation clause, nor that individual beliefs of political leaders are also protected by the First Amendment. It's just easier to scream, "Violation of separation of church and state!" when they have no friggin' clue what they're talking about.

    Alas, it begs my common refrain:

    Fewer voters = better government
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    I am a person who objects to religion being part of our Government, but probably not for the reasons some may immediately assume. I am not a very religious person myself but I do see the need for Separation of Church and State as being an important thing for those who are religious as well as those who are not.

    There is no freedom of religion in this country when one religion gets granted special status by the government. There is no freedom of religion in this country when the government is free to legislate religious views down it's citizens throats. There is no freedom of religion in this country without the Separation of Church and State.

    I think we need to remind all followers of "God" the truth about the "religious right." They have been using all of the "faithful," claiming to be vessels of God's word, all the while doing the damage to people in this country and in other parts of the world.

    The Bible says blessed are the people who can recognize those doing evil in the name of Jesus. I feel that many supporters of GWB and the current trends of the Republican party need to sit up, open their eyes and see that is what is really going on in this country.

    "Faith-based initiatives" was Rove's way to weasel into the churches, promise them financial relief in exchange for giving up some of their freedoms. Namely freedom to go to church without the government trying to use it as a means of mass control.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    The presidential Oath does not include the words "so help me god" at the end.
    George Washington added it as an ad lib,and EVERY president since ole George has said it when sworn in,republican and democrate.

    Where is the seperation of church and state,and why hasnt any fanatics filed suit in court??
    Now Big Green, don't give them any ideas. Michael Newdow could be reading this as we speak.


    Quote Originally Posted by hardkandee
    Why is it that they have their hand on the bible? Same thing, no?
    I've always wondered along those same lines, that if we ever inaugurated a Jewish president, if they would use a Talmud instead?
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    The presidential Oath does not include the words "so help me god" at the end.
    George Washington added it as an ad lib,and EVERY president since ole George has said it when sworn in,republican and democrate.

    Where is the seperation of church and state,and why hasnt any fanatics filed suit in court??
    Bigger fish to fry. I'm not in the least worried about someone who wants to insist that they believe in God in the public forum. What i'm worried about is someone who wants to insist that *I* believe in God in the public forum.

    There really are people out there who desire nothing less than to turn the United States into a full blown Theocracy. I don't think they have much chance, but just in case...

    One thing that chaps a lot of fundie asses is that "freedom of religion" also means "freedom of [insert infidel faith here]." Just an observation...

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish
    I've always wondered along those same lines, that if we ever inaugurated a Jewish president, if they would use a Talmud instead?
    Not Talmud (written by Rabbis), just the old Testament, I guess.
    I'm Jewish so I've always wondered what they would have me do if I was picked for a jury.



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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    LOL hardkandee! I went to jury duty once and was picked. One african american women in her 40's was also picked and would not swear on the bible. I do not know what particular faith she was but she just would not do it. The judge just ended up saying forget it and sent her home. I guess its a good way to get out of it.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muyaha
    LOL hardkandee! I went to jury duty once and was picked. One african american women in her 40's was also picked and would not swear on the bible. I do not know what particular faith she was but she just would not do it. The judge just ended up saying forget it and sent her home. I guess its a good way to get out of it.
    Now THAT's the most useful piece of information to ever come out of our church and state discussions. Next time I get stuck with jury duty I'm going to try that angle, and insist that they produce a Satanic Bible or something if they expect to swear me in.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    I have seen juries picked and witnesses sworn in within various Colorado and Wyoming courtrooms, and I have never seen a Bible present.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Yes! That is useful...

    But frightening at the same time! There really is a problem with separation of church and state if a citizen is held to be incapable of rendering just decisions due their lack of faith in a Christian God.

    Not that I had any doubts. From an early age children are made to swear allegiance to God as an integral part of swearing allegiance to our country. No atheist could ever be elected President, and moderately religious candidates regularly shout each other down in their attempts to demonstrate how faithful they are, since the Fundamentalists have gotten their clutches into the heart of the political process.

    On the eve of the first Bush War, GWB's daddy spent the night in prayer with Billy fucking Graham, the TV evangelist who has leeched millions of dollars from America's gullible and stupid .

