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Thread: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

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    Default Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    an inquiry published by the New England Journal of Medicine, not only were some military doctors at Abu Ghraib enlisted to help inflict distress on the prisoners, but also the scarcity of basic medical care was at times so severe that it created another kind of torture.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Medics are not doctors.Mid level enlisted at best for the most part.
    Military doctors were busy saving ours at first when prisons were popping up all over iraq,and this onslaught of prisoners were taken.
    Its a nightmare military situation that could never be handled perfectly.Thats the thing with WAR,chit happens.
    The medical treatment they got from the medics is better then most had before they were taken prisoner.
    Sorry for the guy who had to hobble around for a couple of days on a broken foot,he is LOW priority to the doctors treating gunshot and shrapnal wounds.Chances are real high he will survive.

    As for the doctors who were "forced"to take part in the aledged crimes,i dont belive it.
    Doctors are Officers and are well learned in what is and isnt a lawfull order.
    Where is this doctor??
    Where are the charges???
    A doctor and an officer has way to many ways to fight back under UCMJ without harm to his job.
    In the military world,the doctors are held up real high on the scale of things.
    You cant force them to do shit in a combat situation,they all but walk on water.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    ^ deny, deny ,deny.. sigh

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    It has to happen first before you can deny it,i dont think it happened.

    Show me the charges,show me the doctor,or this is what it is,anti war propaganda media bullshit.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    It has to happen first before you can deny it,i dont think it happened.

    Show me the charges,show me the doctor,or this is what it is,anti war propaganda media bullshit.
    I take it you didn't read the article before commenting because if you had you would have noticed this part

    an inquiry published by the New England Journal of Medicine


    I guess the New England Journal of Medicine is nothing but a propganda rag eh? Or maybe it's TIME that you are saying is nothing more than a proganda rag ?

    either way- I'll just say Riiiiight and leave it at that.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

    I guess the New England Journal of Medicine is nothing but a propganda rag eh? Or maybe it's TIME that you are saying is nothing more than a proganda rag ?

    either way- I'll just say Riiiiight and leave it at that.
    i didnt say that,i said show me the doctor or show me the charges.Both would be easy to find if this story had any merit,until that time,its as it is,a story.

    Do you know how many times the NEJM has been wrong???
    lololol
    and TIME,are you kidding me????
    Do you know who owns TIME and how they feel and what they do to support YOUR issues?

    Its an unfounded story.It could be in Time,national enquirer,or the NEJM,doesnt matter,its still an unfounded story.
    Show me the doc,or show me the charges,or its a rumor in times of war.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    "My" issues, issues eh? Time is equal to the Enqurier, eh ?

    LMAO. Ok...suuuurrrreeeeee.

    As for what " my issues" are try: standing up for what's right and speaking out against things that are wrong. Simple as that.

    If you have a problem with that then don't read my posts.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    "My" issues, issues eh? Time is equal to the Enqurier, eh ?
    I dont know about equal,i think TIME has better photographers.Most of the enquirer pics look out of focus alot.
    They are the same on a few things though.
    Both rags have been wrong in thier reporting,many times for both,more for one im guessing.
    An unfounded story run in either rag is nothing more then a rumor.Just because TIME or enquirer says it,it dont make it true.
    Both rags are politically motivated,one more then the other im guessing,but none the less,both the same.


    Its going to take more then a rumor written in TIME or NEJM to get me to belive it.without the doctor or charges pending,it just seems like the media is trying to pour more gas on the fire of prisoner abuse,a flame that is all but dieing down.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Its going to take more then a rumor written in TIME or NEJM to get me to belive it.

    I won't argue with that-- but you do realize that TIME and NEJM are widely respected, right ?

    But how about you debate the info I post rather than me... whatdya say

    Can you refute this story? Do you have anything to present beyond your personal opinion that counters the article ? Any links or articles that discuss the specifc info offered in the article ?

