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Thread: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

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    Veteran Member devilsadvocate667's Avatar
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    Default Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Call yourself Christian, then slash the budget for programs for the poor and elderly.

    Call yourself the party of law and order, then slash the budget for fire and police.

    Call yourself patriotic and that you "support the troops", then slash veteran's benefits.

    Almost every liberal I know is more of a Christian than even the most supposedly religious conservative.

    What did Jesus teach us? To respect our fellow man, not to do harm to him in any way. How do republicans run campaigns; lies, brutal character assassinations, hate.

    He taught us to not seek our rewards on earth, to not be seduced by the lure of material possessions. What do cons do? Everything to get more, to have more. Destroy others in order to benefit themsleves... cause "HEY that's capitalistic free market economics. If you don't like it, move to Commie Cuba"

    He taught us to not worry or want for our own personal advancement, material gain or profit, but to take care of those in lesser situations than us. To help the poor until it hurts. What do republicans do? Cut programs for the poor, cut taxes for the wealthy, spend on themselves, call programs the benefit the least amoung us "socialism".

    I find nothing Christianly or moral about the American right in any way shape or form. I only see; hate, greed, self interest, lies, hypocrisy...

    The pathetic thing is that most atheists I know have more Christian traits than most conservatives who call themselves Christian. Cons whine so much about God being on their side, that they fail to think of if they are on his side.

    WHat is an abomination is that these "Christians" do more damage to actual Christianity than all the atheists and "Hollywood liberals" combined. Most for the reason that outsiders want nothing to do with the lies, hate and hypocrisy of these representatives of the religion.

    I find it very difficult to trust a conservative when they say anything. They seem to be always lying, or on some publicity stunt to get support for their absurd policies.


  2. #2
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    How about an nonChristian conservative?

    They seem to be always lying, or on some publicity stunt to get support for their absurd policies.

    Man, that's how I feel about politicians in general.

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    Veteran Member devilsadvocate667's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    They seem to be always lying, or on some publicity stunt to get support for their absurd policies.
    Man, that's how I feel about politicians in general.
    OK, LOL! You got me there! I distrust anyone who would want to be a politician. Cause to throw yourself into that lifestyle and make yourself a target for rabid pundits... you'd have to be insane!


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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    You won't find many people more outraged by the alliance of large and important elements of the republican party with the religious right than myself.

    This to me is the most dangerous threat since WWII to this 'freedom' and 'democracy' we hear bandied about by one of the most prolific spouters of moralistic gibberish in years.

    But I also heard a lot of gibberish a few years back, when I was elected to participate in the Democratic Caucus for Austin, Texas.

    It was completely revolting, and after about four hours of complete and utter bullshit--except thankfully nothing about Jesus or the evils of porn--I knew I could never be a democrat.

    Time for a third party.
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    Veteran Member myssi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    There are many third, etc. parties already.

    I don't know what 'slashing the budgets of fire and police' is about. That's not a federal
    responsibility if that's what someone thinks.

    If anyone wants to actually read the proposed FY 2006 budget, here's the link:
    http://bookstore.gpo.gov/market/05-03.html
    you can buy the printed volumes or download them free or purchase CD ROMs or read them
    at a local depository library. Old budgets back to 1997 are available as well.
    The GPO has a lot of other cool things you can get:
    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/databases.html
    Perhaps you might find something interesting there.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    I'm not especially religious. However, I can't help but notice that some liberals seem to want to have it both ways. Dj expresses outrage at, "the alliance of large and important elements of the republican party with the religious right". devilsadvocate667 attacks republicans for not being "christian" enough to suit her. So Dj complains that republicans are too religious, devilsadvocate667 says that they are not religious enough. Well which is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    Call yourself Christian, then slash the budget for programs for the poor and elderly.
    We've spent trillions of dollars on social programs over the years. At what point do we start asking ourselves if all of this money is doing any good? How much would be enough? What if we increased the budget 200%? Hell why not just give every poor person $50k. That should solve the poverty problem, right? The government has spent itself so deep into debt already that it will never get out. But somebody tell me the dollar amount that would eliminate poverty. I say that if we've spent all this money already and there are still all these "poor" people, then maybe there is a limit to what the government can do. Maybe some of these peole just need to take responsibility for themselves for once in their life. There are any numbers of reasons people are poor. Some drink too much, some do drugs, some are so poorly educated by the government-run schools that they have no chance at a decent job. Hell, some are just plain lazy, and yes some are truly down on their luck. But any poor person in the U.S. already enjoys a higher standard of living than the middle class does in pratically all of the rest of the world. Enough already.