    This latest "Faith-based initiative" horseshit is opening a new era in the succesful infiltration of Fundamentalism into political power.

    I would modify CO's statement slightly:

    Fewer voters for Jesus=better government
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    why hasnt any fanatics filed suit in court??
    Hmm. It's funny to me that any person who opposes government sanctioned religion and chooses to take the issue to court gets called a fanatic.
    I guess all of us here who support seperation of church and state are just a bunch of crazies

    Ah well so be it. I'd rather be crazy than jailed for not praying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    I have seen juries picked and witnesses sworn in within various Colorado and Wyoming courtrooms, and I have never seen a Bible present.
    Same here. I have been to more than a few court cases as a spectator and I have had to testify and I also never saw a bible in court. I was simply asked to swear to tell the truth etc - no so help me god stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    On the eve of the first Bush War, GWB's daddy spent the night in prayer with Billy fucking Graham, the TV evangelist who has leeched millions of dollars from America's gullible and stupid .
    well the Bush's had to keep on the up and up on how to fool people into believing the lies that were/ would be told so they could get GW back in office-- who better to teach them the latest trends in propaganda than a tv evangelist

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muyaha
    LOL hardkandee! I went to jury duty once and was picked. One african american women in her 40's was also picked and would not swear on the bible. I do not know what particular faith she was but she just would not do it. The judge just ended up saying forget it and sent her home. I guess its a good way to get out of it.
    I think it's the Jehovah's Witnesses whose religious beliefs prohibit them from swearing. I don't think they object to taking an oath, just doing it on the bible.

    I think the placing the hand on a bible is a tradition handed down from George Washington as well. There's not law that requires either one, it's just a tradition.
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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    As to the oath: President's can simply "affirm" rather than swear and at least one has done that.
    Re: Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't think that there is a problem with taking an oath, but note
    that their bible has been a little re-written (example: no cross... it is a torture stake... also
    there's a very specific difference in punctuation which amounts to a comma put in a different
    place... there was no punctuation in the original language). I think you are confusing it with
    not wanting to take the pledge of allegiance to the US... the objection to that is that it would be idolatry, putting the country over God. Anyway, let's put this dumb "religious right" thing
    to bed. Rev. Jessie Jackson, Rev. Al Sharpton, Jimmy Carter (a baptist deacon), the
    Berrigan brothers... not RR obviously. There was never any "seperation between..."
    just a non-establishment of any religion over another...
    Apparently other posters here think allowing religious people in government
    is a really bad thing. [?Except JFK (a Catholic)] ... so are we to "establish" atheism for
    our official government... I think some posters would say yes... I would say that putting
    atheism (or agnosticism) above everything else is just as non-constitutional.
    By the way, look who is supporting faith based initiatives, look who's invoking God,
    look who's praying... a member of the RR?
    http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas...atives?mode=PF
    No, it's Hillary.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Because Americans do not understand their own Constitution well enough to know that there is no specific separation clause, nor that individual beliefs of political leaders are also protected by the First Amendment. It's just easier to scream, "Violation of separation of church and state!" when they have no friggin' clue what they're talking about.

    Alas, it begs my common refrain:

    Fewer voters = better government
    Wow folks... you let CO's word just pass right over your. He speaks the truth.

    There is nothing - NOTHING - in the United States Constitution that specifically states that Church and State is to be separate.

    What allows Church and State to be separate in the United States is NOT our Constitution, but years of Judicial precedent, coupled with a core belief that the separation should be there. Precedent also is involved in areas such as the statement "So help me God" after the Presidential Oath. If one is to actually be foolish enough to start a lawsuit about it, they would have to prove that either their rights were violated or that that statement presents a clear and palpable danger to themselves or the Institutions of the United States. After it being an accepted practice by the highest elected American official for over 200 years, good luck with that.

    If people took the time to actually sit down and read the Constitution - I mean really read what it says - you would have a far better grasp as to what is really in violation and what isn’t. It might deflate some of your most cherished arguments, but also will bolster others.
    Last edited by Prester_John; 01-22-2005 at 04:41 PM.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    I have to say I disagree with the idea of fewer votes equaling better government. I have to wonder how less representation of citizens would provide better quality of life. I am however, interested to read why or how that is supposed to work.

