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Thread: NYTimes Op-Ed

  1. #26
    God/dess
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    I read the article it said he was tortured does anyone know how ? He lost weight his eyes were sunken ? They listed the day he was taken into custody but only gives the month of release. I just don't know

  2. #27
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by GnBeret
    Regardless of race, nationality, known or suspected allegiances and/or associations, and known or suspected activities and/or planned activities, everyone taken into custody while physically in the U.S. should (and I would argue must, by law) be afforded the basic due process rights encompassed in the arraignment process, i.e., have the charges preferred before a neutral magistrate, etc.

    ...

    As for what rights U.S. citizens "should have," well... personally, I'd like to see some kind of international agreement in this area, wherein all (or at least most) of the nations in the world would at least agree to afford anyone arrested on their soil a couple of basic rights, i.e., the right to notify their own government of their situation and the right to some kind of public hearing.
    Fwiiw, my answers to the questions I raised are essentially exactly the same as those GB so clearly states in the above quote. So, I won't repeat them in my (sometimes tediously) verbose style.

    But, I am still interested in hearing what others think aboout this (increasingly important) issue.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  3. #28
    Veteran Member myssi's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    You don't need to be a citizen to get protection under parts of the US Consitution as long as
    you're under US jurisdiction.

    Canadians have been guilty of 'torture by proxy' as well (as my referenced links above
    indicate). Probably most nations have. It's not just a US thing. As for torture, Amnesty
    International says that from 1997 through mid-2000, "there were reports of torture or
    ill-treatment by state officials in more than 150 countries. In more than 70, they were
    widespread or persistent. In more than 80 countries, people reportedly died as a result."

    Canada was also cited in 2004 by Amnesty International for torture as was Austria,
    Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Poland,
    Portugal, Romania, Russian Federation, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and even Switzerland.

    We extradite people all the time to face consequences elsewhere... most nations of the world have barbarous justice systems...we need look no further than Mexico.... cited by Amnesty
    Internation for extrajudicial executions/unlawful killings, "disappearances", torture and
    ill-treatment, etc.

    The problem with Amnesty International is that it condems the US because of the
    death penalty and is unable to make obvious distinctions.

  4. #29
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    I would not result to torture- so no, not all people "fuckin" support torture.
    sorry,i have my doubts.
    If our kids hung in the balance,you and I both would be the first one with a pair of vice grips in our hands.
    No way would you not do everything in your power to get your kid back,including torture.You may not start off with it like i would,but if it were the last resort,I think you would be the first swinging a broomstick,in a rapid,thrusting,upward motion.
    Last edited by BigGreenMnM; 02-14-2005 at 11:04 AM.

  5. #30
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Back to basics time. Syria is NOT an ally of ours, and GWB is certainly not on the best terms with the Syrian gov't.... Regardless of how crazy some might think our gov'ts actions might be, I guaran-f%^kin-tee you that Mr. Arar was up to something much more serious than tourism....
    Actually, Melonie, you cannot guarantee this or anything else that you do not directly know about. As much as you'd like to believe our government.

    Fact is that the US govm't KNOWINGLY practiced torture by proxy. So they wouldn't get caught.

    That is the basics on the bottom line.


    This is an NPR interview with Mr Arar..... http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionande...725/cover.html


    And this is from Maher Arar's own web site detailing his experiences with detainmant and torture.... http://www.maherarar.ca/mahers%20story.php

    Hope this does not happen to you or anyone you care for. But it could.
    Last edited by threlayer; 02-15-2005 at 10:14 AM. Reason: add refs
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  6. #31
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Hmmm ... I'll reserve judgement and comment until Mr. Arar agrees to do an interview with Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly or some media outlet which doesn't have a PBS-like vested interest in promoting a liberal agenda.

  7. #32
    Veteran Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    There are all sorts of mental experiments you can do around this problem, but in part it comes down to:

    Would you sacrifice the life of someone innocent (or, in this case, torture them) to save other lives?

    If you would, then you have an obligation to maximize the gain and minimize the pain to the greatest extent possible.

    If you would NOT, then you have to accept the likely results--a more dangerous world and maybe one where more deaths (albeit unspecified) result because you feel icky about taking one or more particular lives.

    I don't think there's any right or wrong answer--I tend to agree that torture is useful and necessary (it may be that 90% of what you get is useless, but it's not so much an issue of what amount is reliable as how much reliable stuff you get in total--a little like working the room and getting 7 lap dances versus selling one to the only guy you ask!).

    I DO feel really squeamish about the way it actually is being conducted--seemingly quite random and often horrifically wrong. But I think it's really hard to do this kind of work well and it's very easy for the worst case scenarios to find their way into the press.
    "All this time you were pretending
    So much for my happy ending."
    --Avril Lavigne

  8. #33
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward
    No, I wouldn't ever compare reading your posts to the atrocities people are subjected to during interrogations.
    ok thats funny!

    I'm not. I could never accept the torture of innocent people as a necessary byproduct of the war on terrorism.
    What people fail to understand is there were no "innocents".It was a war zone.
    In many war zones,in certain areas,everyone is "Guilty"until proven "innocent".
    Its for thier safety and for the safety of the military.
    Detain them and interrogate them, search for actual evidence they're involved in something, but don't kidnap them and send them to countries who will do things that we won't do here.
    So where do you draw the line at "interrogation"??
    If you ask,they gotta tell???
    These are not police interrogating shoplifters or car thieves.

