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Thread: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    When it comes to giving psychoactive drugs to children, I think it best to follow this advice: PROCEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION. Most anti-depressants are given to children "off-label", meaning that they haven't been tested in children or approved for use in children. In general, I think this is a dangerous practice, as recent cases have shown.

    On the other hand, some children genuinely have mental illnesses with neurophysiological causes--e.g. bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and major depressive illness. ADHD is considered a learning disorder, not a mental illness, but there is good evidence that it is also neurophysiological in nature. These are genuinely biological and genetic in origin,and they are not the fault of the parents (unless you can blame a person for the genes they pass on to their children). In CAREFULLY DIAGNOSED cases of these disorders, medication should be considered as an option.

    I do agree that children are often misdiagnosed (for instance, high-functioning autistic kids may be misdiagnosed as having ADHD. These disorders can look similar symptomatically, but their neurological causes are very different, and so if you give ADD meds to an autistic kid, bad things may happen...) I agree that medications are over-prescribed and that some children's misbehavior can be attributed to societal and educational and parental failings...despite everyone's best intentions. I recently read a very good book called "Should I Medicate My Child?" written by a child psychiatrist who thoroughly examined the pros and cons of this issue. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in this question. Another interesting book is "The Bipolar Child," which makes you realize that there are some children who suffer terribly from this devastating mental illness and that the right combination of drugs can be a godsend for the children and their families.

    In general, I think this is a question that really needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.

    On a personal level, I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 30, and while I have benefitted from taking Adderall (which is basically just a very low dose of speed), I'm actually glad that it wasn't given to me when I was a child.

    Peace.

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    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    I can't speak for the case cited in the original post as I haven't read the article. But in general...

    The most extreme cases absolutely require medication therapies to be used IN TANDEM with aggressive counseling and therapy. Teens and pre-teens that have been violently beaten, abused, sexually molested and emotionally damaged for years when young children/toddlers come out of the experience with very accentuated issues. These issues are so severe that meds are required in order to effectively administer therapy and counseling. They are best used as a very temporary avenue in order to get meaningful results from therapy in the initial stages. Good therapists usually diminish med therapies as counseling begins to transition into better results, eventually leading to med-free counsling and re-integration.

    The original article is likely not such a case. There is no shortage of disinterested or failing medical practioners. When meds are used to regain control instead as a therapy, the end result is usually a worsening of the patient's condition. ADD, Bi-Polar or BPD teens that are simply medicated and expected to sustain into integration without addressing their issues only grow into substantially lesser functioning adults. This is the problem with administering medication to youth- it's often just a tactic to shadow the problem long enough until the child reaches adulthood and can be turned loose on society.

    On the whole, we are failing our children- this is one thing that is consistent between all ethnic/racial groups. The number of abused, damaged, sexually molested or troubled teens is growing across the boards. "Problemed" teens are overwhelmingly NOT a genetic occurance. As they grow older, they accelerate the process into the next generation with a higher rate of unplanned or unprepared birth. Single parent, working parent(s), daycare and a financially strapped education system contribute to this problem. Most local social services are also underqualified and underbudgeted in many regions. GOOD quality family and counseling services are dwindling.

    IMO, attacking failing healthcare professionals, while justified, is expended efforts in the wrong place. As the quantity expands, this problem will only grow. The only way to counteract this trend is to reduce the problem ahead of time so the need is reduced. What good is improving family social services by 10% if the problem is growing exponentially? It just means a slightly less massive failure for the next generation... but still massive.
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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    But polecat, don't you think that medication is more necessary in disorders that are known to have a neurophysiological etiology, e.g. bipolar, schizophrenia, ADHD?
    I question the practice of medicating children who have been traumatized....I don't know enough about it from a clinical standpoint but it seems to me that in those cases the problem is more environmental than organic, and medicating such children only puts them at greater risk for future substance abuse, for which they are already at high risk due to the original trauma. Don't you think? I ask because you seem to have some knowledge of the subject.
    It seems to me that trauma can be treated with psychotherapy, while bipolar and schizophrenia really are a result of faulty brain chemistry, and so meds are necessary,and will probably be more helpful than talk therapy.

  4. #29
    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    But polecat, don't you think that medication is more necessary in disorders that are known to have a neurophysiological etiology, e.g. bipolar, schizophrenia, ADHD?
    Absolutely.. but these cases are the extreme minority. Hence my addition of "problemed" teens/children are overwhelmingly NOT a genetic occurance.

