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Thread: How do you feel about Jane ?

  1. #1
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    Default How do you feel about Jane ?

    .



    This is for all the kids born in the 70's who do

    not remember, and didn't have to bear the
    burden that our fathers, mothers and older
    brothers and sisters had to bear.

    Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the
    "100 Women of the Century."

    Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still
    countless others have never known how Ms.
    Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country,
    but specific men who served and sacrificed
    during
    Vietnam.




    The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot.
    The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat.
    In 1968, the former Commandant of the USAF
    SurvivalSchool l was a POW in Ho Lo Prison
    the "
    Hanoi Hilton."
    Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell,
    cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's, he was
    ordered to describe for a visiting American
    "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane
    treatment" he'd received.




    He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and was

    dragged away.
    During the subsequent beating, he fell forward
    on to the
    campCommandant's feet, which
    sent that officer berserk.




    In 1978, the Air Force Colonel still suffered from

    double vision (which permanently ended his
    flying career) from the Commandant's frenzied
    application of a wooden baton.


    From 1963-65, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the
    47FW/DO (F-4E's). He spent 6 years in the
    "Hanoi Hilton",,, the first three of which his
    family only knew he was "missing in action".
    His wife lived on faith that he was still alive.
    His group, too, got the cleaned-up, fed and
    clothed routine in preparation for a
    "peace delegation" visit.
    They, however, had time and devised a plan to
    get word to the world that they were alive
    and still survived. Each man secreted a tiny
    piece of paper, with his Social Security Number
    on it, in the palm of hi! s hand.

    When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a
    cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each
    man's hand and asking little encouraging
    snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed
    babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane
    treatment from your benevolent captors?"
    Believing this HAD to be an act, they each
    palmed her their sliver of paper.
    She took them all without missing a beat. At the
    end of the line and once the camera stopped
    rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs,
    she turned to the officer in charge and handed
    him all the little pieces of paper.





    Three men died from the subsequent beatings.

    Colonel Carrigan was almost number four
    but he survived, which is the only reason we
    know of her actions that day.


    I was a civilian economic development advisor
    in
    Vietnam, and was captured by the North
    Vietnamese communists in
    South Vietnam in
    1968, and held prisoner for over 5 years.


    I spent 27 months in solitary confinement; one
    year in a cage in
    Cambodia; and one year
    in a "black box" in
    Hanoi.
    My North Vietnamese captors deliberately
    poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a
    nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South
    Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the
    Cambodian border.
    At one time, I weighed only about 90 lbs.
    (My normal weight is 170 lbs.)

    We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals."
    When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by
    the camp communist political officer if I would
    be willing to meet with her.




    I said yes, for I wanted to tell her about the real

    treatment we POWs received... and how
    different it was from the treatment purported by
    the North Vietnamese, and parroted by her as
    "humane and lenient."




    Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky

    floor on my knees, with my arms outstretched
    with a large steel weights placed on my hands,
    and beaten with a bamboo cane.



    I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda
    soon after I was released. I asked her
    if she would be willing to debate me on TV.
    She never ans
    These first-hand experiences do not exemplify
    someone who should be honored as part
    of "100 Years of Great Women."
    Lest we forget..." 100 Years of Great Women"
    should never include a traitor whose hands are
    covered with the blood of so many patriots.






  2. #2
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Although Jane Fonda's attitude toward the victimized POWs was unforgivable (to me), this particular story is untrue.

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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Hanoi Jane.

    She will always be the enemy and not allowed in my house,in any form.

    What she did prompted Federal LAWS being passed to prevent this kind of person from ever screwing this country that bad again.

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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    Although Jane Fonda's attitude toward the victimized POWs was unforgivable (to me), this particular story is untrue.

    http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp
    Thanks for the material there are so many write ups on this , I tend to agree with you that she did not represent an American very well , I fully and appreciate peace efforts but dont crosss the enemy lines to make a point .

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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Jane Fonda is a wonderful person who stands up against the wrong doings of government. I applaud her for not being amoung the brainwashed and weak minded and/or heartless - like so many of those who take issue with her statements.

  6. #6
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    Jane Fonda is a wonderful person who stands up against the wrong doings of government. I applaud her for not being amoung the brainwashed and weak minded and/or heartless - like so many of those who take issue with her statements.
    By that standard, Senator John McCain, a former POW who was tortured, is brainwashed and weak-minded and/or heartless.

    Here's an excerpt from snopes.com:

    ...when American POWs finally began to return home (some of them having been held captive for up to nine years) and describe the tortures they had endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese, Jane Fonda quickly told the country that they should "not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars." Fonda said the idea that the POWs she had met in Vietnam had been tortured was "laughable," claiming: "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest," she asserted. She told audiences that "Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players. These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law."

    By denying the obvious in favor of her own political views, Jane Fonda showed herself to be brainwashed, weak-minded and heartless. She also lent support to the torture of American POWs by never admitting the undeniable truth. You're either for torture or not?

    I'd gladly trade in 10,000 Jane Fondas for one Joan Baez. I have no problem with Vietnam protesters - I didn't care much for that nutcase of a war, either. But that's no reason to vilify the people who were sent there and did their duty as they were told to do and suffered for it.

