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Thread: How to deal with discrimination against others?

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    Default How to deal with discrimination against others?

    I want to make a difference in the world by eliminating some of the discrimination againt people such as gays, people of color and religous discrimination such as that which for example Muslims and Jewish people suffer. And I am hitting a brick wall in lots of cases. I have used different tactics such as presenting facts, used comparrisions and even the a dose of your own meds method- none of it has had much effect from what I can see.

    My intentions are pure of heart- I want to make a difference and could use some ideas and input.

    What does everyone think is the best way to stand up to bigots? What ways work and what don't?

    How do others feel about exposing bigots publicly ? Do you think that the public shame of being exposed has any positive effect on the situation?

    Are there any websites where gay or muslim bashers for example are outed ? anybody got some links so I could take a look at what goes on and how it's done---- What would you or do think of sites like that ?

    I'm wondering about the publicly outing tactic because I understand it is effective when used on dead beat dads and johns. In some places those people are put on tv or the newspaper and exposed for their crimes- the repeat offender rate is often lower in those places --- so I am wondering what kind of effect it would have on people who are expossed for hate speech or hate crimes.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    You belong on my friend

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    You belong on my friend
    Should be given 'equal time' ?

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Nope, sorry Mel --this is about fighting discrimination-- not promoting it.
    Well, arguably, the largest group of Americans currently being systematically discriminated against are whites of European origin. You should have been more precise in your thread title i.e. "How to deal with discrimination against ... politically correct groups supported by liberals"

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Personally, TigerLily...I think you're heart is in the right place. However, I must say that you cannot change what others think or believe. The only thing you can do is lead by example. While I admire your enthusiasm and tenacity, I have to say that even I start getting annoyed with the way that you seem to want to "cram" information down people's throats. I do not like bigotry, racism, sexism, etc, etc, etc. However, I am not about to waste my time "converting" those people. I would rather spend my time being me...raising my daughter to be loving, open-minded, empathetic, compassionate, understanding, etc. I would rather spend my time volunteering to places that need people who have the above qualities.

    It seems that you are fighting an "unwinnable" war. You may not like the choices and decisions that others are choosing to make in their lives...however, this is America and they have the freedom to make those choices. You may not agree with them, but you must give them the same respects to have those decisions and choices--just as you expect them to respect your freedom of choice and decisions.

    The best way to "make a change" is by allowing these people to feel the full repercussions of their choices and decisions. There is a heavy cost to freedom...and that is consequence. You make a positive choice, you will get a positive consequence...a negative choice will create a negative consequence. It's not personal against you...it's not about you. It's about each individual and the choices they are choosing to make. Maybe if you really understood that and really respected that fully, you would find the need to "convert" disapper and the desire to be the "shining example" much more powerful. Like I said before...people discriminate, not because they love to hate, but because they are afraid. There is nothing you can do to remove that fear. They need to do that themselves. You need to learn how to allow them their space for experience and you need to concentrate on YOUR experiences.


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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Well you picked the thread title ! The only problem appears to be that you automatically assumed that descrimination can only occur towards "gays, people of color and religous discrimination such as that which for example Muslims and Jewish people suffer", and I chose not to automatically accept your incorrect assumption when responding about discrimination being practiced against a group which you did not choose to mention.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Ok then fine. No more posts by Tigerlilly. Ever. Deleting as many of my posts as I can on entire site- was all a huge waste of time.
    Last edited by Tigerlilly; 02-18-2005 at 03:36 PM.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    Nope, sorry Mel --this is about fighting discrimination-- not promoting it.
    This article talks about ending discrimination...not about promoting discrimination. What is the problem, Tigerlily?

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    I think it's a good question... how do we react to discrimination against others?

    I tend to go out of my way to model good behavior for others. The area that I'm living now is very racist and everything else -ist, it seems, so I get lots of opportunity. I never directly challenge the discriminatory person and turn them into the "bad guy." Psychologically we know that it's really awful and pretty painfull to be a bigot, and anything that makes that experience more awful will make people more bigotted, I think.

    Instead I just try to model another way of being for them, and respect their right to choose their own beliefs. For example I was walking out of class with someone the other day and there was an african american girl walking in front of us. The girl I was walking with said something about how there's lot's of blacks on campus this semester... I was like, "really? I never notice stuff like that... hey, she's in our class, let's ask her about the test.." and I caught up with her and had a little conversation about the test. The girl I was with didn't say anything, and I don't KNOW that she learned anything, but I know that that is how social learning takes place.

