Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 44

Thread: NYTimes Op-Ed

  1. #1
    Banned
    Joined
    Jan 2003
    Location
    B.C & USA
    Posts
    1,869
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default NYTimes Op-Ed

    Torture, American Style

    By

    Published: February 11, 2005 (boldface by me)



    aher Arar is a 34-year-old native of Syria who emigrated to Canada as a teenager. On Sept. 26, 2002, as he was returning from a family vacation in Tunisia, he was seized by American authorities at Kennedy Airport in New York, where he was in the process of changing planes.


    Mr. Arar, a Canadian citizen, was not charged with a crime. But, as Jane Mayer tells us in a compelling and deeply disturbing article in the current issue of The New Yorker, he "was placed in handcuffs and leg irons by plainclothes officials and transferred to an executive jet."

    In an instant, Mr. Arar was swept into an increasingly common nightmare, courtesy of the United States of America. The plane that took off with him from Kennedy "flew to Washington, continued to Portland, Maine, stopped in Rome, Italy, then landed in Amman, Jordan."

    Any rights Mr. Arar might have thought he had, either as a Canadian citizen or a human being, had been left behind. At times during the trip, Mr. Arar heard the pilots and crew identify themselves in radio communications as members of "the Special Removal Unit." He was being taken, on the orders of the U.S. government, to Syria, where he would be tortured.

    The title of Ms. Mayer's article is "Outsourcing Torture." It's a detailed account of the frightening and extremely secretive U.S. program known as "extraordinary rendition."

    This is one of the great euphemisms of our time. Extraordinary rendition is the name that's been given to the policy of seizing individuals without even the semblance of due process and sending them off to be interrogated by regimes known to practice torture. In terms of bad behavior, it stands side by side with contract killings.

    Our henchmen in places like Syria, Egypt, Morocco, Uzbekistan and Jordan are torturing terror suspects at the behest of a nation - the United States - that just went through a national election in which the issue of moral values was supposed to have been decisive. How in the world did we become a country in which gays' getting married is considered an abomination, but torture is O.K.?

    As Ms. Mayer pointed out: "Terrorism suspects in Europe, Africa, Asia and the Middle East have often been abducted by hooded or masked American agents, then forced onto a Gulfstream V jet, like the one described by Arar. ... Upon arriving in foreign countries, rendered suspects often vanish. Detainees are not provided with lawyers, and many families are not informed of their whereabouts."

    Mr. Arar was seized because his name had turned up on a watch list of terror suspects. He was reported to have been a co-worker of a man in Canada whose brother was a suspected terrorist.

    "Although he initially tried to assert his innocence, he eventually confessed to anything his tormentors wanted him to say," Ms. Mayer wrote.

    The confession under torture was worthless. Syrian officials reported back to the United States that they could find no links between Mr. Arar and terrorism. He was released in October 2003 without ever being charged and is now back in Canada.

    Barbara Olshansky is the assistant legal director of the Center for Constitutional Rights, which is representing Mr. Arar in a lawsuit against the U.S. I asked her to describe Mr. Arar's physical and emotional state following his release from custody.

    She sounded shaken by the memory. "He's not a big guy," she said. "He had lost more than 40 pounds. His pallor was terrible, and his eyes were sunken. He looked like someone who was kind of dead inside."

    Any government that commits, condones, promotes or fosters torture is a malignant force in the world. And those who refuse to raise their voices against something as clearly evil as torture are enablers, if not collaborators.

    There is a widespread but mistaken notion in the U.S. that everybody seized by the government in its so-called war on terror is in fact somehow connected to terrorist activity. That is just wildly wrong.

    Tony Blair knows a little about that sort of thing. Just two days ago the British prime minister formally apologized to 11 people who were wrongfully convicted and imprisoned for bombings in England by the Irish Republican Army three decades ago.