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    Call yourself the party of law and order, then slash the budget for fire and police.
    With the exception of agencies such as the FBI, fire and police protection have always been, and always should be, paid for at the local level. I happen to think that the officers that patrol the streets probably have a better idea of what a community needs than some beauracrat in Washington.

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    Call yourself patriotic and that you "support the troops", then slash veteran's benefits...I find it very difficult to trust a conservative when they say anything. They seem to be always lying, or on some publicity stunt to get support for their absurd policies.
    Like I said, I'm not very religious so I won't debate you on what Jesus did or did not say. However, I'm pretty sure he was telling his followers to do those things, not the government. So because Jesus said this stuff, you want to raise my taxes to pay for it? What if I'm an atheist? Do I have to pay more taxes because you think we should implement what a religious leader said as government policy? If you want to put Jesus's teaching into action, go right ahead, with your own money, but don't ask me to pay for it. Funny how democrats get all mad when republicans quote the bible to justify their opposition to gay marriage, but then will turn around and quote the bible to justify more spending on social programs which makes the republicans mad. We don't live in a theocracy. Neither Democrats or Republicans have any business quoting the bible to justify their own polices or to criticize the other's.

    Personally, I happen to enjoy, "the lure of material possessions." You know what else? I do, worry over my own personal advancement, and I even enjoy some, some, "material gain or profit" on occasion, though not as much as I would like. And you know what, that's my own damn business. If you want to follow what you understand Jesus taught people to do and show republicans what true christianity is all about, that's great. Just don't try to make me pay for it. That's hypocrisy.
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    Veteran Member devilsadvocate667's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    What you fail to realize and fail to see through your veil of ignorance is that YES social programs do work. Social programs are part of what prought us through the depression and insured that is doesnt happen again. We have a relatively low poverty rate because of the social programs.

    If you don't pay for it with social programs, you'll pay for it in other ways;
    Eliminate welfare; cause an air of desperation for the vast majority of those who are on it because they are not employable. Eliminate social security and we'll go back to the 50% of elderly who were under the poverty line. Eliminate Medicare and Medicaid and people will use the emergency room as general health care and the emergency operation will jsut be abosorbed into higher health care costs. Eliminate all of them and cause the desperate to resort to crime in order to survive. Oh, and above all; make damn sure you eliminate abortion so the population exponentially grows and all the current and future problems that result from irresponsible conservative failures become unmanageable.

    Yeah Destiny, just watch out for your short term gains and fuck yourself over for the long term. Sell out the nation's future for some magic beans!


    BTW- Europe and Canada has many more social programs than we do. You know what? THey are kicking our asses economically. Even if the US tabulated the unemployment rate the same way the EU does.


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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    ...BTW- Europe and Canada has many more social programs than we do. You know what? THey are kicking our asses economically. Even if the US tabulated the unemployment rate the same way the EU does.
    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    ...BTW- Europe and Canada has many more social programs than we do. You know what? THey are kicking our asses economically. Even if the US tabulated the unemployment rate the same way the EU does.
    Please see the following, paying particular note to what is stated re: Germany and Italy.

    Article

    The equivalent of Social Security in Germany is described as "unsupportable" while in Italy it is described as "unsustainable."

    Kicking our asses economically? Somehow, I don't think so...as to the euro rising as high as it has against the dollar, that seems to be intentional on the part of the current administration, possibly to make it easier to export U.S. goods/services to Europe. howeveeer, since I can't read the minds of the people in the administrationi, I can't be sure of that. The flip side, of course, is imports to the U.S. are now more expensive. Because of this policy, some U.S. individuals/companies/corporations win, and others lose, as it has always been andd always will be.