    Lena



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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    Ok then fine. No more posts by Tigerlilly. Ever. Deleting as many of my posts as I can on entire site- was all a huge waste of time.
    Actually, your posts were never a waste of time. Every one of them prompted readers to do a little critical thinking for themselves, which was a worthwhile result in itself even if some readers didn't arrive at the particular conclusion you were steering towards.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    I just do my own part and try to be a nice person to all , but the reality is if I cruise through a nieborhood that is predominately black and get lost and need directions I probably would not stop to ask for fear of being a victim . Is this prejudice ?

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
    I want to make a difference in the world by eliminating some of the discrimination againt people such as gays, people of color and religous discrimination such as that which for example Muslims and Jewish people suffer. And I am hitting a brick wall in lots of cases. I have used different tactics such as presenting facts, used comparrisions and even the a dose of your own meds method- none of it has had much effect from what I can see.
    Imo, this is an excellent book, both for the true story it tells and as a guide/inspiration for anyone who wants to fight against discrimination and bias motivated hate:

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

    Not by the Sword: How a Cantor and His Family Transformed a Klansman
    by Kathryn Watterson

    It really is a great read; I recommend it strongly to anyone.

    Its basic lesson should be a familiar one but is not an easy one to absorb or live; it is basically that hate and bigotry can be dissolved when responded to with kindness, understanding and love. In other words, "fight" in my first sentence about is the wrong verb, if you want to be effective.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    The problem, of course, is that love and kindness are slow solvents and most of us tend to be impatient, thus empowering the very thing we choose to oppose.
    "He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!"

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    aussiepunkshocker
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Hmm, I'm not American, but I must say that having lived half of my life being seen by others as a black person, and the other half as being seen as a white person being "white" is a hundred times easier!
    Tigerlily - please keep posting. Everytime you speak up against discrimination counts, it doesn't really matter how you do it so long as you do do it.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    I evaluate people on their individual merits. If discussion with other people highlights some area of prejudice, I either show counter-examples if the discussion is generic, or I steer the discussion to individual merits if the discussion is specific.

    One can only hope that through policy and public sensibility, nondiscrimination catches on. And it has. Although far from perfect, this is a better world than it was 40 years ago, when Lieutenant Uhura was a novelty as a black woman in a recurring television role. There's always an ignorant sector that will see things shallowly. We can reduce the numbers in that sector, but it'll be a long, long time before it's eliminated - if it ever is.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    One can only hope that through policy and public sensibility, nondiscrimination catches on. And it has. Although far from perfect, this is a better world than it was 40 years ago, when Lieutenant Uhura was a novelty as a black woman in a recurring television role. There's always an ignorant sector that will see things shallowly. We can reduce the numbers in that sector, but it'll be a long, long time before it's eliminated - if it ever is.
    At the risk of pissing off yet more liberals, I would add that any truly objective look at non-discrimination progress today has to also include views from non-traditional viewpoints i.e. how the views of black people or hispanics for example might be changing in this regard. I'm talking about the Condy Rice and Gonzales appointments & confirmation hearings, Howard Dean's recent joke about hotel staff, etc.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    I do my part by teaching my children that discrimination and prejudiced behaviors is wrong.

    I don't expect to change the world...I don't try...because it is pointless. Racism is natural.... people have always belonged to "clans". Some of us can see beyond that sort of behavior. For those who do not, you cannot talk them out of it by using facts. If they don't realize it on their own....you won't be able to convince them.

    As for racism against whites - yeah I suppose that does exist, but I don't see it and don't really care about it. The fact is that as a white male, I make (statistically speaking) more money than a woman....more money than a minority...and much more than a minority woman. I think it is wrong....and it really is that simple.

    What needs to happen is that more people need to say the things that Bill Cosby says. Be intelligent....don't raise your children to be dumbasses...don't allow your children to use racism as a crutch.

    What is really interesting is that America is actually much further along than most countries from what I have observed. My friend who is of Chinese descent dare not bring home a white woman. My friend who is Philipino has yet to meet her boyfriend's Cambodian parents because they would not approve of her. Greeks...Italians...Catholics...Lutherans...etc.

    The "clan" mentality won't go away....but yes...I would stand up to it....but I'm not going to change the world.

    As for all the arguing about thread titles and stuff - wtf?
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
    -Humphrey Bogart

    "Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
    -Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    As for all the arguing about thread titles and stuff - wtf?
    This stemmed from TigerLilly's now deleted posts accusing me of hijacking this thread and promoting discrimination by raising the issue of possible discrimination against white Europeans in addition to her originally limiting the subject to blacks, gays, Muslims etc. I merely attempted to defend myself and pointed out that her thread title said 'people' ... I was under the assumption that whites of European origin are people too.