    Jettisoning the rule of law to permit such acts of evil as kidnapping and torture is not a defensible policy for a civilized nation. It's wrong. And nothing good can come from it.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member myssi's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    341
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Torture, Canadian style...
    Canada has not had to confront issues of this sort since the nightmarish images of Canadian soldiers torturing and killing a Somali teenager in 1992.
    [A 16-year-old, Shidane Arone, was tortured and murdered on the base. One of the soldiers involved took "trophy" pictures of the torture.]
    http://www.wpni.com/wp-srv/inatl/lon...malia07397.htm
    http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/waymac/...lia_affair.htm

    A report by the Canadian commission inquiring into the role Canadian officials in the CSIS
    and RCMP had in the Arar case is supposed to come out this month.
    http://www.ararcommission.ca/eng/index.htm

    In the meantime, while we wait for that, here's something else for Canadians to think about:

    Getting Canada off the torture train: the cases of five Muslim men held indefinitely behind bars in Canada shed light on Canada's intention to violate the convention against torture
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...28/ai_n6260682

    Here's part of the story:
    Shameful treatment in a Canadian jail

    Typical of Mahjoub's treatment is the way prison authorities responded to his illness on Dec. 14, 2003, when he collapsed on the floor in pain, experiencing double vision, dizziness, sweating and headache. The guards refused to allow a nurse to enter the cell and check his blood pressure, and demanded Mahjoub get up and walk out. He was in such pain that he could not move, so they ended up hauling him out of the cell and dragged him 100 metres, not to the health unit but to solitary confinement. A nurse asked guards to call 911 to take Mahjoub to the hospital, but they ignored this request.

    "My head was banging against the guards' feet," Mahjoub recalled in court. "One of the guards said this is not the way to treat an inmate." While the guards joked that Mahjoub was upset at the capture of Saddam Hussein earlier that day, he wound up on the floor of a solitary cell, screaming in pain and receiving no treatment. He was given no mattress or blanket, and instead thrown a security gown that remained on the floor overnight.

    In another case...Canada to deport Lebanese
    Seven Lebanese are scheduled today for deportation from Canada into the hands of terrorists likely to imprison, torture or kill them, say activists working on their behalf...
    http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41988

    There is no place for torture in our world. It dehumanizes, it degrades and it inflicts intense pain. It does not make us, any of us, any more secure.

  3. #3
    God/dess NinaDaisy's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Manhattan
    Posts
    3,432
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    God Bless America.

    Oh, the shame. Oh, the complacency.

    I'm awaiting the "you have to break a few eggs to make omelettes" folk.
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

    Ernest Hemingway on writer, aviation pioneer and horse trainer Beryl Markham


  4. #4
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    I'll reserve any comments until the New Yorker or whatever news agency makes public exactly what types of activities Mr. Arar has been previously involved in - i.e. my opinion on such treatment will differ greatly depending upon whether or not Mr. Arar is truly an innocent Canadian citizen versus whether Mr. Arar has been discovered via CIA/Military intelligence to have played a significant and destructive role in Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist activities in the past, thus potentially possesses information which could lead to the foiling of future Islamic Fundamentalist terror attacks. Unfortunately we'll probably never receive that sort of info ... not from the New Yorker at least !

  5. #5
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Virginia countryside.
    Posts
    3,299
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Exactly what does a guy gotta do to get put on a world wide terrorist watchlist??

    This story is drama filled,from one side, in an attempt to sell newspapers.

    Canada is another Cambodia.A magical line that cant be crossed by americans under attack.(at least not openly)
    We know they are up there,we just cant go get them right now.
    But as a suggestion...
    If your a terrorist,or hang out with alot of them,dont change flights in the United States.

  6. #6
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Canada is another Cambodia. A magical line that cant be crossed by Americans under attack.(at least not openly)
    An interesting observation to say the least !

  7. #7
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default more info on this case

    This could get nasty for the US.....lots of articles found by Google. Here's one.

    Democracy Now!

    Friday, January 28th, 2005
    U.S. Claims Maher Arar "Extraordinary Rendition" Lawsuit Jeopardizes National Security

    The U.S. government is attempting to dismiss a lawsuit brought by Canadian citizen Maher Arar, claiming the litigation would jeopardize national security. Arar was jailed by the U.S. and secretly deported to Syria where he was held for almost a year without charge and repeatedly tortured.

