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Thread: How to deal with discrimination against others?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by MojoJojo
    So, while it is true that your examples are accurate, when taking the population as a whole and comparing similar backgrounds, education, years of experience, and responsibilities, the simple fact is that white males make more money..
    I think that Mel's point is that, while the statistic may be true, it's inherently meaningless unless you look at it in context. You can't just leap to the "men make more than women, so therefore men are oppressive bastards" conclusion. There are a lot of personal choices made by both men and women that lead to that statistic. Remember, "statistics lie, and liars use statistics".

    Or, at least, that's my point.
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Non Hispanic white(both sexes): White 195,575,485
    Non Hispanic black(both sexes): Black or African American 34,313,007


    We can assume white males are roughly equal to white females, so yes, white males do indeed outnumber the total number of blacks. Can't understand why that would be surprising. Some states are almost entirely white, like West Virgina(95% or so last I checked). Interestingly enough, West Virginia is also one of the biggest tax gainers. They get about 2 dollars in federal money for every dollar they pay in taxes. This is why Robert Byrd is known as the "King of Pork":




    The income stuff is no big deal. The problem comes from certain government policies that hurt everybody as a whole and cause a tremendous amount of distortion, while sometimes subsidizing certain groups.

    For example,
    After world war two, the government heavily subsidized suburbia in various ways, including low interest loans and loan-backing for those moving to suburbs. These were mostly white people. AS a result, a lot of the capital white american owns are houses built during this time which has been passed down or otherwise used for equity. Similar things go on now affecting a variety of races but on a whole, "wealthfare" is a much bigger problem than "welfare" and the majority of the recipients are indeed white. I oppose it on the grounds of liberty and private property, not because of what race is being subsidized or hurt. In the long run, we all suffer from it.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    For example,
    After world war two, the government heavily subsidized suburbia in various ways, including low interest loans and loan-backing for those moving to suburbs. These were mostly white people. AS a result, a lot of the capital white american owns are houses built during this time which has been passed down or otherwise used for equity. Similar things go on now affecting a variety of races but on a whole, "wealthfare" is a much bigger problem than "welfare" and the majority of the recipients are indeed white. I oppose it on the grounds of liberty and private property, not because of what race is being subsidized or hurt. In the long run, we all suffer from it.
    Now that is an intriguing way of looking at things. Most blacks in the 1940's would not be "qualified" for such loans - so the wealth was created. And certainly it would be passed down or sold off.

    These days there are more wealth creation "tools" being put into black hands. This is a good thing.

    But your example shows how something wasn't designed to be intentionally discriminatory but because of circumstances it turned out to be. Or at least, so it appears.

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    God/dess gypsy_girlchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    I love everyone until they piss me off....
    I don't care if they are gay (it shouldn't matter unless I want to sleep with them) a different race (they usually have a better tan than I do) or sex (without a penis we're all the same right?)
    I wish everyone felt that way because there are so many more things to worry about than another person and something they were either born with or chose to be...
    Please don't lick me, it tickles..



  5. #30
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverback
    I think that Mel's point is that, while the statistic may be true, it's inherently meaningless unless you look at it in context. You can't just leap to the "men make more than women, so therefore men are oppressive bastards" conclusion. There are a lot of personal choices made by both men and women that lead to that statistic. Remember, "statistics lie, and liars use statistics".

    Or, at least, that's my point.
    I agree that you have to consider context - that is not my conclusion - the stat is a generalization and not meant to represent each individual situations - and yes.......stats can be used for bullshit.
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
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    God/dess gypsy_girlchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    LOL, you all need to go to one of the womans' studies lectures at my college.... The whole idea is that women ARE oppressed... I said I didn't feel oppressed, but they didn't listen to me... And as a dancer, I must have been brainwashed into thinking that my only life's duty is to serve men...... Ah, I love stereotypical ideas made by people that are trying to fight a stereotypical ideal.
    Please don't lick me, it tickles..



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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    The programs were bad overall, we shouldn't be subsidizing anybody via government coercion. It has a whole host of bad economic effects including massive dislocation of resources(and part of the "sprawl" problem lefties whine about and such).