    *MOST* all ADD/ADHD, bipolar, sociopathy and BPD teen patients can be traced back to environmental issues. The number of cases, when studied extensively (which never happens), can have specific events/environmental issues that are the source of the problems. Cases of actual genetic brain chemistry or imbalances are very, very rare.

    It's a massive discussion when it comes to neurophysiciological etiology vs. the result of childhood trauma or abuse. As you also mentioned, misdiagnosis is also rampant as the medical community really does not have the time or monetary resources to perform an adaptive or comprehensive analysis of every case. They try to match a 'best fit' treatment with very little patient exposure.


    I question the practice of medicating children who have been traumatized....I don't know enough about it from a clinical standpoint but it seems to me that in those cases the problem is more environmental than organic, and medicating such children only puts them at greater risk for future substance abuse, for which they are already at high risk due to the original trauma. Don't you think?
    Extreme cases do need medication therapy used in tandem with counseling and therapy.

    A good case example is a local teen that had been in counseling/therapy for over 2 years with no results. He had a plethora of issues from a violently abusive father. He was homicidal, schizophrenic, sufferred hallucinations and delusions, agoraphobic and extremely violent. Results were not obtainable until he began a 6 month medication therapy (SSRI's) which he violently was against. This was the only way to break down his walls in order for therapy to penetrate. He was subjected to only 6 months of med therapy along with counseling, and his condition improved. Prior, no form of therapy could help. He was far too violent and had built such massive walls that it was a failing effort. The temporary med therapy allowed enough positive therapy to reach him so as they could be removed entirely. He's still in counseling/therapy, but med-free... and continues to improve.

    A small percentage of extreme cases- I'm very much for the introduction of med therapy, IF normal means are failing. I do feel it's near malpractice level of incompetence to administer meds to a child/teen that has simply had a few months of symptoms or episodes.

    It's still a much better focus of energies and efforts to put emphasis on the source of the problem. The overwhelmingly majority of teens (and later adults) with severe psychological issues are not simply brain/neurophysiological in nature. There are many regions in the US where such behavior is tolerated and thrives, and they pump out millions of troubled teens/adults per year. It's a societal problem that entirely needs a societal solution. What will be left will only be the rare few genetic cases, which are likely less than 4% of what we see today.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    Very interesting response, polecat. Thanks for taking the time to answer....
    I am a little confused, though: I am pretty sure that ADHD is considered to be neurophysiological in the sense that there is a lack of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex. Adderall (amphetamine) binds with dopamine receptors in the brain and the result is an increased amount of dopamine in the frontal lobe (and suddenly I can clean my apartment and organize my papers!!)....I don't know; it's been a while since I read this stuff. BUT, my point is that I thought that schizophrenia, bipolar, major depressive illness, and ADHD were all considered to be the result of some imbalance in seratonin, dopamine and other neurotransmitters....even if we don't understand EXACTLY what's going on up there. Am I totally wrong about this???

    Actually, I'm looking right now at an article with the title, "UCLA geneticists find location of major gene in ADHD; targeted region also linked to autism". They say it's on Chromosome 16. I thought that children could have symptoms that LOOK like ADHD as the result of trauma, poor parenting, etc, but that the actual disorder was considered to involve a characteristic brain chemistry....

    Of course, I do believe that there is an interplay of genetic, environmental and physiologic factors--so that trauma in childhood could actually lead to screwed up brain chemistry, especially if there is some genetic predisposition in the traumatized individual.

    The child you mentioned who responded well to medication HAD been diagnosed with schizophrenia, which I thought had a very strong genetic/physiological component....don't studies with monozygotic twins show this to be true?? Of course, there are those two twins, one of whom is severely impaired by schizophrenia, while the other is a research psychologist....this seems to indicate that there MUST be SOME environmental component.

    OK, I can tell that I"m not going to be very coherent right now...I apologize, I should probably go to bed .
    In my own case, I experienced very little trauma as a child. However, most everyone is my family is a little odd or eccentric...probably diagnosable with ADHD or Aspergers. So I tend to agree that these may be physiological and genetic. (Then again, I also think that these things are probably really personality types, rather than actual "disorders"...but I think these personality types are determined in large part by heritable brain chemistry.)

