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Thread: States Eye Stem Cell Research

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    Default States Eye Stem Cell Research

    High hopes that hefty investments will lead to cures and profits
    By Roland Jones
    Wall Street reporter
    MSNBC
    Updated: 6:48 a.m. ET Feb. 9, 2005

    [Excerpt]

    With millions of dollars in stem cell research grants soon to be up for grabs, California is starting to look a lot like El Dorado for medical researchers and investors. And now a handful of other states, including New Jersey, Wisconsin and New York, are racing to catch up with the Golden State, mindful of the health and economic benefits that stem cell funding could bring.

    "Everyone’s rushing to put together a stem cell program,” says Andrew Cohn, a spokesperson for the University of Wisconsin-Madison’s Alumni Research Foundation, which holds the patents for the university’s stem cell discoveries. “People recognize that this field of study has incredible potential, not only to cure disease, but also as an economic tool.”

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847933/
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    This topic never ceases to amaze me. In California's case at least, this amounts to taxing the citizens an extra 3 billion dollars per year, then turning around and handing that money to medical research corporations, which they use to pay high salaries to very white collar medical researchers. I say cut out the middle man and just hand the researchers big welfare checks !

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    It never ceases to amaze me how commonplace the "more for me and fuck everyone else" attitude that this topic brings out in so many conservatives-- I mean gee why in the world would we want to spend money on medical research for all of mankind when we could be spending it on trying to make it illegal for gays to get married

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    I mean gee why in the world would we want to spend money on medical research for all of mankind when we could be spending it on trying to make it illegal for gays to get married
    Well, that was certainly a loaded comment. I'll refrain from pointing out in detail that billions in gov't money have been spent on aids research, which over the last decade primarily benefitted a small minority of gay male Americans who overwhelmingly favor one particular political party/philosophy.

    At any rate, the point was that so far four states are making an intensive effort to institute PARALLEL = DUPLICATE STEM CELL RESEARCH - meaning that the gov't will be spending money to pay for at least four different research groups in four different states to be conducting exactly the same lines of research ! Please explain how this arrangement would result in superior/faster research results, other than by the "1 million monkeys sitting at typewriters" theory. As a taxpayer in one of the states in question, I simply don't want to see my tax money wasted to provide more subsidized 'political' white collar jobs with little hope that the money spent will produce superior/faster research results.

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Well, that was certainly a loaded comment. I'll refrain from pointing out in detail that billions in gov't money have been spent on aids research, which over the last decade primarily benefitted a small minority of gay male Americans who overwhelmingly favor one particular political party/philosophy.

    At any rate, the point was that so far four states are making an intensive effort to institute PARALLEL = DUPLICATE STEM CELL RESEARCH - meaning that the gov't will be spending money to pay for at least four different research groups in four different states to be conducting exactly the same lines of research ! Please explain how this arrangement would result in superior/faster research results, other than by the "1 million monkeys sitting at typewriters" theory. As a taxpayer in one of the states in question, I simply don't want to see my tax money wasted to provide more subsidized 'political' white collar jobs with little hope that the money spent will produce superior/faster research results.

    oh yes how could I forget??? The horror of Aids research which btw benifits mostly HETEROSEXUALS because most + people are HETEROSEXUALS like us. But I know that fact is ignored by so many rightwingers so I won't waste much time on that tonight.

    It takes a real big person with a real big heart (NOT) to oppose medical research that benifits everyone on the planet in one way or another. I mean certianly that money could be better spent on things like free boob jobs for military or how about corrinations for the King -- err I mean President. Or even just getting an extra $50 back in taxes-- Yeah that's a much better idea than trying to find cures for disease

    culture of life my ass-- and that concludes my comments
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 02-10-2005 at 01:13 AM.

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    oh yes how could I forget??? The horror of Aids research which btw benifits mostly HETEROSEXUALS because most + people are HETEROSEXUALS like us. But I know that fact is ignored by so many rightwingers so I won't waste much time on that tonight
    I'm not ignoring this fact ! As a US taxpayer, I'm paying for it i.e. GWB's 15 billion dollar program to treat AIDS patients in africa where heterosexual patients do indeed outnumber gay patients. However in the USA the gays have a clear majority in this area per CDC data.

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    This entire issue was never about stem cell research... only about taxpayer paid corporate
    welfare. Every company is free to research stem cell whatever... they just want the tax
    money so we have to pay for it. Whenever people whine 'they're against research' I think
    what lying cowards that don't want to admit it's just about the money. I don't see much
    tax money, certainly not billions, being spent debating gay marriage (as far as I'm concerned
    let's abolish marriage/marriage licenses entirely: if you want a ceremony, go to a church/temple
    of some kind, get big brother out of it). Since California voted to spend their money on
    research (which might help everyone... liberal and conservative alike) then that's fine. But no
    company is entitled to welfare... and that goes for milk and agricultural subsidies too.
    A company that developes a good AIDS drug is going to make money, and plenty of companies
    are willing to risk some money to spend on research on their own. The proper role of
    government is to legislate protection of intellectual property and get out of the way.