    The U.S. government is attempting to dismiss a lawsuit brought by Canadian citizen Maher Arar, claiming the litigation would jeopardize national security.


    Two years ago the Syrian-born software engineer was detained by US official while on a stopover in New York. He was then jailed and secretly deported to Syria. He was held for almost a year without charge in an underground cell not much larger than a grave where he was tortured. Time Magazine in Canada recently named him the country's newsmaker of the year.

    The Centre for Constitutional Rights launched Arar's lawsuit last January alleging that outgoing attorney-general John Ashcroft, former homeland security secretary Tom Ridge and other officials within President Bush's administration knew Arar would be tortured when he was deported. Arar alleges he was a victim of the US government's controversial "extraordinary rendition" policy of sending suspects to countries that routinely use torture in their prisons to circumvent local laws.

    The US government is attempting to have the lawsuit dismissed. Invoking the rarely used "state secrets privilege" the Justice Department claims that any release of information on Arar could jeopardize "intelligence, foreign policy and national security interests of the United States."

    In a moment we're going to take a look at his case with Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, but first we wanted to play an interview we did with Maher Arar in November 2003 -- a few weeks after he was freed by Syrian officials. He joined us on the line from his home in Canada.

    • Maher Arar, Democracy Now! interview, November 7, 2003.
    Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights. He is the author of Guantanamo: What the World Should Know and his writings appear in a new book by Seven Stories press titled America's Disappeared: Secret Imprisonment, Detainees, and the "War on Terror." Last week he was awarded the Columbia Law School's Medal for Excellence, the university's highest award to its alumni.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  8. #8
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Here's more...
    Letter to Department of Defense General Counsel Haynes


    November 17, 2003

    Mr. William J. Haynes, II
    General Counsel
    Department of Defense
    1600 Defense Pentagon
    Washington, DC 20301-1600

    Dear Mr. Haynes:

    We are writing to you to express our deep concern over the reported role of United States officials in transferring a Canadian citizen, Maher Arar, to Jordan with the understanding that he would then be turned over to Syria. Mr. Arar alleges that he was brutally tortured by Syrian authorities over a period of 10 months. As you may be aware, these allegations are contained in a front-page story on November 5, 2003 in the Washington Post. Mr. Arar claims that he strenuously protested being handed over to Syria and expressed the strong fear that he would be tortured there. We urge you to investigate his allegations, to report publicly on your findings, and to hold accountable any US officials who may have violated US law and human rights commitments in his case.

    On June 26th in a statement commemorating UN Torture Victims Recognition Day, President Bush pledged that the United States is leading the fight against torture by example. He called upon all governments to join the United States in “prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture….” These statements reinforced the even more specific assurances you provided in your letter to Senator Leahy on June 25, 2003 stating that “United States policy is to obtain specific assurances from the receiving country that it will not torture the individual being transferred to that country. We can assure you that the United States would take steps to investigate credible allegations of torture and take appropriate action if there were reason to believe that those assurances were not being honored.”

    Independent of these pledges, the United States has obligations under both the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment or Punishment and US law to refrain from sending any individual to a country where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being tortured. The United States has long protested the use of torture in Syria. Indeed, in the President’s November 6th speech to the National Endowment for Democracy he specifically mentioned the problem of torture there.

    We urge the Administration to make good on these pledges and comply with its legal obligations by swiftly and thoroughly investigating this case and taking appropriate action against those responsible if the allegations prove correct. If Mr. Arar was in fact treated in the way he describes, it raises very serious questions over whether US officials have violated United States legal obligations and the President’s pledges. In addition, either US officials failed to obtain the “appropriate assurances” you discussed in your letter to Senator Leahy, or the Governments of Jordan and Syria violated those assurances.