    Some of it is unintentionally. Some of it is not. The "government" has a strong interest in keeping the black underclass going. For instance, minimum wage laws primarily hurt blacks and like clockwork, whenever black unemployment begins to touch the white level, congress jacks the minimum wage up, resulting in the disemployment of many blacks. This has been going on for half a century now. There are two other major economic warfare reasons for minimum wage laws, but a third, even more nefarious reason is to cause all kinds of social problems by hurting marginal workers in certain races.

    That's the one problem with "public" racism. The racists don't pay the costs of their discrimination, the public-at-large pays for it. A business owner in Los Angeles who doesn't cater to blacks or Latinos will probably be out of business very quickly. A bureaucrat or politicians who does such and do it indefinantly without much worry.

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    God/dess gypsy_girlchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    But is't also the idea of being treated equally but different be taken into concideration? Isn't that something that's screwing up the whole point our whole social system?
    I really wish the parents of yesterday hadn't taught their kids about races because maybe the word racism would exist today.
    In Japan a Samarai can continue fighting even after his body is dead... We, in America do not have this word therefor it does not exist to us... If we did not have the word Racism, would it still exist?
    If we could banish the idea from our culture, couldn't we live as people, rather than races?
    Please don't lick me, it tickles..



  9. #34
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    If we could banish the idea from our culture, couldn't we live as people, rather than races?
    A lofty ideal indeed, and one I would heartily support. Unfortunately, the idea is so codified into our gov't social, educational and business regulation systems at this point that 'undoing' structural racism will of necessity be a long and painful ordeal with much stumping, screaming and probably violence along the way.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Melonie,

    Good points, as usual. I agree that white males probably make more money because they have more education, more experience, are seen as more efficient, etc. I see that as something that needs to change though. People of all colors and genders should have equal opportunities for education, experience, and the things that go with education and experience. Right?

    Lena



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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lena
    Melonie,

    Good points, as usual. I agree that white males probably make more money because they have more education, more experience, are seen as more efficient, etc. I see that as something that needs to change though.
    Lena
    I would guess most white guys dont have everything handed to them and are 1 or 2 paychecks away from being broke,much like most people.

    Are more white people on welfare then black,latino or asian?

    Do white guys have to make less now in an attempt to make things equal??

    Does the latino population here in America have more money then the african American population??

  12. #37
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    People of all colors and genders should have equal opportunities for education, experience, and the things that go with education and experience. Right?
    Yes of course they should have EQUAL opportunities. However, as the good intentions of LBJ's 'great society' have progressed for decades, it is very arguable that people of 'color' and the female gender now have unequal, preferential opportunities for education and job experience.

    Are more white people on welfare then black,latino or asian?
    In terms of absolute head count, yes. In terms of the percentage of their own group receiving welfare payments versus working and paying taxes, no. Such attempts at comparisons are extremely muddied when other aspects are examined in detail i.e. illegal latino workers do not pay taxes, the #1 occupation of young black males is 'inmate' who also do not pay taxes etc. Interestingly, asians as a group pay the highest taxes and collect the least in welfare payments - far exceeding every other group including whites.


    Do white guys have to make less now in an attempt to make things equal??
    Attempting this would be political dynamite. Liberal policy instead would try to achieve the same end result through taxation, collecting extra money from white guys in the form of income taxes and redistributing that extra money in the form of increased social benefits and targeted programs primarily benefitting minority groups who monolithically support liberal policies at the voting booth.


    Does the latino population here in America have more money then the african American population??
    Again, it's very important how one defines 'money' when attempting to make such a comparison. Officially, latinos working illegally do not actually have any documented incomes ! On the other hand, officially, African Americans living in gov't subsizided housing, paying gov't subsidized utility bill rates etc. do not have to declare the cash value of these rent, utility bill and other subsidies as income either.