    PhaedrusZ

  9. #9
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    What you fail to realize and fail to see through your veil of ignorance is that YES social programs do work.
    The ones that were reduced or eliminated under Clinton? (Which the Republicans should have been thankful for, instead of impeaching him.)


    Europe and Canada has many more social programs than we do. You know what? THey are kicking our asses economically.
    That, surely, is highly debatable.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    What you fail to realize and fail to see through your veil of ignorance is that YES social programs do work. Social programs are part of what prought us through the depression and insured that is doesnt happen again. We have a relatively low poverty rate because of the social programs.
    I wonder if Jesus went around calling people ignorant? Like I said, I'm not that familar with his teachings, maybe he did. Funny how you berate conservatives for their "unchristian" ideas about social welfare spending, then when I point out that this a democracy, not a theocracy, you change your tune to one of, well, "social programs do work." Well okay, same song, second verse, never mind if social welfare spending is christian, is it effective? So I'll ask again, if these social programs are working so wonderfully, how come we still have all these "poor" people around? It's been almost 40 years since Lyndon Johnson proclaimed "war on poverty". If after 40 years we've yet to win the war, it's not cold-hearted or un-christian to ask if maybe a change in tactics isn't in order. How many more trillions of dollars would it take to end poverty in this country? How much would Jesus spend on Medicaid? And am I the only one that see's how ridiculous it is to be asking that?

    World War II ended the great depression, spending on social welfare did not. A strong ecomony, low tax-rate, and less government regulation is what will keep another great depression from occuring again, not more money for Medicare. Our low poverty rate is due to our strong economy, not spending on welfare. What all our spending on welfare has given us is "poor" people that enjoy a lifestyle that is the envy of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    If you don't pay for it with social programs, you'll pay for it in other ways;
    Eliminate welfare; cause an air of desperation for the vast majority of those who are on it because they are not employable. Eliminate social security and we'll go back to the 50% of elderly who were under the poverty line. Eliminate Medicare and Medicaid and people will use the emergency room as general health care and the emergency operation will jsut be abosorbed into higher health care costs. Eliminate all of them and cause the desperate to resort to crime in order to survive. Oh, and above all; make damn sure you eliminate abortion so the population exponentially grows and all the current and future problems that result from irresponsible conservative failures become unmanageable.
    I get my nails done by a lady who moved here from the Ukraine. I love her accent. She works hard, loves america, owns her own business, can't wait to become a citizen. I've met tons of people from mexico and other latin american countries, even some african countries. They feel blessed just to be living here, to be pursuing the american dream. The only time I sense any "air of desperation" is when I'm around people that are the beneficiaries of the social welfare system. Perhaps there's something about sponging off of others that brings that on?

    You seem to insist that it's either/or. Either the government takes care of people or they starve etc. Here's a thought, how about if people started taking care of themselves? Why can't people plan for their own retirement and not mooch off the younger workers? Why can't people get their own health insurance, or god forbid, pay for their own doctor visit not depend on the government? Now I am definitely not opposed to helping people out that are truly in need. But government assistance should be a last resort. Why do people have to look first to the government?

    Here's a news flash for you, people commit crimes because they are criminals, not because they are desperate. If the sole reason for criminal activity is economic necessity, they explain Enron to me. To say that economic distress causes crime is an insult to ever working poor person in the country, the majority of which would never think of turning to crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    BTW- Europe and Canada has many more social programs than we do. You know what? THey are kicking our asses economically. Even if the US tabulated the unemployment rate the same way the EU does.
    This statement is so laughable I'm tempted not to even bother. By any measure you choose, the economic might of the U.S. is greater than that of the european countries combined. The United States has about 5% of the world's population, yet produces roughly 25% of the world's goods. You do the math. We are the richest country in the world, and quite possibly in history precisely because we have not pursued the endless welfare spending that most of the nations in europe have.
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Actually Europe is doing better economically these days than the US-- a fact often ignored by many rightwingers

    some reading on the subject :
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 02-09-2005 at 02:34 PM.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Well the United Nations doesn't seem to think so. From, "World Economic Situation and Prospects, 2005", published by The United Nations:

    Among the developed countries, performance was more varied. Growth was strong in North America, moderate in Japan but weak in Europe. With the exception of its new members and a few other countries, the European Union has replaced Japan as the lagging economy. A modest cyclical acceleration is expected in these slow-growing countries in 2005 but growth will still languish around 2 per cent.