    There are many aspects of Mr. Arar’s report that are troubling. First, of course, is the allegation that US authorities actively participated in sending an individual to a country known to use torture when interrogating prisoners despite his fear that there was a substantial likelihood that he would be tortured. This report is similar to earlier reports that US officials participated in the transfer to Syria of a prisoner seized in Morocco. In this case, however, the individual was allegedly detained in the United States and then transported by US officials. It is not clear that even receiving assurances of proper treatment from a government like Syria that has a well-documented record of torturing prisoners would satisfy US obligations.

    Second, it is not clear what legal basis exists for “rendering” an individual to another government in general or in this specific case. Mr. Arar is allegedly a Canadian citizen and resides there. He was reportedly traveling from Tunisia to Canada by way of New York City when US officials detained him and held him for two weeks before flying him out of the country. There is no allegation that he has been charged with or is being sought by any government for having committed a crime. Thus, it does not appear that he was extradited, removed or deported under any of those applicable statutory provisions in US law. In the absence of an express statutory authorization, US officials are not authorized to seize, detain, transport and surrender an individual to a foreign state.

    Third, the Washington Post article quotes anonymous Bush Administration officials who appear to contradict the Administration’s public statements concerning the abuse and rendition of prisoners. In this instance, anonymous officials claim that the United States has engaged in “a lot of rendition activities” and that one of the reasons for these renditions is the desire to place suspects “in other hands because they have different standards….” While we appreciate the Administration’s repeated public assurances that suspects are not being transferred to other countries so that they will be abused in order to extract information from them, the repeated claims of unnamed Bush Administration officials involved in actual cases raise serious questions about whether the President’s policy against torture is being violated in practice. Those concerns are bolstered by the comments of former US intelligence officials, such as Vincent Cannistraro and Robert Baer, who have said publicly that they believe that transferred suspects are being tortured.

    We call on the Administration to undertake a swift and thorough investigation into Mr. Arar’s case and to make public the results of that investigation. We also urge the Administration to investigate and publicly respond to the repeated public claims of past and present intelligence officers that the United States is participating in many prisoner transfers and that transferred prisoners are known to be tortured. Finally, we urge the Administration to end the practice of transferring persons to countries where it cannot effectively assure that they will be free from torture or other mistreatment. We look forward to hearing from you concerning this matter.

    Sincerely,

    William F. Schulz
    Amnesty International USA

    Doug Johnson
    The Center for Victims of Torture

    Ken Roth
    Human Rights Watch

    Gay McDougall
    International Human Rights Law Group

    Gary Haugen
    International Justice Mission

    Louise Kantrow
    International League for Human Rights

    Michael Posner
    Lawyers Committee for Human Rights

    Robin Phillips
    Minnesota Advocates for Human Rights

    Len Rubenstein
    Physicians for Human Rights

    Todd Howland
    RFK Memorial Center for Human Rights




    --------------------


    For the "Conservatives", here's your retort. Amnesty Internation is just a bunch of radicals intent on anarchy over "law and order." This guy must be guilty of something else they wouldn't have bothered touching him. RIGHT?
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  9. #9
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Virginia countryside.
    Posts
    3,299
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: more info on this case

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer
    The Centre for Constitutional Rights launched Arar's lawsuit
    Born is Syria and now a canadian,i fail to see how or where he gets protection under our constitution?
    Seems Syria is this guys problem,not the USA.
    I guess lawsuits against syria dont pay off as well as ones against the USA.

    Fuck this guy,and the plane he flew in on.

    If your a wanted man,and land in the USA,you will be arrested.

    DUH!!!!

    This is poppycock and the guy wont get 2 cents.

  10. #10
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Some people like to justify what people in authority do to others regardless of the degree of stupidity they do it with. The point is that the US uses this technique to torture a confession and information out someone even though such a technique is ILLEGAL.

