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Thread: A Rose By Any Other Name...

  1. #1
    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default A Rose By Any Other Name...

    There have been several different threads running in this Forum over the past few weeks regarding and/or relating to the Afghanistan/Iraq wars, and while the specific subject matter of each has been different, several recurring themes seem to have emerged - one of which is the supposed moral superiority of the U.S. and its methods of fighting over that of the terrorists and their methods of fighting (i.e., there's a difference between a uniformed soldier, etc., "they're not like us...," and so on). Unfortunately, it's just not so....

    The link below is but one example of dozens and dozens of articles from a diverse range of sources documenting the incredible degree to which the U.S. has decided to circumvent the rules and restrictions imposed by Treaties and International Law on its soldiers in combat by "privatizing" things and fielding a mercenary force to do that which the military is flatly prohibited from doing.

    http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/...ational_l.html

    And to the extent you might think "oh, they're just guarding supply depots, and things like that...," take a look at some of the classified ads currently running in web sites that cater to former Special Ops soldiers - the 3-4 large security corporations that hold the government contracts to supply personnel for various taskings are soliciting former S.F., SEAL, and other Special Ops soldiers for one year contracts in Afghanistan and Iraq paying $150,000 - $180,000, with ads that specifically state "We're Looking For Shooters."

    Anyone care to explain to me how what we're doing is any different from what they're doing? Neither our mercs nor their terrorists are wearing uniforms, adhering to things like the Geneva Convention, etc., so what makes us so morally superior here???
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    Senior Member Satara's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Rose By Any Other Name...

    Great post. Thanks for posting it.

    I don't think anyone can explain how the US is the more moral one in these wars because well, it just isn't the truth.

    2 wrongs do not make a right, if u ask me

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    Default Re: A Rose By Any Other Name...

    The difference is (my tongue is so deep in cheek it hurts) that we're America. We're:
    ~ The world's first effective democracy (yet 2 Presidential elections have gone to court over voting issues),
    ~ our most intelligent economy (yet large numbers of students cannot read or write english properly, let alone the 2nd or 3rd language common in other countries),
    ~ most environmentally enlightened society (yet we refuse to join in Kyoto negotiations and are repealing every bit of sustainable progress in the last 30 years),
    ~ don't deal with terrorists (yet we install dictatorial leaders like Saddam, and have government operatives like those described above

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    Default Re: A Rose By Any Other Name...

    The us military has always been a form of corporate welfare, even during the Revolution. None of our wars after the Revolution have been just or honorable, in my view.



    I became suspicious after my term in East Timor while in the Marine Corps upon learning that Suharto(who caused most of the damage done we were there to "clean) was a big buddy of ours.

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    Default Re: A Rose By Any Other Name...

    The United States GOVERNMENT is about as moral as Pol Pot(whom it supported at times).

    The people are moral, usually.

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    Default Re: A Rose By Any Other Name...

    OK, I'll take a stab at it:

    The difference is that "we" (probably encompassing all those military contractors working for the US government) aren't ever seeking to maximize innocent casualties ("innocent" herein defined as someone who would likely never pose a physical threat to the combatant). There are I'm sure any number of horrific cases where innocent people have been captured/kept/tortured by the US military and its un-uniformed auxilliaries (like those guys running a private jail in Kabul who were supposedly just kind of there of their own volition...um, right). But that's never the primary goal of the coalition troops. Whereas in some (not all, maybe not even most) terror attacks in Iraq and elsewhere, the primary goal is to get a high body count, not just to neutralize imminent threats.

    Before I get flamed, let me just say that this is NOT:

    1. A defense of the US invasion of Iraq; or
    2. A blanket or particular defense of US strategy or tactics, including the use of mercenaries; or
    3. An attempt to downplay the legitimate grievances which, coupled with a sense of powerlessness or futility through traditional political or even military channels, can lead people to acts of terrorism.

    GnBeret asked the question "How are we better?". That's my answer.

    It might be that we're largely better because of circumstances and that, put in the same circumstances, American troops and civilians would fight the same way as the terrorists. It's easy to take the high road when you know you can win a "fair" fight. But those are the facts as they currently stand and on the face of them there are things that are generally considered bad or criminal things (e.g. killing uninvolved civilians) which the terrorists make no effort to avoid doing (and even seek out on occasion), whereas the US troops and their allies and contractors generally do make such an effort.
    Last edited by Lurker; 02-18-2005 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Tidying up
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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Rose By Any Other Name...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker
    ... The difference is that "we" (probably encompassing all those military contractors working for the US government) aren't ever seeking to maximize innocent casualties ("innocent" herein defined as someone who would likely never pose a physical threat to the combatant).

    * * *

    It might be that we're largely better because of circumstances and that, put in the same circumstances, American troops and civilians would fight the same way as the terrorists. It's easy to take the high road when you know you can win a "fair" fight. But those are the facts as they currently stand and on the face of them there are things that are generally considered bad or criminal things (e.g. killing uninvolved civilians) which the terrorists make no effort to avoid doing (and even seek out on occasion), whereas the US troops and their allies and contractors generally do make such an effort.
    Good answer! Although I personally see no conceptual differences whatsoever, to the extent there is any real difference between the two, this is probably it.

    IMHO, it's nowhere near enough of a difference, though, for us to be legitimately parading around with this "holier than thou" attitude we seem to have adopted of late.
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
    - Luke
    "Some men, you just can't reach...."
    - Boss, re Luke

    If there's one thing in my life these years have taught me,
    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
    -Cowboy Junkies

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    Default Re: A Rose By Any Other Name...

    I think when you're in a battle for hearts and minds, you need to spin like crazy. Admitting you may have made a mistake endears you to the historians and the press but makes you look weak to the public and your enemies.

    Has TL really disappeared and taken her posts with her?
    "All this time you were pretending
    So much for my happy ending."
    --Avril Lavigne

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