    I do agree that there are huge societal issues that are driving the decline in mental health (frankly, I just think that there are too many people on the planet...we're all crowded together like rats in a cage, physically close but with no real community, and it makes us completely crazy.) I also think that our mental health care system in this country SUCKS, and desperately needs serious reform.
    But I won't hold my breath.....

    Polecat,
    It sounds like you work personally with troubled kids, and I commend you for that. I am always glad to hear a success story like the one you shared above It sounds like some knowledgeable people worked on that case and good treatment decisions were made.

  6. #31
    Senior Member AmericanDreams's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!


    I also think a school can demand mental screening for problem children and if the doctors say medication is the best option,i think the school should be able to ban the child if the kid doesnt take thier meds.
    Its not forcing anything,its making it a condition for being there.
    I saw this pic today and thought it was too perfect for this comment and this topic.

    In most cases I disagree with loading kids up on drugs. And I completely disagree that schools should have the right to make it a condition for attendance for any child.

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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    ^ Hmmmm...I'm not seeing anything...

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    Senior Member AmericanDreams's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    oh darn it ! Wonder why ? Well anyway, I'll just tell you what it says then: it is a billboard that has a pic of a little kid and next to it says
    "So much easier than parenting,
    Ritalin "

  9. #34
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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Im caring about a class full of children,not just one child,and thats the best way to care for each individual child.
    M&M, MY daughter is in Kindergarten with 24 other kids. Of the 25 total in the class, 16 of them are on some form of meds to "help" them with their problems(ADD, ADHD, BIpolar, etc...) Don't you see a problem with that? I for one do. Especially when the teacher says I need to start medicating my child too.

    *The real "kicker" here is; she's in all-day kindergarten, and they only get *Ready for this?* 15 MINS A DAY for RECESS!!!! And 40 mins once a week. But they get one hour a day on the computer. Does anyone else see the problem with this? She's 5 yrs old damnit! She's supposta be running and jumping and playing. She's not supposta be sitting like a zombie for an 8 hour work day.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Is it OK for an adult to take a pill for this,and take a pill for that,and deny a child medication that could possibly help???
    Actually, I think so yes. Especially since MOST of these meds that "Dr.'s" give out to kids haven't been tested and approved for use in children. That's this big problem I have. That and the fact that there are too many parents who don't wanna raise kids like they should. So they tell the Dr. that "Little Jonny" is a wild and crazy child, and that nothing they have done helps. So Dr. gives "Little Jonny" a little orange pill, and presto! "Little Jonny" is quiet, and nice and a total zombie. No more running and jumping and asking questions from him; he just sits there staring at the wall.

    Here is a perfect example if what I mean.

    My neighbor has 3 kids; 2 boys and a girl.

    Her oldest will be turning 18 this year and is on 5 different meds a day 3 times a day. He is supposta have (are you ready?!) ADD, Bi-polar, atypical autisum, anger issues, and something else I can't remember. The kid is just a product of his being raised. Nothing more.

    I have taken him to his Psych appts and the Dr. does nothing more that say; "Are you doing OK?" When the kid says yes, he say ok here's another script, good to know this is working. But it's not working! The child tried to kill his sister! The Dr. says it was just a problem with him not taking his meds the right way. ARGH!!!!

    Now for the younger boy (the girl is fine so far), he's 12 and has ADHD. He's a little hummingbird. Always running and jumping and wanting to get into stuff. But if you get him by hisself, he's not like that completly. He quieter, and willing to sit and talk and listen. He's on 3 different meds, and has the same Dr. and the same things go on.

    Now, I don't always get along with their Mom, nor do I even like her that much anymore.(a whole 'nother set of problems there; maybe later I'll tell you guys) But the way she raises her kids floors me.

    The 17 yr old (soon to be 18, has never smoked a cigarettee, drank any alochol, or did and drugs, still a virgin, and had never even SEEN tits on TV let alone real life. I think that's just as much to blame for his mental problems as anything else is.

    The 12 yr old, is worse if you ask me, he's always hearing about how his brother has TRUE and REAL medical problems, but he (12 yr old) is probably faking it. That he's just trying to get attention, since she has to take care of the older one all the time. I CALL BULL SHIT!!!!

    This woman does nothing but either sit in her room and watch TV, or sit on the computer all day and tells the kids to be quiet and leave her alone. She has none to very little social interaction with her own kids. Compounding the problem is the father of the oldest two is dead, nd the youngest one's father is a dead beat, who hasen't seen his son in 4 years by his own choice.