    Those people shouldn't come crying to us when you get a speeding ticket for going 44 in a 45 mph zone.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  11. #11
    Veteran Member myssi's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    341
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    I think it's pretty clear that Arar is a naturalized Canadian citizen (born in Syria) and is
    probably innocent of any terrorism, etc. What role miscommunication, etc. had in his
    deportation is unclear right now, so let's not assume the worst. But I wonder as well,
    where's the condemnation of countries like Syria, Morroco, Jordan, etc. that are doing
    the torture? Flogging, beheading, and even stoning are not unheard of in Asian and
    Arabic countries even today. Not to mention horrific child labor conditions world wide,
    the trade in slaves which still exists in Africa, and the recruitment of children as combatants.
    Oh the inhumanity.

  12. #12
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Virginia countryside.
    Posts
    3,299
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    Who is it that you are suggesting should be on the suspected terrorist watch ? I have to ask because the first time I read your post I thought you meant the NY Times writer.

    ????
    Thats why im asking.

    I dont know how to put someone on the list.
    I dont know who is on the list.
    I dont know if im on the list.

    Exactly what do you have to do to be added to the list???

    It cant be a list of all the middle eastern people,the list would be to long.
    Its gotta be something else,some other reason to make the list.

  13. #13
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    If they do a cursory name-matching thing and/or worst-case associates matching, they are BOUND to get a big list of wrong names. This isn't rocket science. It is very irresponsible, not to mention unprofessional to act to put someon in a known torture-chamber on this list without some very serious background verification. But when management is out for blood, almost anyone's bood, this can happen.

    Your government in action. Not thought, just action. Isn't that what you wanted?
    Last edited by threlayer; 02-13-2005 at 02:16 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  14. #14
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Back to basics time. Syria is NOT an ally of ours, and GWB is certainly not on the best terms with the Syrian gov't. Yet Mr. Arar was apprehended in NY, transported to Syria, and handed over to the Syrian gov't. Regardless of how crazy some might think our gov'ts actions might be, I guaran-f%^kin-tee you that Mr. Arar was up to something much more serious than tourism otherwise the US gov't would not have wasted the jet fuel and would not have co-operated with the Syrian gov't - his Canadian passport nonwithstanding.

  15. #15
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Back to basics time. Syria is NOT an ally of ours, and GWB is certainly not on the best terms with the Syrian gov't. Yet Mr. Arar was apprehended in NY, transported to Syria, and handed over to the Syrian gov't. Regardless of how crazy some might think our gov'ts actions might be, I guaran-f%^kin-tee you that Mr. Arar was up to something much more serious than tourism otherwise the US gov't would not have wasted the jet fuel and would not have co-operated with the Syrian gov't - his Canadian passport nonwithstanding. I simply don't buy the argument that Mr. Arar was an 'innocent' Canadian.

  16. #16
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Most of the time in N. America, Asia, Europe or Australia
    Posts
    1,337
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Two questions for those who do not consider foreign nationals in the US to be entitled to Bill of Rights protections: What, if any, legal rights should they be considered to have in your opinion? And, for symmetry, what legal rights do you think US citizens should have when traveling or resident in a foreign country?

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  17. #17
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    8,031
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 143 Times in 42 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    I suggest actually reading the New Yorker article; it's very interesting. And I'm sure they'd gladly divulge the suspected activities of the detainees. Arar himself was taken because he knew a guy who was related to a suspected terrorist.

    What's going on here is that the US is sending people to countries knowing they'll be tortured, without notifying the family of what's happened. They're apprehending these people, sometimes in other countries, and loading them onto a jet registered to a dummy corporation, then depositing them in places where human rights don't exist, rather than interrogating them in the US.

    It's pretty well known that if you torture someone, they'll say whatever the torturer wants to hear in order to escape the pain. This makes the validity and usefulness of the information received in this manner questionable at best, completely fabricated at worst. Even the actual bad guys who were tortured gave up false confessions with information that couldn't be substantiated.

  18. #18
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Virginia countryside.
    Posts
    3,299
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Two questions for those who do not consider foreign nationals in the US to be entitled to Bill of Rights protections: What, if any, legal rights should they be considered to have in your opinion? And, for symmetry, what legal rights do you think US citizens should have when traveling or resident in a foreign country?