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

    Can you refute this story? Do you have anything to present beyond your personal opinion that counters the article ? Any links or articles that discuss the specifc info offered in the article ?
    I cant refute it,thats my whole point.I cant prove it true or false,neither can you,and neither did TIME or NEJM in this artical.
    All they did was spread a rumor.
    Wheres the doc,wheres the charges?
    Till then,a rumor is all it will be.
    Till then,its media bullshit.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    They have evidence to support their position-- you don't. I'll only continue this discussion with you if/when you have some evidence to bring to the table.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    They have evidence to support their position-- you don't. I'll only continue this discussion with you if/when you have some evidence to bring to the table.
    All ya got right now is what a reporter says,that aint evidence,even in Canada.

    Until there is some evidence for or against it,your right,its not worth discussing.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Given the limited nature of the assertions the authors are relying upon to draw their conclusions, they appear to have overstated their case when they claim doctors were enlisted to help inflict distress... and you appear to have grossly overstated your case when you claim that their already tenuous conclusion is tantamount to "doctors [being] ordered to assist in torture."

    In this regard, there are only two specific instances of physician involvement cited in the article which could possibly be construed to constitute aiding in the infliction of distress. First, there's the doctor's OK'ing the use of tethers in place of straitjackets to restrain patients where it's necessary to do so to prevent them from harming themselves. From that basic premise, the authors then make an incredible and wholly unsubstantiated leap in logic to arrive at the conclusion that doctors were therefore culpable in the abuses which followed when the tethers were placed on prisoners necks. And second, there's the participation of the psychologist and psychiatrist members of the intel teams in the interrogation of prisoners, even though these intel specialists did not (and do not ever) function as physicians - they're intel specialists schooled, quite predictably, in psychology. Moreover, even assuming, arguendo, that they should nevertheless be considered "physicians" for purposes of the instant case, the authors fail to cite any specific evidence of their having done anything beyond make use of their understanding of pschology to direct the interrogations in a more productive manner.
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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Tigerlilly, an accusation doesnt equal proof. Its impossible to refute a story with no hard facts.

    As far as allegations of Coaliton forces using 'torture'... uh... we need to define our terms. Have you seen interviews with Iraqi's that have survived encounters with Saddam, his sons or his thugs? Have u read the interviews of those that lived in Iraq before our invasion? And yes, there are videos of Saddam and his agents committing the most monsterous attrocities conceivable on other human beings. (Itll give you nightmares forever). THAT is torture.

    Abu Ghraib? Big Fucking Deal. Really. If those actions stopped even one murder bombing against American troops or Iraqi civillians, good. Please dont tell me youd rather see your brothers and sisters getting blown to peices than see a naked dog pile of terrorists.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep Kat
    Abu Ghraib? Big Fucking Deal. Really. If those actions stopped even one murder bombing against American troops or Iraqi civillians, good. Please dont tell me youd rather see your brothers and sisters getting blown to peices than see a naked dog pile of terrorists.

    I boldfaced the important parts all by myself.

    Good post IMO.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    There's that good old "kill em all" type attitide that is so DISGUSTING-imo

    makes those who post, speak and think like that just as bad as a terrorist- IMO-- no WORSE -- because they think they are better than terrorist and they are not , that false pride and hypocrisy makes it worse- IMO.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep Kat
    Tigerlilly, an accusation doesnt equal proof. Its impossible to refute a story with no hard facts.
    Riiiight
    That's code for no defense or in plain simple terms - ya aint got shit to use in defense

    yes, I am all too aware of Saddams actions.



    Abu Ghraib? Big Fucking Deal. Really.
    HMM You do realize you just big fucking deal about innocent people being tortured. Yep, inncocent just like the victims of 9/11. You just said no big deal if they get tortured. No big deal, indeed

    Let me ask you and MnM this :

    if you read the part of your post that says no big deal and the stuff about if it saved one American- and the author of the post was a muslim talking about 9/11 and its ok if saved even just one muslim- what would you call that person?

    What you feel about them saying "no big deal" ?

    Just think about it for a sec... still feel like torture of Iraqi's is no big deal ???

    Me , well I am anti torture-- for any reason -- under any flag.
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 02-16-2005 at 10:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Tigerlilly, well informed people can have different opinions and not resort to personal attacks. Do you think that posting an opinion is the same as an Islamic fascist using a dull knife to saw the head off a screaming civillian are equal?