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    Quote Originally Posted by myssi
    This entire issue was never about stem cell research... only about taxpayer paid corporate
    welfare. Every company is free to research stem cell whatever... they just want the tax
    money so we have to pay for it. Whenever people whine 'they're against research' I think
    what lying cowards that don't want to admit it's just about the money. I don't see much
    tax money, certainly not billions, being spent debating gay marriage (as far as I'm concerned
    let's abolish marriage/marriage licenses entirely: if you want a ceremony, go to a church/temple
    of some kind, get big brother out of it). Since California voted to spend their money on
    research (which might help everyone... liberal and conservative alike) then that's fine. But no
    company is entitled to welfare... and that goes for milk and agricultural subsidies too.
    A company that developes a good AIDS drug is going to make money, and plenty of companies
    are willing to risk some money to spend on research on their own. The proper role of
    government is to legislate protection of intellectual property and get out of the way.
    While I agree with everything myssi said, there is one thing I wanted to add.

    In Africa, the U.N. and the governments there brought political pressure on the companies making drugs that fight AIDS to give away their patents on them. To me this is a very dangerous precendent. What is the incentive for a company to spend milions of dollars to find a cure for a terrible disease if you are going to be coerced into giving it away?

    While californians are free to do what they want (and will) I think the whole government funded plan is stupid. Amost all government programs are filled with waste and corruption. Anybody old enough to remember the stories about the $700 hammers? The private sector, properly motivated by the promise of a reasonable profit can do a much better job.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    At any rate, the point was that so far four states are making an intensive effort to institute PARALLEL = DUPLICATE STEM CELL RESEARCH - meaning that the gov't will be spending money to pay for at least four different research groups in four different states to be conducting exactly the same lines of research ! Please explain how this arrangement would result in superior/faster research results, other than by the "1 million monkeys sitting at typewriters" theory.
    Exactly.

    Duplication of effort does not create better, faster or more beneficial results. These states would be better off saying they're going to permit and fund examination and exploration of completely different lines.

    Every company is free to research stem cell whatever... they just want the tax
    money so we have to pay for it.
    Truth. Not much different than professional sports teams looking to build stadiums for teams that suck on the backs of taxpayers.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    ...professional sports teams looking to build stadiums for teams that suck on the backs of taxpayers.
    I have always hated this...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    Everytime I hit a pothole in Seattle, I curse Paul Allen, Howard Allen and all the other pigs feeding at the trough for $880 million...for two teams that suck, and against the wishes of the electorate that voted it down.

    But specific to Seattle, it couldn't have happened without the acquiesence of Gary Locke, the Benedict Arnold of the state.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    professional sports teams looking to build stadiums for teams that suck on the backs of taxpayers
    Actually, the subsidized stem cell situation is even worse than the subsidized sports stadiums. At least where the stadiums and pro sports teams are concerned, attracting sports fans to town creates lots of peripheral business for local hotels, restaurants, cabbies, bars etc. - not to mention food and beverage wholesalers. Subsidized stem cell research companies aren't going to have these positive secondary economic effects.


    In Africa, the U.N. and the governments there brought political pressure on the companies making drugs that fight AIDS to give away their patents on them. To me this is a very dangerous precendent. What is the incentive for a company to spend milions of dollars to find a cure for a terrible disease if you are going to be coerced into giving it away?
    Actually, that 'dangerous precedent' may be chapter one in a play book to transition from drug company financed research to gov't subsidized research + gov't regulated drug companies + gov't regulated health care providers + gov't health insurance - or to use one phrase, socialized medicine.

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    stem cell research companies aren't going to have these positive secondary economic effects.

    No positive secondary effects in finding cures or treatment for disease ??????

    what a fucking joke

    I'm not even going to touch that ABSURD comment any further than to point out how stupid it is ( IMO )

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    Default Re: States Eye Stem Cell Research

    No positive secondary effects in finding cures or treatment for disease ??????
    If you'll reread my post, it said secondary ECONOMIC effects. By definition, if four states are conducting parallel research, only one state is going to find the cure meaning that the other three states receive zero peripheral economic effects. Also, even for the one state that does find the cure, the extent of their economic benefit would probably be limited to sale of the patent or ongoing licensing fees from a drug company which is in all likelihood located in a different state or country. Thus the production of a new drug will create jobs, tax revenues and corporate profits which primarily benefit a state or country which didn't have any role in funding the successful research. You'll notice that the four states in question are all BLUE states with high taxes, high labor costs and strict regulations - the LAST places on earth a drug company would choose to build a new pharmaceutal plant ! More likely than not, if one of the states does discover and license a 'miracle cure', 10,000 pharmaceutical workers in India will be saying 'thank you' to the state taxpayers who funded the research which created their new jobs !

    And the whole premise of this example of course assumes that a foreign research group, a private research group or a federally funded agency like the CDC doesn't find the cure first, in which case all four states wind up with a big fat zero !

    You'll undoubtedly rake me over this next point also, but it does need to be pointed out. Just because someone conducts successful research which leads to the development of an effective 'miracle drug', this does NOT mean that the 'miracle drug' is cost effective or practical. Take for example Fuzeon, the only effective drug for certain forms of AIDS, which is in very limited supply and which typically costs $20,000 per course of treatment per patient. There is simply no way, for example, that African AIDS patients are going to receive this drug because there simply isn't enough money on the entire continent of Africa to pay for it (even if Africa's political leaders cared enough about their own people to want to do so). After the UN precedent of forcing drug companies to give up AIDS drug patent rights, no major drug company is going to be willing to invest billions of dollars in additional pharmaceutical plant capacity to produce the drug in greater quantities either.

    !~
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-11-2005 at 04:14 PM.

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