    Additionally, it seems even the french are beginning to realize that there is a real economic cost to their famous social programs of numerous days off, and shorter work weeks.


    PARIS, Feb 9 (AFP) - The French National Assembly on Wednesday approved a reform of the controversial 35-hour working week - the Socialist measure introduced to cut unemployment but which is blamed by the right for doing exactly the reverse... The centre-right government of Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin says the aim is to restore the work ethic in France and give people the right to "earn more by working more."...

    Wow, that sounds almost like an american idea.
    Shhh don't tell the French.

    For the left, the reduced working week was a mechanism for sharing out the nation's available labour among more people and thus bringing down unemployment - which did indeed fall during a period of strong economic growth until 2002.

    But the government has the backing of the business lobby when it argues that the change has put up the cost of hiring staff, scared off international investors and is in fact helping sustain France's stubborn jobless rate of nearly 10 percent...

    FYI: The unemployment rate in the U.S. in January was 5.2%, about half that in France.

    Coming shortly after three days of street protests by state sector unions, Saturday's demonstrations suggested growing public discontent at France's sluggish growth and the strains caused by adaptation to the global economy.

    Yes, it would be nice if the government could legislate prosperity for all of us. Unfortunately, we have to go out and work for it.
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    Veteran Member devilsadvocate667's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    I wonder if Jesus went around calling people ignorant?
    Ignorant isn't an insult, it's an observation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    So I'll ask again, if these social programs are working so wonderfully, how come we still have all these "poor" people around? It's been almost 40 years since Lyndon Johnson proclaimed "war on poverty".
    Because we still have conservatives throwing a wrench in the war. The war on porverty and social security was never designed to cure poverty or eliminate it. That is impossible. It was designed to alleviate some of the suffering involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    World War II ended the great depression, spending on social welfare did not.
    Errr... whatever you say there. The depression was more or less tapering off by the time the US entered the war in 1941. But believe whatever you want, I think you will anyway!

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    A strong ecomony, low tax-rate, and less government regulation is what will keep another great depression from occuring again, not more money for Medicare.
    LOL! Funny how there aren't any serious economists that agree with your clap trap! The 1st thing about a low tax rate is that you don't typically do that when you have two major wars going on. You also don't lower taxes when you have a 7 trillion and growing debt. You also dont lower taxes when you owe nearly 1 trillion in debt to communist China. Keep believing in the propaganda of the GOP, it's FAR from reality!

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Our low poverty rate is due to our strong economy, not spending on welfare. What all our spending on welfare has given us is "poor" people that enjoy a lifestyle that is the envy of the world.
    Are you aware that the number of people below the poverty line has increased since the two large tax cuts Bush implemented? Pesky facts. I'm sure you'll ignore that as well!


    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    The only time I sense any "air of desperation" is when I'm around people that are the beneficiaries of the social welfare system. Perhaps there's something about sponging off of others that brings that on?
    Are you denying that there are people in the US that are not employable or are unable to work for some reason? I suppose you'd rather they die or commit crimes? It sounds like you would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    You seem to insist that it's either/or. Either the government takes care of people or they starve etc.
    Ummm... noooo! You are going off on bizzare typical conservative tangents now. The majority of welfare recipients now are unable to work or are unemployable. People like you ignorantly think that all you have to do is sign up for welfare and say "gimme a check dammit". It's a very detailed and difficult process to go through. It's not as simple as the crazy right paints it to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Here's a thought, how about if people started taking care of themselves?
    And the people that can't...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Why can't people plan for their own retirement and not mooch off the younger workers? Why can't people get their own health insurance, or god forbid, pay for their own doctor visit not depend on the government? Now I am definitely not opposed to helping people out that are truly in need. But government assistance should be a last resort. Why do people have to look first to the government?
    LOL! Most people dont look to government 1st. Most people look to government last. Are you aware that before Social Security, we had over 50% of the elderly under the poverty line? Are you aware that even now about 33% of Americans have no health insurance? I see you dont give a shit. As long as you get yours, fuck the rest of the country. I see your type every day. A very small percentage of what you makes goes to benefit the least amoung us, but that's too much. The benefit of greater society and the ultimate strength of the nation as a whole mean much less to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Here's a news flash for you, people commit crimes because they are criminals, not because they are desperate.