    -Ww
    Im not sure really.I know when I have been in foreign countries as an american,i must follow all the rules,when in rome kinda thing.
    If ,as an american,i was suspected of a crime,i would be arrested under thier laws.The American embassy can only keep it sorta fair.
    Kinda like the kid who got caned in the far east a few years back.

    Nowhere in the world offers foreign travelers as many freedoms as the USA.
    All ya gotta do is make it here and you instantly get "rights"you didnt have from where you left.
    This isnt a situation thats given to americans,unless you toss in Canada, Ansterdam,and now Spain.

  19. #19
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Virginia countryside.
    Posts
    3,299
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward

    It's pretty well known that if you torture someone, they'll say whatever the torturer wants to hear in order to escape the pain. This makes the validity and usefulness of the information received in this manner questionable at best, completely fabricated at worst. Even the actual bad guys who were tortured gave up false confessions with information that couldn't be substantiated.
    "Pretty well known"?????
    Ummmmmmmmm

    Do you know how long "torture"has been around???

    Im guessing as long as bakers at least.

    It does work,and it works real well.Its even been studied as an art form.(not by me i swear)

    If the person knows something,he will tell you.
    If the person doesnt know anything,he will make shit up.

    The trick is to torture the people who know something and not the ones making it up.
    If you average more "in the knows"then " I dunno's",and it saves American lives,Im ok with ya IMO.

    To bad were not aloud to do it,we would know where Osama is and what time he woke up every morning.

  20. #20
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Two questions for those who do not consider foreign nationals in the US to be entitled to Bill of Rights protections:
    First, your question implies an automatic assumption that participants in the war on terror or any other war are somehow entitled to 'civil' rights as if they had committed some 'civil' crime like robbery or drug running - an issue which is far from automatic, and which has a good deal of precedent along the lines of a military tribunal ordering summary execution !

    Second, if you really want to see what sort of rights foreign nationals are typically granted in foreign countries after commiting 'civil' offenses (let alone associating with terrorists/revolutionaries/perceived threats to the gov't), try getting busted in Mexico just once !

  21. #21
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    8,031
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 143 Times in 42 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Its (sic) even been studied as an art form.(not by me i swear)


    No, I wouldn't ever compare reading your posts to the atrocities people are subjected to during interrogations.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    If you average more "in the knows"then " I dunno's",and it saves American lives,Im ok with ya IMO.
    I'm not. I could never accept the torture of innocent people as a necessary byproduct of the war on terrorism. Detain them and interrogate them, search for actual evidence they're involved in something, but don't kidnap them and send them to countries who will do things that we won't do here.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    To (sic)
    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    bad were(sic) not aloud(sic) to do it,we would know where Osama is and what time he woke up every morning.
    I think you've missed the point, which is that the U.S. has figured out a way to circumvent its own laws, therefore allowing them to use toture by proxy. Torture has been used on suspected terrorists, and we do not in fact know where bin Laden is and what time he wakes up.

  22. #22
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Virginia countryside.
    Posts
    3,299
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

    You do realize that you are condoning and supporting torturing people, right ?
    I think it depends on the situation and the stakes at hand.

    If my child had been kidnapped,and left in a hole.If they caught they guy who took them but he didnt feel like telling them where my kid was,yea im ok with hooking his nads up to an oversized diehard battery.I would be the first in line if volunteers were requested.

    How far would you go to get your kid back???

    Exactly.

    So we all fuckin support torture,we just got gray areas on when and how to use it,and when and not when to get pics taken of it.

    And let's not forget that one of the tactics( which you just spoke in support of) that has been used to get someone to "talk" is shoving a broomstick up the rectum of a man.

    But I guess that is ok, huh ?
    First off,i would not hang out with or be a terrorist,and the moment that guy picked up the broomstick,i would have told him everything he wanted to know.

