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Thread: Free.... to be Angry

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    Default Free.... to be Angry

    Please take special note of the photo at the top of this article from Newsweek

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Collateral damage, right? Damn ungrateful Iraqis!

    Unbelievable. I think either people forget about this tragic aspect of war willfully, or just don't care because they're the "enemy".

    These elections are a complete farce. We SHOULD be angry.
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

    Ernest Hemingway on writer, aviation pioneer and horse trainer Beryl Markham


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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    in the interest of journalistic balance, you might also read ..

    (might require a copy and paste because of the commas)

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Unbelievable. I think either people forget about this tragic aspect of war willfully, or just don't care because they're the "enemy".
    War is indeed a dirty business. We're not building gingerbread houses, we're killing savages and nihilists that kill for the sake of killing (and 72 virgins or whatever). There are going to be unfortunate side effects to that process. This is not unique to this war.

    If they'd stop shooting at us, we'd leave already.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    ^ That's funny. If we would have accepted the fact that we never should have been over there to begin with...none of this would have happened!!

    Chalk it up to Bush's "flagrant ignorance", but the country he SHOULD have been going after was about 1,200 miles to the east.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    I'm actually pretty curious to see what comes of these elections, but i'm seriously dreading tomorrow...

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    God/dess NinaDaisy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    War is indeed a dirty business. We're not building gingerbread houses, we're killing savages and nihilists that kill for the sake of killing (and 72 virgins or whatever). There are going to be unfortunate side effects to that process. This is not unique to this war.

    If they'd stop shooting at us, we'd leave already.
    Savages?

    Oh my GOD! You have got to be kidding me.

    Has it occurred to you that they wouldn't be shooting at us if we hadn't invaded their country illegally, er, I mean "liberated" them?

    Besides, the "72 Virgins" crap was spouted by the Saudis (note, NOT Iraqis) who actually flew the planes into the WTC.

    But if you're using terms like "savage" to describe a bloody little girl whose parents were just murdered in front of her, I guess all the brown people might as well be the same, right?
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

    Ernest Hemingway on writer, aviation pioneer and horse trainer Beryl Markham


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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Why was mommy and daddy killed???
    I cant seem to find it in the story,just the crying baby.

    I dont see a Kill Bill 3 in the making.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Areyou kidding ??? It doesn't matter what her parents were doing !( at least it doesn't matter to those of us- IMO- with hearts and souls anyway) She is sitting there with her parent blood all over her ! I'm so sure she is going to be "grateful" and love Americans-- NOT !

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Has it occurred to you that they wouldn't be shooting at us if we hadn't invaded their country illegally, er, I mean "liberated" them?
    Has is occurred to you that Iraq was in Material Breach of UN Security Council Resolution 687 since 1991, and that under the terms of the cease-fire settlement, we could have legally invaded the country at any point thereafter considering Iraqi provocations and continued failure to comply? Yes, WMD was a stupid advertising campaign (as is the War on Terror nomenclature) given that Iraq had already given us all the legal standing we needed to invade them by repeatedly violating the cease-fire agreement.

    Savages?

    Oh my GOD! You have got to be kidding me.
    It's not savagery to drive car bombs into markets and schools because they might be a polling place? It's not savagery to debus and execute unarmed Iraqi policemen? It's not savagery to behead Iraqis that work in political campaigns or execute them in intersections? We're talking about two kinds of people here, Nina, and you know that: Baathists and Sunnis. They stand to lose the most from a successful Iraqi government--regardless of its composition--because now they're going to be the low man on the totem pole. These savages are killing more Iraqis now than Americans, not only because it's much easier to do, but because they weren't living in some harmonious Islamic paradise before the US invaded--they have civil strife all their own which has nothing to do with Western interests. This will be borne out when the US and UK draw down. Removing Western forces from the equation is only a solution to violence in Iraq if you're a slobbering drunken tard like Ted Kennedy who's used to cutting and running a la Chappaquiddick.

    Is is tragic that kids are left as orphans to an unfortunate incident or several such incidents? Sure. But you put yourself behind a gun on patrol and see how you respond to threats. Suddenly humanitarian motivations that look good on paper are less important than acting in self-preservation.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Why was mommy and daddy killed???
    I cant seem to find it in the story,just the crying baby.

    I dont see a Kill Bill 3 in the making.
    They didn't stop when told to. Apparently is was dark and they didn't see the guy signal or something. Good thing the kids didn't get killed, at least.


    "In Tall Afar, a generally pro-American area in the north, a patrol of the Stryker Brigade shot up a car that approached them and didn't stop, the driver apparently oblivious to the soldiers' instructions in the dark. Mom and Dad were killed in the front seat, leaving six blood-splattered, but mostly unhurt, orphans in the back. "They did everything they could to warn the vehicle to stop," said military spokesman Lt. Col. Steve Boylan. "In a perfect world, it wouldn't happen. But we're not in a perfect world."