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Anything having to do with Jane Fonda and this country is going to be extremely controversial. I can guarantee you that.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    I applaud her for not being amoung the brainwashed and weak minded and/or heartless - like so many of those who take issue with her statements.
    It makes me chuckle to think of you supporting Jane Fonda.

    I dont have a problem with her statements,she was an american and can say what she wants.
    Calling POW's liars after the flight to freedom operation is even ok in my book,she is intitled to her wack job opinions as sure as the next guy.

    But she went behind enemy lines.
    She sat on weapons and got her pic taken.
    (weapon used to kill americans)
    She even took them money!!!

    How many bullets did she buy that ended up as an american on the wall??

    When she first put out her workout video,she couldnt sell shit.
    So her tv station hubby put her on his tv station for a "pity party,im sorry"telethon.
    It was sick.
    But it made the headlines.
    Her video started selling.
    Sad.

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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    By that standard, Senator John McCain, a former POW who was tortured, is brainwashed and weak-minded and/or heartless.


    .
    I respectfully disagree Jay.

    Jane Fonda never said ALL -- she only opposed the treatment of those who were in fact mistreated. And some were most certianly mistreated.

    John McCain is one of the few Repubs these days who is worthy of respect.

    Notice how often he disagrees with Bush ? Alot, that is because he has a spine- a tough one.

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    Notice how often he disagrees with Bush ? Alot, that is because he has a spine- a tough one.

    Gotta ask,did you vote for him???

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    Veteran Member myssi's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Jane apologized and disavowed her own actions in Hanoi in 1988 and again in 2000 as
    the linked page states...
    so she's negated the things that Tiger Lilly supports her for and somewhat negated what
    she's criticized for. Do we forgive her since she's admitted her youthful mistakes?
    I also recall that she broke with Ted Turner (in 2001) after she turned to god and became
    "born again". I guess she's "weak-minded."
    In light of this, will the above posters now flip their support/opposition?

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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    I support her opposing the mistreatment of POW's. She never said she changed her mind and now supports mistreatment of POW's so sorry but there's no flip flop.

    Sure she could have expressed herself differently back then and she may regret that-- but she doesn't regret opposing the mistreatment of POW's.And I like her for standing up to the government. She was far from alone either. Alot of people opposed that war and some of the things that happened .

    Go ahead and hate me for not approving of violence if you want, doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me.

  13. #13
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    Quote Originally Posted by myssi
    Jane apologized and disavowed her own actions in Hanoi in 1988 and again in 2000 as the linked page states...
    Not quite, at least by the snopes.com article:

    In 1988, sixteen years after denouncing American soldiers..., Fonda met with Vietnam veterans to apologize for her actions. It's interesting to note that this nationally-televised apology ... came at a time when New England vets were successfully disrupting a film project she was working on. It's also interesting that not only was this apology delivered sixteen years after the fact, but it has not been offered again since. ... Finally, in an interview in 2000, almost thirty years after the fact, Fonda admitted: "I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft carrier, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless."

    She didn't apologize for saying tortured American POWs were war criminals and liars. She didn't retract her statements that they were never tortured at all.

    There may have been an "indiscretion," but it was not "youthful." She was 34 years (three point four decades) old at the time. Older than most posters on this board.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    I support her opposing the mistreatment of POW's. She never said she changed her mind and now supports mistreatment of POW's so sorry but there's no flip flop.
    As I understand that statement, that is correct. She said there was no torture applied to American POWs. She still refuses to admit that it occurred. She therefore supports that torture that undeniably occurred. I've heard that you're either for torture or against it. She obviously is willing to look the other way when it happens to American soldiers. That is support.


    And I like her for standing up to the government. She was far from alone either. Alot of people opposed that war and some of the things that happened.
    Just because I opposed the war doesn't mean that I approved the mistreatment of American (or any other) POWs or supported the enemy who was killing Americans, as did Jane Fonda. The difference is fairly obvious.

    When I referenced Joan Baez earlier, it wasn't random. Ms. Baez then went on to be activist in the genocidal regime of Pol Pot in Cambodia (Kampuchea), who went on free murderous rein, killing millions, while America yawned, the troops withdrawn from Vietnam. This yawning was both from conservatives and liberals. Good for Joan.

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    Default Re: How do you feel about Jane ?

    I agree about Joan.

    But I really think Jane was speaking out like so many others did, against what she thought was wrong and that I support .

    And this isn't really intended for Jay- just want to make that clear first-- But
    I really don't understand why I have to defend my opposition of violence over and over -- I am growing very tired of having to defend my not enjoying people suffering. However, being tired isn't going to stop me from expressing that opposition or sharing info and article I come across either. That is exactly what supporters of war want though-- they want to wear people like me dwn so we will just shut up and let them go on with the murder and torture (or support of) without having the truth of what they are and/or are doing being exposed very often or even at all.

    But I can promise that will never happen. There will always be good people who will oppose violence whether the supporters of murder and torture like it or not.

    You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees.
    An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil.
    A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul.

    -- Gandhi
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 01-30-2005 at 11:55 PM.

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