    I also disagree that Separation of Church and State has nothing to do with the founding fathers vision of this country being they left their homeland to escape government sanctiond religion.

    The desire to be free to practice or not practice a persons religion of choice, or lack thereof is the exact reason this country was founded. Without Separation of Church and State in government policy there is no true freedom of religion.

    Those who are fearing that they will not be able to practice their religion because of Separation of Church and State have things completely reversed. The more religious a person is the more they should support separation from government policy.

    The people and groups who have been trying to put religion in policy at every possible turn are actually destroying religious freedom, not protecting it. However I seriously doubt it is about religious beliefs for them anyway. I find it to much more about trying to control others in both mind and body.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prester_John
    There is nothing - NOTHING - in the United States Constitution that specifically states that Church and State is to be seperate.
    I think where some people get this idea is from a misinterpretation of the establishment clause in the 1st Amendment:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    There's a big difference between an establishment of religion and some rote repeitition in the Presidential Oath, or the Pledge of Allegiance, or on our money.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish
    There's a big difference between an establishment of religion and some rote repeitition in the Presidential Oath, or the Pledge of Allegiance, or on our money.
    So if it can be on money,why would it have to be removed from a state seal???

    If the pledge is still said in public schools,how come christmas decorations are not allowed?
    The whole thing is kinda confusing.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Some people take this stuff totally overboard. Personally, if my money said "in Elvis we trust" i wouldn't give a rat's ass as long as it can make my car payment.

    If the poem kids recite before school starts said "one nation, under mother goose, indivisible" i really wouldn't care. It's not like the kids saying it are doing anything more than reciting something by rote, anyway. Say it and get it over with, or stand there, one way or another just get on with the three R's.

    My big problems with this stuff is the assinine tendency people have to insist that their versions of stuff gets taught in science class when there isn't any scientific evidence for what they want taught (I.E. Creationism in biology class), that stuff is irritating. If you want your kids to learn that crap teach it to them in sunday school. Science class is for science (there's also the option of certain schools that are bible friendly).

    I could care less if someone in govornment is religious. Many religious people are well meaning and decent (sometimes even sweet), govornment is supposed to be for everyone. The problem is when people start wanting govornment to promote religion (and a lot of them want this). The question to ask then is this: which religion? There are thousands to choose from. Say they pick Christianity to promote, okay, now which branch? There are hundreds, each with their own ideas and some of them convinced to their toenails that everyone that doesn't agree with them has a place waiting for them in the deepest pit of hell.

    Nah, fuck that. Too messy. That shit should be left where it belongs, at home (Jesus went further with that, saying that it should be kept in the closet, no joke). The people preaching the loudest about the need to be saved, are usually the people that have the most to be saved FROM. You can usually tell the real believers from the zealots. They tend to be laid back about it, i have no problem with those people.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    If the pledge is still said in public schools,how come christmas decorations are not allowed?
    The whole thing is kinda confusing.
    That's a good question. It's not like all that many people pray to santa. Christmas has kinda lost it's religious acpect years ago (soon as the corporations got hold of it).

    Like i said, though, some people take this shit over the top. There are plenty of fanatical secularists out there, zeal isn't monopolized by the religious. Look at that freak wasting taxpayer money trying to get two words removed from a poem.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Excuse me for having a memory, but Ruth Carter Stapelton--Jimmy Carter's sister--was a practicing faith healer.
    http://koti.mbnet.fi/amoira/carterr1.htm
    is one of many quotes you can find if you google her name.
    He ate with her in the WhiteHouse as a guest, then went to an adult Sunday School.
    http://www.jimmycarterlibrary.org/do...8/d042378t.pdf

    Imagine the furror the liberals would come up with if GWB had a minister for a brother or sister?

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    I have to say I disagree with the idea of fewer votes equaling better government. I have to wonder how less representation of citizens would provide better quality of life. I am however, interested to read why or how that is supposed to work.
    At the risk of derailing this thread, this stems back to an assumption on the part of the founding fathers that a 'citizen' did not refer merely to someone who was present in our country. Instead it referred to someone who had a personal 'stake' in our country's future, typically only white landowners. James Madison described the issue thusly ...