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Sure have been LOTS of tactical, strategic, and policy mistakes on our side in this WAR. Lay them all at the feel of Bush, Rumsfeld, and the others running wild among their evangelistic naievity.

    War is always a sloppy operation. Not many Iraquis are responsible for the insurgency. However, it is their country and everyone should recognize that their population will have the most casualties.

    Every succeeding war has and will have a greater precentage of civilian casualties. This is why war should be a regrettable LAST resort. Not fun and games for the most controversial administration this country has ever had, at least in the scope of internationalism.
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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Seems to me if my memory serves me correctly we have had issues with this region of the country since the Carter Administration but every year since then it has escalated to this point this all just didnt happen . What did we do to deserve what happend on our own soil the first wtc bombing ? Was GWb even a Governor then ?? As a country we again seem to be divided close to down the center on world opinions I wonder why ? Isnt this what caused our civil war ?

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    To put it far too simply, our civil war was caused by economics - urban of the North, agrarian of the South - politics - federalist of the north, states rights of the South - and morality - antislavery of the North, proslavery of the South.

    We shouldn't have gone into Iraq, which is a country that has visited far more brutality upon itself and others than we will. Iraq cheerfully caused over a million deaths in its war with Iran. When it looked like they might lose, they then tossed poison gas onto Iranian soldiers. They invaded Kuwait, killed and raped at whim, and when driven out of the country, they caused an environmental disaster out of spite by setting the oilfields alight. (I firmly believe that they only reason they didn't gas our troops is because they feared what the U.S. hammer could really do in retaliation.) They then poison-gassed thousands of Kurds in their country and imprisoned, tortured, and murdered their own citizens by the thousands over the next decade.

    Now you have the remnants of brutality kidnapping, beheading, suicide-bombing, and remote-bombing us and their own fellow citizens - but mostly their fellow citizens. These are horrible, horrible people we're talking about against whom we started this messy war.

    Yeah, we should've just let them wallow in their own shit and eat their own young, metaphorically speaking. But now that we're there, let's hope we can leave it better than we found it. But we don't have a good grasp on what really drives the people in this area or their many different values, and we've got a lot of assets invested in a side war while the real enemies who attacked us are still prowling around the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and who knows where else.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    For some reason people seem to totally lose sight of the fact that despotic regimes like Saddam's typically had no problem whatsoever killing hundreds of thousands of their own people ... however these acts received little publicity or public outcry, particularly from the UN. For example, it's entirely possible that had the coalition not deposed Saddam, that not only might the exact same two parents have already been tortured and killed by Baathists, but all the children as well, plus grandparents, cousins, and the family dog.

    In this particular case, the outcome was indeed tragic. However, the exact circumstances of the incident are not known - i.e. the reason that the parents refused to stop at the roadblock a few days before a national election, during which time Baathists and other extremists were proven to have been trying to implement car bomb attacks. While we'll probably never know, it's very possible that this particular car was loaded with C4 and by following standing orders the soldiers who shot the parents while trying to run the roadblock they may have indeed saved many additional lives.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    For some reason people seem to totally lose sight of the fact that despotic regimes like Saddam's typically had no problem whatsoever killing hundreds of thousands of their own people ...

    and some people seem to have no issue and even support GW ordering the mass murder of 100,00+ and that is just the number of those dead so far--Saddam was in power for a longtime and yes he killed and tortured many ,many people in that time and yet GW has killed hundereds of thousands in just 3 years Before this is over I predict GW will have ordered the deaths of more Iraqi's that even Saddam did.

    Saddam was evil and wrong and so is GW.

    Evil is evil no matter what flag it sits under.

    this particular car was loaded with C4 and by following standing orders the soldiers who shot the parents while trying to run the roadblock
    ^ TOTAL and complete LIE.

    There is no evidence to support that theory AT ALL.
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 01-30-2005 at 12:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap
    They didn't stop when told to. Apparently is was dark and they didn't see the guy signal or something. Good thing the kids didn't get killed, at least.
    Sorry they got killed,glad the kids survived.

    Glad an american at a check point shot first then asked questions later.
    As trained.

    When the driver didnt stop when commanded,they INSTANTLY become the enemy.A Hostile enemy with a weapon!

    Do you think there is a man woman or child in that country,and every surrounding country,who DONT know what a road block is???

    When armed men tell you to stop,Stop means stop.
    The uniforms of the guys telling them to stop has changed,thats it.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Evil is evil no matter what flag it sits under.
    You espouse such platitudes and then of course suggest we do nothing, even if it is in our national interest.

    You must be SW's Ambassador to the UN?
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    I just realized that what happened to this child parents ( and god knows how many other kids) maybe yet another violation of the Geneva Rules (Depending on what happened to the child after her parents were unjustly murdered) that the US is bound to follow.

    Art.24. The Parties to the conflict shall take the necessary measures to ensure that children under fifteen, who are orphaned or are separated from their families as a result of the war, are not left to their own resources, and that their maintenance, the exercise of their religion and their education are facilitated in all circumstances. Their education shall, as far as possible, be entrusted to persons of a similar cultural tradition.

