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Thread: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

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    Veteran Member livenudegirlsunite's Avatar
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    Default Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    I am told that I am an independent contractor but let's face it, I'm not.
    When some dirtbag starts putting his hands all over the place it's never the fault of the dirtbag putting his hands all over the place. Somehow, it's supposedly my fault?
    Not only am I tired of paying to be sexually assaulted, I am also tired of all these damn greedy pigs and politicians trying to get every penny they can get their crooked hands on.
    Talk about taxation without representation.
    I am so frustrated and so pissed off. When these Vegas clubs tell the dancers (a.k.a. professional sexual assault victims) that they have to pay the damn crooked pigs $100 a year, are they saying this to everyone? -- Or, are they just saying this to the people that they think they can easily extort from?

    How is it that a normal night club can afford to pay a DJ, but a strip club can't?
    How is it that a normal night club can afford to pay valet guys, but a strip club can't?
    How is it that a normal night club can afford to pay security guys, but a strip club can't?
    Last edited by livenudegirlsunite; 01-28-2005 at 03:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Man oh man do I hear ya !

    Stuff like that is why the industry needs more regulation. Self regulation though, formally... a union of some sort like SAG or AGMA maybe? I don't know, but something needs to change.

    We can't leave it up to the cops and city councils, they'll just use us. But something has to give soon because there truely is a fair amount of extortion of dancers going on in the industry in general and it seems to be getting worse all the time.

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    tampafldancer
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    wow.. i hear ya too.

    hands open everywhere... money def speaks at my club!

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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    I hear you loud and clear. Women get treated like shit in this industry.

    The really smart, strong ones figure out how to turn the tables and make it work for them in spite of all the bullshit. But it ain't easy, and there can be many nights of bitterness and frustration along the way to figuring it out.

    I think the single biggest problem is that sexuality is viewed with such fear in this country. Any woman working in the sex industry is perceived as little better than a degenerate criminal by the mainstream. The men controlling the industry use this to their advantage to manipulate and extort the women into paying for everything except the customers' drinks--and in many clubs they are even responsible for selling them, as well.

    There is no easy solution, but it is way beyond time for the intelligent women in this business, who are toughing it out, to figure out ways to take the power back.
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  5. #5
    242_fair
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Classic Example:

    Last night a guy assaulted me and then didin't want to pay.

    I had to call the bouncer over to help.

    Finally, he got my money out of the customer, THEN I have to hand the bouncer his 20% cut for his 'time'.

    Pay to get assaulted. Thats how it works in this business.

  6. #6
    tampafldancer
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    <hugs> to 242_fair!


    I got cheated out of like more then 400 $$ from a handsy guy i did a champagne with at a former club. I finally had to walk out with like 7 minutes to spare and didnt collect it upfront. That club sucked, and the manager was a complete assmonkey!


    when i approached the manager about it, the guy was complaining about prices when i told him upfront and he knew what champagne cost. He was fiddling with 100 dollar bills in his pocket while doing the room, so i figured he had the cash no problem. At the end he gave me 60 freaking dollars! (for an hr!!) and said he didnt have anymore wtf???

    the manager laughed and said i should have gotten it upfront. I should have walked out on the club then!!! stupid me.

    errrr!

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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    The problem with organizing is that there will always be more women to take our places if we strike--maybe less attractive, but if a guy (not all guys, mind you) can get a less attractive woman to grind on his cock for no money, why should he hold out for a more talented, more attractive woman who will give less mileage and demand better treatment? As long as the management still gets its $$$, it won't care, either.

    The only way I can see it getting better is if women or really conscientious men start opening their own bullshit-free clubs, and they start making a lot of money--more than the clubs where it is not as good for the dancers. That way, club owners would have a financial incentive to create a better environment for their dancers.

    I've heard of a few dancer-run clubs that have not had as much success as they'd hoped.

    As long as the public/patrons will not support dancers' quests for better conditions, it doesn't seem like anything can change. And I don't know almost any customers who would champion the cause of strippers because of how negatively the industry is seen by the majority of the people in this country.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Oh, and do you know what's really A LOT of fun? Trying to get a receipt for your club fees. Most clubs just won't give you one. Point blank refusal. I tip the barstaff based on what they do for and how well they do it - if a waitress points me at a customer with whom I make a great deal of money I'll tip her 10% of what I make. If a bouncer helps me out, I tip him what I think is a reasonable amount for the amount of time and effort he expended. What I especially loved was one club I worked in, in which the bouncers main job was couting your lapdances so that you could pay the bar 10%. I'M meant to tip him for this? For helping the bar take my money? Let them tip him for that.
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    The really smart, strong ones figure out how to turn the tables and make it work for them in spite of all the bullshit. But it ain't easy, and there can be many nights of bitterness and frustration along the way to figuring it out.