    These are your brothers,sisters,fathers and mothers over there and they ARE looking out for the "Innocents".


    I think you've missed the point, which is that the U.S. has figured out a way to circumvent its own laws, therefore allowing them to use toture by proxy.
    That would be an assumption.It wouldnt surprise me,but at this point,its just guess'n.
    Show me proof or let these guys do thier job without all the bullshit.

    Had this guy been from egypt or africa,and the US deported him to Syria,that might have raised a few eyebrows.
    This guy was syrian,and he was sent to his country of birth,they wanted to talk to him.
    I dont know why,
    but if a whole country wants to talk to you,
    and you are arrested by another whole country,on the way to another whole country,your doing something not right.
    This is more then just"the teacher wants to see you after class"or "run jesse,the sherriff is lookin fer ya!"

    I dont really need to know why the United States felt the need to send this guy home,or why syria wanted him.
    If a mistake was made,prove it.



    Torture has been used on suspected terrorists, and we do not in fact know where bin Laden is and what time he wakes up.
    Thats cause they aint tortured the right people yet.

  9. #34
    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward
    I think you've missed the point, which is that the U.S. has figured out a way to circumvent its own laws, therefore allowing them to use toture by proxy.
    That would be an assumption.It wouldnt surprise me,but at this point,its just guess'n.
    An "assumption"??? Considering the number of instances of this kind of activity that have come to light over the past few months (including at least one where the government has openly acknowledged its actions), "open secret" would be more like it....
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
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  10. #35
    Senior Member Mark W.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    After reading all the current replies I find myself wanting to ask GreenMnM if he actually read any of the information that has been posted regarding this situation ?

    For example, what of the information TheLayer made available ?

    No offense , but it seems you are debating things that you are not informed about.

  11. #36
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by GnBeret
    An "assumption"??? Considering the number of instances of this kind of activity that have come to light over the past few months (including at least one where the government has openly acknowledged its actions), "open secret" would be more like it....
    Oh i agree,and alot more dirty laundry is comming in the near future,we might even get grassy nole kinda stuff from 50 years ago!
    But I hope thats all it will be,a few items of dirty laundry and nothing that will really stain like iran contra or the nixon tapes.
    This is all homeland security jousting between the intel ranks.
    It may be something,it may not.Im guessing its a NOT,or we would have alot more to the story,with charges pending.
    If there was anything behind it,the agency that leaked it would be following it up with brownie point legal charges.

  12. #37
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark W.
    After reading all the current replies I find myself wanting to ask GreenMnM if he actually read any of the information that has been posted regarding this situation ?

    For example, what of the information TheLayer made available ?

    No offense , but it seems you are debating things that you are not informed about.
    No indication yet. But there's always hope.

    < The Relayer >
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Mark W.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    I would not advise holding your breath on that one. Zebras don't usually change their stripes .

  14. #39
    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    banned members need only to change thier screen name,so yea,a zebra can change her to his stripes.

  15. #40
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    I lost the point of the thread.

  16. #41
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    I was just kinda joking about the tangents that were happening.

    I read articles for information; op-ed pieces for opinions. Generally in op-ed pieces, the available facts are selectively chosen and/or presented in order to buttress the opinions of the writer.

  17. #42
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Well, the facts so far have ben published and referred to here. At least two relevant opinion pieces have been referred to, including that of the 'victim' presumably along with details. The reasons for such an extreme action have not been published in their entirety, and probably never will be. Then someone just as unknowledgable as us tried to fill us in on the 'facts' behind the unpublished motivations of our govm't. JZ, you are cleared to arrest the usual suspects as you see fit.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  18. #43
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    LMFAO -- Paranoid much MnM?

    Her IP is banned - that means a person can not log into the site. Banning an IP is not the same as banning a screenname.To the best of my knowledge once an IP is banned from a site the person can not connect at all from that location.

    Maybe it's just time to deal with the fact that more than a few people don't see things the same as you do
    Most IPs these days are dynamically assigned. Flip the cable modem off and flip it back on - good to go. It'll be the next poor bastard who gets that IP who will be banned.

  19. #44
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: NYTimes Op-Ed

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer
    Well, the facts so far have ben published and referred to here. At least two relevant opinion pieces have been referred to, including that of the 'victim' presumably along with details. The reasons for such an extreme action have not been published in their entirety, and probably never will be. Then someone just as unknowledgable as us tried to fill us in on the 'facts' behind the unpublished motivations of our govm't. JZ, you are cleared to arrest the usual suspects as you see fit.
    OK, I stepped into the thread just as a lighthearted note to try to track it back to topic, a topic that I really hadn't looked at.

    That was a mistake. Sorry.

    Do I have "usual suspects"? Now I'm wondering. I think I understand the philosophical baggage, from all points of the spectrum, that a number of people here carry in with them. That baggage actually deters me from reading a lot of the threads, simply because I'm already well acquainted with what's going to be in there.

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