    IF you ask me, and even if you don't; she's every bit as much to blame in her kids "problems" as their fathers are and even a little more in both respects. Has the Dr. asked about their fathers? Nope. HAs she told him (dr.) about the fathers? Nope. Do you think the Dr. would take a different view of the situation if he knew these things? Maybe.

    I think that medicating children CAN help, but it has to be the VERY LAST resort.

    I said earlier that my kiddos teacher wants her to be on meds. I told her I WAS not going to let that happen. I have seen 1st hand what these meds can and ususally do, and I for one am happy to have a bright, and precocious 5 yr old, not a zombie.

    Kitana
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    <08SM>

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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    it comes down to masking a problem vs. dealing with the problem. Behavior issues have to be dealt with with behavior modification. A pill will change a behavior for a short period whereas correct behavior modification last longer than the half life of a medication. When it comes to serious mood disorders therapy has to be part of the treatment hands down. The problem is that most physicians that prescribe drugs for mood disorders do not follow up (and most of the time can not due to medical non disclosure laws) to make sure these patients are 1. even taking the medication regularly (which is a major concern with severe mood disorders) 2. if therapy appointments are being upheld.
    Now with regards to children behavior modification should be practiced not just giving Johnny a pill and hoping it will calm him down or make him "better". Recess and running around makes all the difference. A kid will become destructive depressed aggressive etc... if locked inside all day. Why do you think most adults are popping pills to make themselves feel better because their lives have virtually no activity it's just drive to work, be in the office, drive home, sit in front of the tv.
    With regards to having a school psychologist recommend medication, a psychologist can recommend the child go to a psycharist for medical evaluation for medication but a psychologist can not suggest medication in anyway since they do not have a license to write scrips or prescribe medications or even give samples. I doubt that the county or state would pay for a psycharist or a couple for a district.
    Then having a child barred from attending school because of not taking medication is ridiclious. What happens if the child takes a medication that counter reacts with the "medication" in question and can no longer take it ; is the school going to call up all M.D. involved to question why the child is no longer taking the medication. This is illegal without Medical information release forms even then the information given is not detailed.

    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them.

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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    From what I'm reading, I think it's fair to say that many of us agree that continually medicating a child for behavior disorders is a measure of last resort and should always be used in conjunction with ongoing family therapy, including parenting training. Also, teachers need adequate training, class sizes should be manageable and schools need sufficient resources to cope with this increasing problem. Trouble is, that's the ideal, not how it's actually being handled.

    So what do we do about it instead of what we're doing or not doing now? I don't see any answer on the horizon that the public is going to agree upon, act upon and fund. Does anyone else? I fear politicians will simply continue to give lip service to solving these problems.

    I mean, it's true and great to say parents need to be more responsible, but that's simply not going to happen by saying it, and it can't be legislated either. Therefore, making that observation is no more of a viable solution than overmedicating.

    This is not an argument in favor of the status quo or medicating children. It is an observation that I haven't heard a viable solution. Just saying, "hey, you had 'em, your kids are your problem" isn't going to cut it. I'll assume everyone here who is a parent is a good one, but what else are we doing or can we do to make a difference when so many parents and schools are failing?

    -Ev

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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    I think the "electronic age" is part of the problem. With children spending the majority of their day in front of the computer playing games, TV playing games/watching movies...parents rely on these mediums to babysit...keep the kids out of their hair. Doing this does not exert any physical energy on the children's part. I think I remember reading a study that TV/computers STIMULATE children...if they are spending their whole day in front of the boob tube and not really getting that energy out...how else is it going to express itself?

    It's a combination of a whole bunch of things.

    But, the most important is not relying on drugs to control the children before taking a good, long look at the parenting techniques and the child's daily environment/habits and food intake.

    If all of those measures have been exhausted, then I think careful medication used in conjunction with counseling, etc as Evan mentioned is fine...as a short-term measure. I do not believe in medication for ADD, ADHD, etc. If these are truly "life long" problems, then I believe that we, as parents, need to learn how to teach our children how to get past those hurdles without medication.

  13. #38
    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why children should not be given drugs !!

    Reposted AmericanDreams attachment as a JPG as the reason why some people's browsers do not show them is they do not have a MIME type for .BMP's. Great image, by the way. It's unfortunately very true.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

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