    Ummm... you have twisted or misrepresented everything I have posted. Either you are unable to understand, or you are being dishonest. What do you think would happen if you took away all social programs that benefit people unable to work? Give it some thought. How do you think they would survive if they are unable to work" DOnt just knee jerk react as you have all along, think about it. I really dont want to hear your response. THINK!


    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    This statement is so laughable I'm tempted not to even bother. By any measure you choose, the economic might of the U.S. is greater than that of the european countries combined.
    The EU is essentially self sufficent/ They carry little debt (compared to percentage of debt vs GNP the US has), even though they have such "evil" social programs. they don't outsource like we do. They dont rely on foreign manufacturing like we do. They dont sell their debt to foreign nations like we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    The United States has about 5% of the world's population, yet produces roughly 25% of the world's goods.
    Really? What exactly do we produce? Go to Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart... where ever. Tell me what percentage of American made products are in those stores. Conservatives are selling out long term strength for short term profits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    You do the math. We are the richest country in the world, and quite possibly in history precisely because we have not pursued the endless welfare spending that most of the nations in europe have.
    LOL! Actually, it has nothing to do with the lack of social programs and everything to do with the rise of the middle class. Pay workers beyond a living wage and they have disposable income to spend beyond their necessities. Which means they will more likely spend money on extras. This propels the economy. Not the wealthy, not stingieness, not cutting taxes... giving the middle and lower class more money does. THey drive business. They drive profits. They drive the eocnomy. But the current GOP don't recognize that.


  14. #14
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    The war on porverty and social security was never designed to cure poverty or eliminate it. That is impossible.
    Here's the quote from Lyndon Johnson on March 16, 1964, that was the first shot fired in the War on Poverty:

    "Because it is right, because it is wise, and because, for the first time in our history, it is possible to conquer poverty, I submit, for the consideration of the Congress and the country, the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964."

    I added the italics, obviously.

    But believe whatever you want, I think you will anyway!
    Lot of that going around.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
    Ignorant isn't an insult, it's an observation.
    Okay, so I guess Jesus did go around calling people ignorant. I never claimed to be a theologian.

    Because we still have conservatives throwing a wrench in the war. The war on porverty and social security was never designed to cure poverty or eliminate it. That is impossible. It was designed to alleviate some of the suffering involved.
    So instead of a "war on poverty" it is really more of a "police action", sort of like Vietnam. Well that explains why we are not winning it then.

    Errr... whatever you say there. The depression was more or less tapering off by the time the US entered the war in 1941. But believe whatever you want, I think you will anyway!
    Hmmmm....one would think that hundreds of thousands of men being employed by the armed forces combined with a huge number of women going to work in defense plants would have a pretty significant impact on the unemployment rate. But I could be wrong.

    LOL! Funny how there aren't any serious economists that agree with your clap trap! The 1st thing about a low tax rate is that you don't typically do that when you have two major wars going on. You also don't lower taxes when you have a 7 trillion and growing debt. You also dont lower taxes when you owe nearly 1 trillion in debt to communist China. Keep believing in the propaganda of the GOP, it's FAR from reality!
    No, what is funny is how liberals can on the one hand complain about the deficit and then on the other hand complain that we are not spending enough money.