    I understand that you seem to be coming from pascifist point of view. Thats wonderful in junior high school kids, but incomprehensible for an adult. All violence is NOT equal, Tiger. Would you use physical force to prevent a criminal from hurting a child, or would you attempt to understand him? I can be fairly sure that if you saw a stranger standing at the foot of your kids bed at 3am, you wouldnt sing "We Are The World" with him. I dont need to remind you that violence solved WW2 and saved the world from Nazism and Japanese Imperialism.

    THERE IS NO MORAL EQUIVILANT between murdering CIVILLIANS (one at a time or by the thousands) and the alleged abuse of captured enemy TERRORISTS. While the coalition forces wear military uniforms and take all possible precautions to avoid collateral damage, the terrorists dont follow any conventional rules of warfare and specifically target children, pregnant women and the aged. America didnt start this fight. Muslims are at war with their neighbors in 15 corners of the world right now.

    Youre very confused, Tigerlilly. THEY ARE NOT LIKE US. While our kids learn the "I Love You" song with Barnney, their children are learning songs celebrating the death of America. Where we value life, they set up snipers behind lines of their own children. Kids as young as 10 years old have been sent out on suicide bomb missions. If you want proof of what the average Muslim mind believes, go to: and read the words of their profit.

    Gandhi was a spectular and singular human being. He used the principles of non violence to change his world. He was also dealing with the Very civilized British Empire. Those arent the parameters were dealing with here and now.

    Pascifists are worse than bleating sheep being lead to the slaughterhouse. Given the chance, a sheep wouldnt try to understand and befriend his butchers.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    If you want proof of what the average Muslim mind believes
    One author's opinions and interpretations do not constitute "proof" of an average way of thinking of hundreds of millions of people.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep Kat
    THERE IS NO MORAL EQUIVILANT between murdering CIVILLIANS (one at a time or by the thousands) and the alleged abuse of captured enemy TERRORISTS. While the coalition forces wear military uniforms and take all possible precautions to avoid collateral damage, the terrorists dont follow any conventional rules of warfare and specifically target children, pregnant women and the aged. America didnt start this fight. Muslims are at war with their neighbors in 15 corners of the world right now.

    Youre very confused, Tigerlilly. THEY ARE NOT LIKE US. While our kids learn the "I Love You" song with Barnney, their children are learning songs celebrating the death of America.
    First of all not all or even most of those being detained and subject to possible torture are terrorists- over 70% are INNOCENT people. That means you are supporting the torture, kidnaping and jailing of innocent people.

    It may be your opinion that those actions are less immoral than terror attacks but I strongly disagree.

    Second- if that is what you think all or even most Muslims or Middle Eastern people are like that or are teaching their kids what you described - it is you who is confused- VERY, VERY confused at that.

    What you describe is the MINORITY of Muslim people just as the Ku Klux Klan is just a minority in Christians.

    Believeing that all or most Islamic people are like terrorist is 100% DISCRIMINATION.

    More than 100,000 ( mostly innocent civilains) have died so far as a result of Bush invading Iraq-- how many people must die before the President and those who support him will feel they have obtained revenge for 9/11 ?

    ofcourse Iraq had little to nothing to do with anyway- but lets not let that FACT get in the way of the administration and its supporters lust for blood -- how many Muslim people do they want dead anyway ?

    How many innocent Muslims are they willing to have murdered?

    How many tortured?

    Will those people be satisified if all Muslims are dead- that sounds exactly like
    what a great number of Repubs and several people posting here in favor of this war reallytruely want.

    IMO- those that support this war are no better than the men who crashed those planes on 9/11.
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 02-17-2005 at 12:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Doctors ordered to assist in Torture

    Okay, you people disagree. Whether it's opinion or what you choose to beleive about the facts that form your opinion, there's no reason to repeat the same points back and forth.

    I'm locking this, but if anybody has anything NEW to add to the topic, PM me and I'll unlock it.

    Lena



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