    I think the single biggest problem is that sexuality is viewed with such fear in this country. Any woman working in the sex industry is perceived as little better than a degenerate criminal by the mainstream. The men controlling the industry use this to their advantage to manipulate and extort the women into paying for everything except the customers' drinks--and in many clubs they are even responsible for selling them, as well.

    There is no easy solution, but it is way beyond time for the intelligent women in this business, who are toughing it out, to figure out ways to take the power back.
    Bingo !
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    How is it that a normal night club can afford to pay a DJ, but a strip club can't?
    Ha. Clubs of any sort don't like to pay people.

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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Oh, and do you know what's really A LOT of fun? Trying to get a receipt for your club fees. Most clubs just won't give you one. Point blank refusal.

    when i worked at delilah's here in philly, I, the DJ, had to pay a housefee as well. 65 bucks a night. for "equipment rental", no less. and i always got receipts. i'm pretty sure they'd give them to the girls if they specifically asked, too. but that was the only club that i have ever seen do it.
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Yep, most of the DJ's in Detroit have to tip out the house as well. $3 to $5 PER GIRL. And they have to supply all their own music. There is no "house music." Each DJ has to bring their own. Either on CD's or laptop. I never recieved a receipt when I was DJing. Never asked for one tho, so I don't know if I could have gotten one or not. I'm guessing no however.

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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Oh, and do you know what's really A LOT of fun? Trying to get a receipt for your club fees. Most clubs just won't give you one. Point blank refusal.
    I've given up getting a receipt at my current club. I had to purchase my own receipt book and then pester (yes pester) the manageress (this is the same power-abusing incompentent managerss I loathe) to sign it. I do the fees weekly as I declare my income weekly... so there isn't that many "papers" to sign...however she should be more encouraging of this action. She is far from it.

    It isn't all doom and gloom... my little club in Rockhampton always gives me a receipt. They are "on the ball" there. Just my home club that I'm grrrr about....

    Otherwise... here here sista! I totally hear you even here in Australia !


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    Veteran Member stant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naughty~Nikki
    ...the industry needs more regulation.
    The industry is already well covered by existing labor, tax, and criminal regulations. Many of these, primarily labor and tax regs, are simply ignored. Management and owners of certain clubs presumably convince dancers they are somehow taking home more money and getting a better deal under this (independant contractor) scam. Side stepping employee classification laws looks better than what they would get in a legal employment environment. In reality, what is happening is the entire burden for benefits, workplace injury insurance, taxes, and in fact a portion of non-dancer staff wages come from dancer earnings, unlawfully. By shifting the burden for witholding and taxes to the dancer, but extracting various illegal fees when wages are paid, the club mananges to extract (steal) phony payroll deductions for itself, which superficially feels like the legal government payroll deductions with which everyone is familiar.

    Why does this abusive practice continue? It appears: 1) a majority of the targets of this scheme have been convinced they get a reasonably fair deal; 2) the regulators are confounded by the cash nature of the business; 3) the high turnover of staff; 4) and the cooperation of owners, management, staff and dancers. Indeed more money remains with the club system as a whole and less goes to the government, but the perceived burden for paying these unpaid taxes shifts almost completely to dancers, who then feel like lawbreakers, unwilling to come forward. In reality, if competantly adjudicated, the government sees through this scheme, and almost never holds it against them. Once corrected the monetary shift in their favor is considerable. But they have been conned to think they are the lawbreakers, not the club.

    Most dancers (as represented on this site) seem to be convinced they must remain nearly completely anonymous or be branded for life, causing housing, credit, relationship, and career problems. I'm not sold on this, but I also don't live in the bible belt. Regardless of the truth, this perception compounds the imagined financial improprieties, and the threshold of abuse that will be tolerated gets even higher.


    Self regulation though, formally... a union of some sort like SAG or AGMA maybe? I don't know, but something needs to change.
    Interesting choice of labor union models -- two professional artist guilds. The WGA and AFTRA are among others along these lines. This is a great idea, however, as explained above, I doubt an artists' or performers' guild can be formed of anonymous members.

    For what its worth, this sort of naked scam will no doubt spread and increase by leaps and bounds in many industries under the corrupt and catatonic eyes of current "dubya style" labor regulators. Toss in some so called "tort reform" corruption licenses the governmant is handing out like candy, and watch sexual assault incidents skyrocket in a variety of jobs. You won't be alone for long.

    ***
    Regarding "house fee" receipts, keeping a log of these fees yourself I believe is generally sufficient for IRS purposes, or should a dispute arise, is admissible evidence under the contemporaneous recording or business record exceptions to the hearsay rule. Similar to a logbook for recording "business" related mileage driven in your car. The fact that a club won't give you a reciept is in itself far more problematic for them than you. I wouldn't worry about it. A financial transaction has been made, and you recorded it.
    Last edited by stant; 01-29-2005 at 07:41 AM.