    Are you aware that the number of people below the poverty line has increased since the two large tax cuts Bush implemented? Pesky facts. I'm sure you'll ignore that as well!
    Some pesky facts from the Bureau of Labor Statistics: Thus, some people, such as those who are retired or those whose incomes are only temporarily low, may be classified as poor based on income but do not have low consumption. Furthermore, the official poverty rate does not account for taxes or in-kind transfers such as food stamps or government provided medical insurance, which improve living conditions without affecting a family's official poverty status. So there you go, straight from the government, we could spend a trillion dollars a month fighting poverty and it wouldn't change the number of people living "in poverty" one bit because the government doesn't count it in their numbers. Some more pesky facts: ...nearly 40 percent of all households with incomes below the official poverty line own their own homes...The median value of homes owned by the poor is 58 percent of the median value of all homes owned in the United States...only 8 percent of poor households are over crowded (defined as more that one person per room), and 53 percent of poor households have some type of air conditioning. Now, I would never say that there are not people in this country that are having tough times. But in general, poor people in this country live a lifestyle that is the envy of the world.

    Are you denying that there are people in the US that are not employable or are unable to work for some reason? I suppose you'd rather they die or commit crimes? It sounds like you would.
    Nope, not denying it a bit. But to what extent is that their own fault? Are you telling me that every single person on the unemployment rolls is there through no fault of their own? If someone wants to stay up all night smoking dope it's fine by me. But most employers are funny, they want their workers to show up sober most every work day. Where I get a little ticked is when liberals want to raise my taxes to give to the pot heads that have gotten fired.

    Ummm... noooo! You are going off on bizzare typical conservative tangents now. The majority of welfare recipients now are unable to work or are unemployable. People like you ignorantly think that all you have to do is sign up for welfare and say "gimme a check dammit". It's a very detailed and difficult process to go through. It's not as simple as the crazy right paints it to be.

    And the people that can't...?
    What about the minority? Right there you are admitting that there are people on the welfare rolls that shouldn't be. I've stated several times, I have no problem helping people truly in need. But by your own statement, there are people that should not be getting government help.

    LOL! Most people dont look to government 1st. Most people look to government last. Are you aware that before Social Security, we had over 50% of the elderly under the poverty line? Are you aware that even now about 33% of Americans have no health insurance? I see you dont give a shit. As long as you get yours, fuck the rest of the country. I see your type every day. A very small percentage of what you makes goes to benefit the least amoung us, but that's too much. The benefit of greater society and the ultimate strength of the nation as a whole mean much less to you.
    Hmmmm... you sure seem to think you know a lot about me. Actually, I've worked in the urban inner city with kids. The reason I feel the way I do is not that I'm uncaring, it's that I've seen the futility of most of these government programs. Liberals remind me of the story "The Emperor's New Clothes". Dare to question whether these social welfare programs actually achieve the goals they promise, try suggesting that perhaps there might be a better way, ask someone what we have to show for decades of effort and trillions of dollars and what to do you hear? You're ignorant, you don't give a shit. That's really interesting coming from someone that started the thread quoting Jesus Christ.

    Really? What exactly do we produce? Go to Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart... where ever. Tell me what percentage of American made products are in those stores. Conservatives are selling out long term strength for short term profits.
    Actually I prefer to shop at Target rather than Wal-mart. Their prices are almost as low, and their store is a little nicer. So what if my thongs are sewn in China? The fact is there are not many americans willing to sew thongs at a price I am willing to pay. As long as we're travelling, lets go to the airport. Where were the planes built? How about a hospital, how many of the drugs, the CAT scan machines, all the other medical equipment was produced in the U.S.? Not to mention computers and other high-tech equipment. Personally, I'd much rather live in a country filled with high-tech entrepeneurs rather than a bunch of thong-sewers.