    The right of suffrage is a fundamental Article in Republican Constitutions. The regulation of it is, at the same time, a task of peculiar delicacy. Allow the right [to vote] exclusively to property [owners], and the rights of persons may be oppressed... . Extend it equally to all, and the rights of property [owners] ...may be overruled by a majority without property....

    The dilemma was described more succinctly by a prominent professor at the time ...

    in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."



    By pre-civil war times voting rights had expanded to include white men without property. After the civil war this expanded to include black men, followed by women, followed by non-english speakers. Obviously, today the issue of US voters making voting decisions based on promised benefits from the public treasury, and politicians campaigning to those voters based on who will receive those benefits versus who will be taxed to pay for them, has now indeed become the huge problem the professor predicted 220 years ago !

    Perhaps more importantly, the issues of promised benefits from the public treasury versus who will be taxed to pay for them has clearly begun to overshadow other issues which would have had much greater importance to an earlier electorate consisting only of 'property owners' i.e. national security, economic health, or most importantly of all planning for the future. The vast majority of today's 'non-property owning' registered voters have very short term attention spans (i.e. ignoring past positions of candidates) and equally short future horizons (i.e. worrying about next month's gov't check or next year's tax rate versus the impact of policies some 4-8-20 years down the road).

    Today's Republican answer to the professor's problem is to try and limit the issues which are actually presented to the general public for a vote, and instead to try and rely on executive orders and congressional/senate votes. Today's Democratic answer to the professor's problem seems to be to allow the general public to vote on important issues, but if they don't like the results of that vote to then turn to the courts to overrule the will of the voters.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-23-2005 at 06:59 AM.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    fewer votes = better government is one of the most ridiculous concepts I have ever heard of.... it sounds like the mantra of those who want to suppress the rights and freedoms of people who have a different lifestyle or political views than their own.

    as for the church/state issue... if the the christian republicans would stop trying to force their religious veiws on everyone else there would be no reason to even argue over church/state..... if you wanna blame someone for church/state problems look no further than the Christian Right.

    Religion has no value in government policy. Pushing religion into government harms both religion and government. It is a lose/lose situation.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Because Americans do not understand their own Constitution well enough to know that there is no specific separation clause, nor that individual beliefs of political leaders are also protected by the First Amendment.
    I brought this same point up back in November, but it brought no comments then. Glad I'm not alone on recognizing this issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pan Dah
    Now just to be clear, is that [religion having no place in politics] true when religious leaders lead civil rights marches, oppose bombing in Viet Nam or Iraq, call for minimum wage increases and improved homeless shelters? Or does it only apply when they oppose abortion, strip clubs and gay marriage?
    Somehow I like this person's way of thinking.


    BTW, If you have ANY US government documents with the words, "In God We Trust" inscribed on them, and you don't like those words on them, I will help you dispose of all such documents. I will even pay postage for you to mail them to me for disposal, free to you.

    Wonder why they say those words?
    Last edited by threlayer; 01-24-2005 at 07:02 PM. Reason: add content
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: "So Help Me God"The oath and the seperation of church and State.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pan Dah
    Now just to be clear, is that true when religious leaders lead civil rights marches, oppose bombing in Viet Nam or Iraq, call for minimum wage increases and improved homeless shelters?
    Or does it only apply when they oppose abortion, strip clubs and gay marriage?
    Last i heard "in govornment" meant *in* govornment. If some religious-leader wants to, they can *call for* anything they want. I.E. Anti-Abortion, opposing gay marriage, civil rights, etc...

    Religion having no place "in govornment" means not making policy based on the dictates of some religious text. If people are calling for laws, then the laws should be considered because PEOPLE are calling for them, not because some guy that died three thousand years ago says it's a sin to eat shellfish.

    Govornment is supposed to be for the people. Our elected lawmakers need to represent their constituents rather than their personal beliefs. If the majority of their constituents are calling for something based on *their* personal beliefs, then it's the elected representatives job to act on their behalf (whatever he thinks). In this case religion has nothing to do with it. Who cares where it came from, all that matters is that those who elected the representative want something done.

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  5. "God I have a problem" an online joke..
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    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-22-2004, 07:23 AM

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