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    Veteran Member livenudegirlsunite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naughty~Nikki
    Stuff like that is why the industry needs more regulation. Self regulation though, formally... a union of some sort like SAG or AGMA maybe? I don't know, but something needs to change.

    We can't leave it up to the cops and city councils, they'll just use us. But something has to give soon because there truely is a fair amount of extortion of dancers going on in the industry in general and it seems to be getting worse all the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    If the dancers don't stand up to the wrongs in the industry they only have themselves to blame in the long run - standing up can mean alot of things from just changing clubs to lawsuits but I think it's just bonkers to sit there and take it Some dancers balk at the idea of a union but I think that is a big mistake overall. Very big.
    Why can't we get SAG to represent us? I think the DJs and Dancers would be very happy with this. It would help the industry return to it's entertainment roots. It would be great for customers as well. Now days if a person who is 30-60 pounds overweight says "Hi manager x. Here's some money. Can I have a job?" they will get the job, of course. In the last few months I have seen so many seriously overweight dancers at my club. It annoys the customers and it's embarrasing for the dancers who actually make an effort. I think SAG would have a good understanding that our industry does require that certain basic standards need to be met by anyone who applies for a job as an exotic dancer or DJ.
    Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. - M Rivero

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    Veteran Member stant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by livenudegirlsunite
    Why can't we get SAG to represent us?
    Well, SAG is the Screen Actors Guild, which represents film actors. AFTRA is the Association of Film TV and Radio Artists, AEA is the Actors Equity Association, representing live theater/stage actors. Each guild represents a specific segment of professional performers. The closest match among the guilds I know of would be AGMA, the American Guild of Musical Artists. They represent live performance dancers at major ballet and dance companies:
    http://www.musicalartists.org/
    http://www.musicalartists.org/Member..._V11_10_03.pdf

    This may look promising, but significant problems remain. First, the organization as it exists now, would offer little benefit for strippers, since the venues they perform in are not signatories to the Guild. What the guild provides to its members is collective bargaining power for negotiating employee contracts with individual dance companies. See the San Francisco Dance Company's employment contract: 76 pages --http://www.musicalartists.org/Contra...let2003-06.pdf


    I suspect the most likely avenue along these lines is to form another non-proft guild for strippers and petition the AFL-CIO for affiliation.

    Edit:

    I've changed my mind and believe Actors Equity to be a better model than AGMA, since they've learned to deal with issues of various size venues and have extraordinarily complex rules to protect performers.
    http://www.actorsequity.org/Library/rulebooks/ANTC_Rulebook_04-07.pdf
    .
    .
    .
    I believe, however, that the union-management economic model is an anachronism. It will fail. The model rejects cooperation, and turns a profit driven system into an advocacy dispute.

    Instead I suggest employee-ownership as a model. Incentive based pay. Tough love for the whole team. Its a harsh model, but this country has less and less room to become soft.

    Dancers, DJ's pool resources and buy a club.......
    Last edited by stant; 02-01-2005 at 07:18 AM.

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    Veteran Member livenudegirlsunite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    I think employee ownership is a great idea. I wish that normal people could come up with that kind of money to start a club.
    I have heard of companies that have employee investment. The club could hire employees and instead of putting all focus on paying stock holders, who only make one contribution at the begining, they take care of the employees. Because without employees there is no business.
    Of course the cops and politicians would not allow that to happen because they would lose all of their big time extortion $$$.
    Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. - M Rivero

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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn
    As I said in the Poll thread on this topic, dancers and DJ's ought to seek out unification as collective bargining agents. Either as a union [paid employees] or trade guilds [independent contractors].
    Some guilds represent IC's, such as the WGA, some represent members as employees, and collectively bargain for employment contracts, such as SAG, AGMA, and AEA. Courts have repeatedly ruled in venues throughout the country that most if not all dancers should be treated as employees, regardless of what they or their employer claim. The IC status of dancers has been repeatedly pierced, therefore chosing a model based on an IC would be doomed.

    But some of the comments made here suggest people have not done their homework vis-a-vis the law effecting these areas.
    Indeed...

    If you are an independent contractor, as most clubs work this currently, the club is under no obligation to provide you with music to play or to provide you with support features to collect your fees. You are solely responsible for these things. You set your own policies regarding how you collect your fees. If you supply services without being paid upfront, and you get burned, the club is under no legal obligation to track down your client and make them pay. Legally you contracted with them to provide a space in which you conduct your trade. If they supply that space they have met their legal obligation.
    This is entirely irrelevant, since the dancers are all (or nearly all) employees, regardless of what they claim.