    I would guess most white guys dont have everything handed to them and are 1 or 2 paychecks away from being broke,much like most people.
    Well, this comes back to the issue of the net effect of income tax rates, declared incomes, untaxed cash value of benefits one might or might not be eligible for etc. Indeed a 'white guy' paying standard income tax rates, paying market rates for rent and utilities, paying a portion of his own health insurance and medical costs etc. may be 'worse off' than minorities who earn less, but who pay much less in taxes, rent and utility bills plus have all of their medical costs covered by a social program.

    Again please understand that I'm not trying to 'pidgeonhole' any particular group here. All I am saying is that any attempt at group to group comparisons involve so many mitigating factors that any simplistic comparison based on say officially reported income levels is virtually meaningless in real world terms.
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-20-2005 at 12:45 PM.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Who controls the wealth in this country? Whites. How many Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians proportionately control as much wealth and make laws that control our society as whites do?

    That is the problem, and White Americans for the most part are unconfortable with an equitable division of control, why I don't know.

    Thus the focus in this country SHOULD be on proportionately equal wealth distribution racially, and that should also include gays.

    But the majority doesn't give a shit about the minorities. As minorities, we have to find ways to erode white wealth and power in order to create an equal playing field. And that is no easy task.

    People earning 5 figure a year incomes supported Bush and his party is focused on strenghthening big business at the expense of workers. The average citizen is a fool mostly due to ignorance of what is really going on. Creating an even playing field is only fair, yet many whites feel threatened when programs designed to make us all equal are utilized or proposed. Make these threatened whites have to sit on the back of the bus, use separate inferior bathrooms or live in blighted inner cities and they would change their tunes fast.

    Sure the politicians should expose racism and focus on putting down publicly those institutions that promote it, but being white and receiving bribes (political contributions are bribes) from their fellow white business owners, money talks and principles get flushed down the toilet.

    My feeling is that the black church should cut preaching time down by 2/3 and hold classes in creating wealth, starting at the Junior High School level. If mass amounts of people of color knew what white men know about creating investment capital, things could gradually change to where whites would have to depend on us instead of the other way around for various services and goods. As far as Hispanics and gays go, other vehicles could be used to even things out.

    And unfortunately I feel that religion is the root of all evil and much prejudice we are experiencing today including wars are stemmed from organized religious groups.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    As minorities, we have to find ways to erode white wealth and power in order to create an equal playing field. And that is no easy task.
    Equality of opportunity was the supposed goal of civil rights--not the fantastical and inequitable fallacy of neo-Marxist theories based on equality of results.

    We're all created equal, but we're not all equally endowed. Some people can't accept that, yet dancers should be the first to comprehend such a basic fact of life.
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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    First, I'd eliminate talk of "race"... there is only ONE... the Human race... everything else
    is merely an ethnicity... a small difference in skin coloration, etc. Very silly to discriminate
    or categorize complex people on such a simplistic basis. Then we have the problem of
    "who is black, white, etc". The last US Census allowed much more flexibility for self-
    identification. Many people are some mixture between categories. The Census has always
    considered "hispanic" to be an ethnicity of "white". But what is "hispanic"? Argentine?
    Portugease? etc. For a discussion on the difficulty encountered in "racial" classifications used by South Africa during apartheid (and more), check out "Sorting things out" by Bowker and
    Star.
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...287225-3380906

    Gender differences are harder to ignore. Sexual orientation and religious affiliation should
    be private... unless someone makes it public. But recognize that it is human nature
    to group and oppose... us vs. them, male vs. female, straight vs. gay, sect vs. sect...
    "Discrimination" is part of that dynamic. It is destructive when emotion overcomes
    logic, usually harming the interests of both the discriminator as well as the discriminated.
    To fight discrimination, fight irrationality.

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    Default Re: How to deal with discrimination against others?

    Melonie, I agree about unequal opportunities, sort of. I like reading your posts because you tend to focus on political/business facts, and my brain usually focuses on the social construction that goes into a problem. So I totally agree that hiring needs to be equal according to education and experience - BUT, some of us grow up with more enrichment and socialization to professional conduct than others.

    To clarify, I'm against minority preferences in hiring, paying, etc. I'm against any form of racism. I'm for programs like head start, that offer enrichment and helpful socialization to children who don't get those things at home.

    Lena



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