    The fact is that as a white male, I make (statistically speaking) more money than a woman....more money than a minority...and much more than a minority woman. I think it is wrong....and it really is that simple.
    This comment is probably worthy of its own thread ! IMHO at least a significant part of the reason that you feel wrong about this is because of indoctrination at the behest of liberals ! If you look objectively at all of the facts surrounding your employment, i.e. that you work 330 days a year every year without calling in sick regularly and without the possibility of taking regular 9 month leaves of absence, that you probably have many many years of experience in your field and service to your employer which a woman or minority member probably does not have, that you actually and effectively get your job done in a rapid fashion etc., at least some portion of any pay differential is clearly justified in the mind of your employer because of your actual contributions to the company's productivity and profitability.

    Put another way, liberal attempts to use broad brush statistics in regard to relative pay rates quickly begin to fall apart when the details of individual persons are looked at with a microscope i.e. actual hours worked per week, actual abilities to effectively perform the job, actual years of service in a particular field or with a particular employer, or many other criteria. Also, specific cases show that women and minorities who do bring equal dedication, experience and abilities to the table are often paid even more than a white male in the same position, particularly when that position involves a high 'public' profile. For example, a broad brush comparison of male versus female strip club workers would produce an 'unwelcome' statistic that females (dancers) were much more highly paid than males (bouncers, bartenders). There's an old thread on this subject if you care to search for it.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-19-2005 at 09:52 AM.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Should be given 'equal time' ?
    Sure. I disagree with racism and bigotry against whites too.

    To be clear, I confine my anti-racism beliefs to the coercion sphere, meaning government mandated racism such as affirmative-action and anti-discrimination laws. I think people should be free to discriminate at their own expense all they like.

    If David Duke wants to open up a white-only resturant, that's his perogative as far as I'm concerned and i oppose laws that would make such a thing illegal.

    Also, the biggest gainer from affirmative action laws are white women, not minority races, at the moment. In addition, 70 cents of every welfare dollar goes to a welfare BUREAUCRAT, not a welfare recipient, and most of the bureaucrats are white. They are the major lobbying groupfor keeping welfare and such things going.

    I oppose it all.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Um, no Mel...that is not why I feel that way.

    Your examples, while certainly accurate, completely misses the point. If a statistic states that 50% of the people around you are going to die in a year, that does not mean that if you are in a room with someone, that one of you will necessarily die within a year. It might be neither of you...it might be both of you.

    So, while it is true that your examples are accurate, when taking the population as a whole and comparing similar backgrounds, education, years of experience, and responsibilities, the simple fact is that white males make more money.

    The nice thing is that these stats are developed using mathematical formulas. While statistics can be manipulated, I have not seen much in the way of arguments against these particular stats. And believe me...mathematicians love nothing more than to disprove something.

    So, no...I do not believe that these stats were created by some sort of liberal conspiracy.
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
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    "Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    I found the old thread with the 'unequal pay for unequal work' article ...

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Howard Dean's recent joke about hotel staff, etc.
    Ok,not to thwart the topic,but what joke???
    I cant find it anywhere???

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    The joke was publicized everywhere, and included in the Howard Dean DNC Chairman thread here.

    Basically, Howard was speaking to leading minority groups on his first day as DNC chairman. He told the minority audiences a joke intending to drive home a point that Republicans are the party of 'white people' - to the effect that 'for Republicans to get this many minoritity people in the same room, they'd have to bring in the hotel staff!'. Of course, alternative media picked up on Howard's quote and pointed out that it smacked of Howard's own prejudices that minorities fill stereotypical roles of being waiters, housekeepers, and kitchen staff.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by MojoJojo
    So, while it is true that your examples are accurate, when taking the population as a whole and comparing similar backgrounds, education, years of experience, and responsibilities, the simple fact is that white males make more money.
    I just dont have a problem with this.

    After white females,isnt the white male the next largest group in general population??I would think alot of the white female group being slave labor waged SAHM's,maybe even half???Thats why they are not the highest paid and white males are.

    Theres just more white males then the entire black community male and female.

    Is this right??

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by aussiepunkshocker
    Hmm, I'm not American, but I must say that having lived half of my life being seen by others as a black person, and the other half as being seen as a white person being "white" is a hundred times easier!
    Tigerlily - please keep posting. Everytime you speak up against discrimination counts, it doesn't really matter how you do it so long as you do do it.
    I agree with Aussie..
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