    As as for licensing fees required by the City of Las Vegas, Nevada [or anywhere else for that matter] where money is required as payment for a city issued entertainment license: This isn't thievery, no matter how much you may want to view it as such. Licencing structure, and the fees associated with it, are well established under statute and ordinance law and have reams of legal precedence to back them up.
    Agreed. I can't find the comment you are referring to. My comments were in regards to unlawfull payroll deductions by the employer, which would include house fees, mandatory tipout, and fines. City licensing is of course perfectly acceptable, provided it doesn't interfere with the dancer's performance or ability to reasonably make a living. This issue is currently being litigated in Federal Court in San Antonio. This case looks promising, if a bit bizarre. Turns out that requiring dancers to keep these licenses on their person while dancing is a constitutional issue. (mulitple links on front page of site)

    I'm certainly asserting a position in the IC vs. employee dispute, and believe it will continue to prevail in the courts. I'll dig up the authority case law for this one of these days as this debate seems to recur regularly. Employee status offers so many protections and advantages for dancers and dj's under various US and state labor laws it is widely viewed as the preferrable status amongst employment and labor attorneys. The AEA model employment contract I posted a link to offers a litany of reasons why this is true.

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    Veteran Member livenudegirlsunite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn
    If you supply services without being paid upfront, and you get burned, the club is under no legal obligation to track down your client and make them pay. Legally you contracted with them to provide a space in which you conduct your trade. If they supply that space they have met their legal obligation.
    That's how all clubs work anyways. If you get burned too bad. If anything you can get fired if you ask for help in collecting fees. I have seen that happen more than once.
    Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. - M Rivero

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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    I have always wondered if if exotic dancers could join AGMA- I was AGMA when I was dancing with Boston Ballet and Bay Ballet Theatre. I was very satisfied with their representation. I don't know however if they do I.C's as I was a contracted employee with all the ballet companies I danced with so......

    The main problem I have seem with exotic dancers relating to getting better protections is lack of organization and greed issues- not willing to MAYBE give up some income in exchange for rights and protections. This is something that has always made me a bit sad as well as roll my eyes because I just don't get accepting poor treatment by clubs in exchange for cash. I would have been more than happy to give up some income to make sure other dancers were safe, but it seems I was in a small group of women who felt that way. I hope that changes for the sake of all current and future dancers

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    Veteran Member jessica_rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    I have a slightly off topic question. If a dancer is working as an independent contractor in a club, does the club have any legal right to enforce a schedule upon her? For example, can you simply arrive and leave for work when you want? At my club we are fined steeply for that. It seems a little strange that I'm required to behave as a paid employee, schedule-wise, when in fact I am paying them for use of their space. If they are taking money from me in exchange for their services, shouldn't that put me in the position of power.
    You see, the way it is always explained to me whenever auditioning at new clubs, the dancer is in business for herself and purchases space in the club. That way the club is not responsible for the dancer, as has been said so well in previous posts. In that case, how can the club fine me or set my schedule? Does anyone else have this problem? Can I fight this?

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    Veteran Member stant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn
    Let us use the example of an IC contracted to do kitchen remodling. The contract may stipulate that the IC provide all manner of gurantees as to the nature and quality of the work, and the contract may provide for penalties if those gurantees aren't met. Fines, for instance.
    OK. Forgiving the absence of legalese, I essentially agree. "Make me a new kitchen, I give you money." I've never heard the term fines used, but many such contracts include incentive scedules.

    Now here's the BIG problem... In this example the IC was contracted for a SINGLE task, a typical lawfull IC arrangement.

    So, an IC dancer may have stipulated in her work agreement with the club that she provide X level of entertainment, meaning number of hours worked on specific days, etc. So, technically, if it resides within the parameters of the agreement that a schedule shall be adhered to and that fines will be accessed for failure to met the specific gurantee [showing up when scheduled] then the agreement is enforcable.
    This is dramatically different. In fact, this is nearly the definition of an employee, aside from the absurd fines. Such payroll deductions are illegal to assess against employees, even if contractually agreed to. The contract makes the agreement an employment contract. Such contracts CANNOT be used to strip away employment and workplace rights. Late employees can be warned and fired. This is the law because this fine crap was done a century ago against workers. This scam aint new.


    For this to work though I would imagine said agreement would have to be in the form of a written contract. No judge is going to enforce a handshake deal on this.

    Now, if the employer hands you a written book[let], sheet, posted on wall, etc, of rules, this doesn't meet the requirement of an IC type contract. What s/he has handed you is an "employee handbood", or its equivilent. This could be tacit admission by management that you are an EMPLOYEE, not an I.C.
    Good point.

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    Default Re: Paying to be Sexually Assualted (rant)

    Well, there was never any written agreement. And there certainly was no "handshake". It seems that management decides to collect fines randomly. It's all pretty unprofessional. However, I can't see that going to court would at all help the situation. I think that maybe if all the dancers agreed to stand up for themselves and organize amongst themselves then it might help. Either that or I'll end up moving to a new club.

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