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    Just poking my head in the door here.. They apparently did take all six children to the hospital for treatment. It's documented in the full narrative story by the photo journalist, in his pictures. One of the boys had a flesh wound where a bullet grazed him. The other children were treated for other minor things, but also for obvious severe trauma.

    You can access the photo journalist's thingy on the right hand side of the article. I tried to paste the link, but it's not a direct one, it's a popup slideshow type-thing and shows no address bar.

    I was pretty saddened by the picture alone when I first saw it. And then, of course, we found out that she was one of six children, who were riding in the backseat of the car. It's extremely sad, no matter what. The children lost their parents. But on the other hand, the parents really should have stopped when they were ordered to. Checkpoints are very common there, and I'm sure the citizens are used to them.

    It's still very sad.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiannon
    I was pretty saddened by the picture alone when I first saw it. And then, of course, we found out that she was one of six children, who were riding in the backseat of the car. It's extremely sad, no matter what. The children lost their parents. But on the other hand, the parents really should have stopped when they were ordered to. Checkpoints are very common there, and I'm sure the citizens are used to them.

    It's still very sad.
    Yes it is very sad.

    I do not feel it was a justified action considering there were numerous children present . I have a hard time believeing there was no other alternative.

    I think this was a case of over zealous soliders using extreemly poor judgement. For me this story is a case of murder and it is my hope that the men involved will being punished by the MP.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    This is war and people are dieing,to include kids.
    We learned many years ago that a bomb strapped to a 5 year old kills just as well as if mommy and daddy carried it themselves.
    These men are trained to say stop,then shoot.Doesnt matter if its two adults or 6 kids.

    In Iraq ,where kids blow themselves up almost daily,i have no problem with this standard operating procedure.
    When they say stop,i dont care if its a man ,woman,child,old person with a walker.or a nun in a habbit,they better stop.
    The best reason i can give is because EVERY soldier is trained to shoot when they dont stop,cry and feel bad about it tomorrow,ALIVE.

    Im not baiting btw,the comment was so insulting to our military that it deserved a tad bit of sarcasim.
    What would you think American military men did with the kids??
    Do you even have a doubt??

    And trust me,TL doesnt need you guys riding in on a white horse to save her,she can hold her own in poo.

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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark W.
    Yes it is very sad.

    I do not feel it was a justified action considering there were numerous children present . I have a hard time believeing there was no other alternative.

    I think this was a case of over zealous soliders using extreemly poor judgement. For me this story is a case of murder and it is my hope that the men involved will being punished by the MP.
    Soldiers are not police officers.

    A lot in the blue party like to think they can use soldiers as just well armed police officers, but they are simply not police officers. ROE says stop cars that refuse to stop, that is what you do.

    I don't think it is a big secret to anyone out there that to make a mistake is to be dead - on coalition, terrorist, and civilian sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    Yeah, we should've just let them wallow in their own shit and eat their own young, metaphorically speaking. But now that we're there, let's hope we can leave it better than we found it. But we don't have a good grasp on what really drives the people in this area or their many different values, and we've got a lot of assets invested in a side war while the real enemies who attacked us are still prowling around the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and who knows where else.
    This is the bottom line, with some boldface added to reflect my somewhat stronger feelings about the issue. We just shouldn't be there at all.

    Those poor kids...

    Who knows what their parents were thinking? Didn't they hear the warning shots? Were they simply pissed off that they couldn't drive to drop off the kids at grandma's house, or what? Apparently they might not have seen the soldiers with their darkened camo uniforms, or so the article states...

    "Fuck 'em, we're not stopping for those assholes, we're just minding our own business!"
    "Someone's shooting! Drive faster! Get out of here!"
    "What was that?! I can't hear anything with all these kids screaming back there!"

    We'll never know what they were thinking. There sure as shit wasn't any C4 in the car, or we would've heard all about that.

    It is tragic, but you get a bunch of jittery troops out there, some of whom might not be too happy about dealing with Iraqis in the first place, and car bombs going off every damned day, and this is bound to happen.
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    Default Re: Free.... to be Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark W.
    I have a hard time believeing there was no other alternative.
    I couldn't agree more !

    Djoser makes the following good points as well:

    Who knows what their parents were thinking? Didn't they hear the warning shots? Were they simply pissed off that they couldn't drive to drop off the kids at grandma's house, or what? Apparently they might not have seen the soldiers with their darkened camo uniforms, or so the article states...

    "Fuck 'em, we're not stopping for those assholes, we're just minding our own business!"
    "Someone's shooting! Drive faster! Get out of here!"
    "What was that?! I can't hear anything with all these kids screaming back there!"
    This is either a case of murder or manslaughter, depending on the intent of those particular soliders.

    I also agree ( obviously) that we should not have been in Iraq to begin with- at least not under the circumstances that Bush illegaly took us there anyway.
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 02-01-2005 at 12:24 PM. Reason: removing quote that didn't make sense after edit

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