    LOL! Actually, it has nothing to do with the lack of social programs and everything to do with the rise of the middle class. Pay workers beyond a living wage and they have disposable income to spend beyond their necessities. Which means they will more likely spend money on extras. This propels the economy. Not the wealthy, not stingieness, not cutting taxes... giving the middle and lower class more money does. THey drive business. They drive profits. They drive the eocnomy. But the current GOP don't recognize that.
    Government doesn't create wealth and a high standard of living. To the extent it takes more than is necessary through an oppressive tax code, government impedes the creation of wealth. If the government can legislate prosperity, what happened to the Soviet Union?
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

  16. #16
    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    I'm not especially religious. However, I can't help but notice that some liberals seem to want to have it both ways. Dj expresses outrage at, "the alliance of large and important elements of the republican party with the religious right". devilsadvocate667 attacks republicans for not being "christian" enough to suit her. So Dj complains that republicans are too religious, devilsadvocate667 says that they are not religious enough. Well which is it?
    I don't want it both ways.

    The majority of people, such as myself, who are frightened about the serious religious right influence in government are not worried about republicans being religious enough.

    Please don't attack my views by using those of another member to discredit them, like we are one and the same.

    I still like you, BTW...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

  17. #17
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    I don't want it both ways.

    The majority of people, such as myself, who are frightened about the serious religious right influence in government are not worried about republicans being religious enough.

    Please don't attack my views by using those of another member to discredit them, like we are one and the same.

    I still like you, BTW...
    There are a lot of conservatives who think the religious groups have to much of a hold on the republican party also.

    The two parties are walking into extremes... it is a train wreck for the country happening in slow motion since Clinton's mid second term.

  18. #18
    Veteran Member devilsadvocate667's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    You know what I've learned from discussing politics? No matter how articulate your presentation, no matter how correct you are and dead on with your logic, you cannot change what people believe in. No matter what logic and evidence you provide, people will always just dig the heels in deeper.


    This fact alone is why both parties play up to the center in elections. This is why both side pretends they are moderate. The base will never change, it's evident by just about every political conversation that has ever happened.

    If Freud was correct in saying that personality and belief are pretty much set by age 5 and little else of significance as far as ego changes, there is little anyone can do to change the core of people's beliefs. You may be able to sway people on certain issues, but the core of who people are will not be changed (or I should say is extremely difficult to change).

    I guess I learned that the hard way by trying to get through to people with logic. The real world doesn't react to logic, it reacts to emotion and self interest.

    Has the element of human nature changed over the ages? Are the elements that made German citizens support Hitler, or the Salem witch trials, or made the fuedal system possible, or made slavery possible long gone with the people that created them?

    Thanks for the discussion.


  19. #19
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    And of course, just because your logic is different than others doesn't mean it's superior.

    I believe the reasons that the parties appeal to the center, or moderates, is 1) that's where the majority lies and 2) they are the people who can be swayed by arguments, as opposed to the core ideologues on each side who are already in each party's hip pocket.

  20. #20
    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    I don't want it both ways.

    The majority of people, such as myself, who are frightened about the serious religious right influence in government are not worried about republicans being religious enough.

    Please don't attack my views by using those of another member to discredit them, like we are one and the same.

    I still like you, BTW...
    Hey Dj I didn't mean to attack your beliefs and I apologize if it came across that way.

    What I meant to do was to point out was what I see as the split personality of liberalism as a whole in the country. Some liberals say that public religion has no or little place in a country founded on the premise of separation of church and state. (I'd tend to agree with this to a large extent BTW). Other liberals want to argue for increased spending on social programs by appealing to christian doctrine. To me, these types are just as scary as the religious right demanding prayer in schools and stuff like that.

    BTW, you're still the cutest liberal on SW
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

  21. #21
    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more conservative moral hypocrisy

    If Freud was correct in saying that personality and belief are pretty much set by age 5 and little else of significance as far as ego changes, there is little anyone can do to change the core of people's beliefs. You may be able to sway people on certain issues, but the core of who people are will not be changed (or I should say is extremely difficult to change).
    This theory in non-Freudian circles is also called the Basic Assumptions principle. By possessing a relatively concrete paradigm of how the world and the people in it work--your basic assumptions at a very fundamental level--your perspective is skewed accordingly. Naturally, this principle presumes environmental and cognitive conditioning beyond age five, but before the onset of adulthood.

    I'm not much of a Freudian, but the comparison is nevertheless valid.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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