  23. #23
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Most of the time in N. America, Asia, Europe or Australia
    Posts
    1,337
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Im not sure really.I know when I have been in foreign countries as an american,i must follow all the rules,when in rome kinda thing.
    If ,as an american,i was suspected of a crime,i would be arrested under thier laws.The American embassy can only keep it sorta fair.
    Right, although Americans traveling abroad often feel that they should have the same civil rights they have in the US, the actual fact is that they only have the same rights as ciitizens of that country at best. And, if the US Govt (State Dept) gets involved at all, which quite often it does not, all that it generally requests is that the US ciitzen(s) involved get fair and equal treatment under local laws.

    However, I was asking for opinions about how things ought to be. If we want our citizens to at least be treated equally under local laws when they are abroad, isn't it logical to treat foreigners equally under our laws when they are in the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    First, your question implies an automatic assumption that participants in the war on terror or any other war are somehow entitled to 'civil' rights as if they had committed some 'civil' crime like robbery or drug running - an issue which is far from automatic, and which has a good deal of precedent along the lines of a military tribunal ordering summary execution!
    The prior issue is the determination of whether or not a given person is actually a participant in terrorist activities (or any other "war"). Again, I am asking for opinions. If the person is a US ciitizen in the US, do you think he/she should receive Bill of Rights protection even re this determination or do you think the Government should be able to proceed against him/her (perhaps up to summary execution) based solely on its belief that he/she is participating in such a covert war against the US? And, in either case, do you believe that foreign nationals in the US should have any fewer rights/protections in this regard than our own citizens; if so, why?

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  24. #24
    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    796
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Two questions for those who do not consider foreign nationals in the US to be entitled to Bill of Rights protections: What, if any, legal rights should they be considered to have in your opinion? And, for symmetry, what legal rights do you think US citizens should have when traveling or resident in a foreign country?

    -Ww
    Regardless of race, nationality, known or suspected allegiances and/or associations, and known or suspected activities and/or planned activities, everyone taken into custody while physically in the U.S. should (and I would argue must, by law) be afforded the basic due process rights encompassed in the arraignment process, i.e., have the charges preferred before a neutral magistrate, etc.

    As for U.S. citizens in other countries, you should have whatever rights have been "advertised," so to speak - so, read the fine print before you go! In all seriousness, in most countries it's not a problem, as you're usually allowed to contact the U.S. Embassy and at least afforded an opportunity of some kind (i.e., a hearing) to contest the charges... which is why our attempts to circumvent same are all the more appalling, as we're largely responsible for much of the rest of the world's adoption of same basic standard! Anyway, always research State Department circulars, etc., before traveling abroad - especially if you're going to some of the more out-of-the-way/exotic places, 'cause the bottom line is that you'll only have the rights they've elected to grant you, and if you get in trouble there's often little the U.S. can do to help you.

    As for what rights U.S. citizens "should have," well... personally, I'd like to see some kind of international agreement in this area, wherein all (or at least most) of the nations in the world would at least agree to afford anyone arrested on their soil a couple of basic rights, i.e., the right to notify their own government of their situation and the right to some kind of public hearing. Of course, it's kind of hard for us to expect that of others if we're going to grab people here and spirit them away in secrecy like this!
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
    - Luke
    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
    - Boss, re Luke

    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

  25. #25
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Virginia countryside.
    Posts
    3,299
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Right, although Americans traveling abroad often feel that they should have the same civil rights they have in the US, the actual fact is that they only have the same rights as ciitizens of that country at best. And, if the US Govt (State Dept) gets involved at all, which quite often it does not, all that it generally requests is that the US ciitzen(s) involved get fair and equal treatment under local laws.

    However, I was asking for opinions about how things ought to be. If we want our citizens to at least be treated equally under local laws when they are abroad, isn't it logical to treat foreigners equally under our laws when they are in the US?


    I think they should be exactly as you described and how I also think it pretty much is.
    When in Rome,do as the Romans.

    If someone doesnt like the rules of the house,dont go there.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Bush Tragedy- NYTimes
    By Chrissy68 in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-09-2008, 10:34 AM
  2. NYTimes article on upscale SC
    By Weluckyfew in forum Stripping (was Stripping General)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-15-2004, 05:22 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •