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Thread: Affirmative Action by police departments

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    Default Affirmative Action by police departments

    it makes a huge difference whether we're talking about hiring black men or white women !

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    I think that women need to learn to accept their limits. Women should NOT be corrections officers in Men's prisons. Women should NOT expect to match a man in hand-to-hand combat. There are just some things that men can do better. Women have a much higher pain tolerance...but an average woman cannot compete with an average man.

    Are there GI Janes out there? I am sure there are, however, they are very few and far between. And, even then...she couldn't take on a well-trained man if she had to only depend on her hand-to-hand combat skills. It's just not possible.

    If a woman wants to be a cop, then fine. But, she needs to be placed in the appropriate situations. That means no CO of a men's jail...not transporting men to/from anywhere...

    Just my

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Are there GI Janes out there? I am sure there are, however, they are very few and far between. And, even then...she couldn't take on a well-trained man if she had to only depend on her hand-to-hand combat skills. It's just not possible.
    Personally, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever if the 'GI Janes' want to pursue careers in law enforcement, if they take the exact same tests and training to the exact same standards as men, and if they are successfully able to complete the program thus proving they are capable of handling the job. For example, I'm sure that women with the qualifications and training of say a Rachel McLish could kick ass as well or better than any male. But this is vastly different than the current situation of lower physical standards and political correctness, which was recently responsible for a 50 year old grandmother in a Sherriff's dept uniform being beaten, and a bailiff, court reporter and judge being shot to death.

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    I think that women need to learn to accept their limits. Women should NOT be corrections officers in Men's prisons. Women should NOT expect to match a man in hand-to-hand combat. There are just some things that men can do better. Women have a much higher pain tolerance...but an average woman cannot compete with an average man.

    Are there GI Janes out there? I am sure there are, however, they are very few and far between. And, even then...she couldn't take on a well-trained man if she had to only depend on her hand-to-hand combat skills. It's just not possible.

    If a woman wants to be a cop, then fine. But, she needs to be placed in the appropriate situations. That means no CO of a men's jail...not transporting men to/from anywhere...

    Just my
    Before i agree with everything you said,are you including street patrol officers??
    Thats considered front line.

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    I would include anyone who would have a high chance of coming into hand-to-hand contact with a man.

    Front line Army, Navy (SEALS) or Police. Doesn't matter.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Ah, cantankerous Anna Coulter.
    Re: "...female cops are more likely...to accidentally shoot people." Heh. Get the California Highway Patrol on the phone. They might want to up their hiring quota for women. (The CHP has been criticized in recent years for being trigger happy across the board.)
    Re: "...asking a woman to open a jar of pickles." Tip: tap the edge of a sealed jar on the kitchen counter or floor, gently, or wrap thick rubber band around the edge of the lid. Problem solved. Using brainpower.
    Well, I agree with a few of Ann's points, but she doesn't have to be nasty about it. In some states, people are not jumping at the chance to be corrections officers or street cops, hence, the salaries have been boosted to attract applicants of either gender. A friend of mine is finishing his MBA but is willing to work as a cop because of the high wage. Also, it is a waste of "man"power to stick a physically able male officer behind a desk instead of on the street- why not allot that desk job to a willling female?
    Lastly, there are many situations where a female officer responding is preferable (child welfare cases, sexual assault, etc.) For obvious reasons, policing will tend to be male dominated. I feel it's dangerous to reverse progress gained by women peace officers because of a few regrettable incidences. Police struggle with "image problems" in American society, and a diverse police force makes it seem as if law is applied fairly, versus getting your authority from one gender and one color.

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Whatever their gender, if they can do it (meet the physical endurance, beat the "test wrestler" in hand to hand combat (pick a strong "criminal like" man and have every cadet wrestle him - the ones that lose 2 out of 3 rounds, sorry. Everyone is allowed to screw up sometime, so anyone that wins 2:3 or better is OK) then let them have the job.

    In this case, the side issue may be once he HAD the gun, how did he get out of the courthouse before it was locked down? That may indicate budget issues. Why were the other male guards not able to subdue him?

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    In this case, the side issue may be once he HAD the gun, how did he get out of the courthouse before it was locked down? That may indicate budget issues. Why were the other male guards not able to subdue him?
    Actually, the "incompetence" goes even deeper than that i.e. the holding cell where the 50 year old grandma deputy was attacked and overpowered was under video surveillance the entire time! From there, with grandma's stolen locker keys, the inmate was able to move to the locker room and liberate her gun.

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    True, so this is more than a girl vs boy issue (though labels mean we don't have to actually think...and that;s good politics/media).

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Oh good old Ann... always good for a laugh.

    IMO if you can do the job, you should be allowed to do the job, whether you're a man, woman, gerbil, ok maybe not a gerbil but you get the idea

    In terms of the courthouse incident, I think the bigger problem is that only ONE PERSON was escorting a violent felon. What the hell happened there? In this case, the one person was female, but this could just have easily happened if it had been a male officer alone with him.

    Cops don't have to be built like the Rock. They need to be able to handle themselves, keeping cool in bad situations is probably more important than being able to outmuscle someone anyway. Obviously if you're really weak or out of shape that's a different story. Besides, in a fight anything can happen, no matter how hard you train. The other person can get surprise you, get in a lucky shot, you can slip, get a cramp, whatever, and end up fucked.

    IMO the biggest problem in terms of cops lacking physical abilities are those hairbags with big beer guts that look like they'd have a heart attack if they had to walk up several flights of stairs, never mind fight or chase with someone.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Quote Originally Posted by ironjocelyn
    In this case, the one person was female, but this could just have easily happened if it had been a male officer alone with him.
    No. Would Nichols had tried his escape and murderous rampage if he had been guarded by a large physically fit male? Perhaps, we'll never know. But even if he had tried to escape, he could not have done so just as easily as he did when guarded by a grandmother. The studies Coulter's article quotes are only proof of what common sense tells you, that the bigger a guy is, the less likely it is that someone will mess with him. Ask yourself this, would you want that 51 year old grandma as a bouncer in your club? Then what the hell is she doing guarding men accused of violent crimes?

    Shortly after the shooting, I saw a news conference held by the county District Attorney. He was asked how appropiate it was for a 51 year old grandmother to be guarding a former linebacker accused of several violent crimes. His response? "It's not a question of whether she has the physical strength, it's a question of whether she has the heart to do the job". Such a blatently PC statement would be laughable except for the tragic outcome in Atlanta. In view of the deaths, its sickening.
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    ^ Maybe they thought that he would show more respect and tendency to listen and obey an "elder". heh

    PO Women ARE very good. They, however, have the deck stacked against them when it comes down to hand-to-hand confrontations. It's a proven fact. That doesn't mean that women cannot be cops, it just means that there needs to be some thought about what divisions people are assigned to. I disagree with people not having to be built like "The Rock" (god, he's such a hottie...LOL). In a suburb right next to mine, the only doughnut fattie on the police force is the desk sergeant. And, he's just got a little pudge. ALL of the cops are encouraged (strongly) to be extremely physically and cardiovascularly fit. It's a requirement to get hired at that precinct. It's a workout just wearing the holster and bullet proof vest...now imagine having to run with that stuff on. If you are not in good/great physical condition, then you will not be able to perform the functions of the job. Unfortunately, in police work, not being able to adequately perform the functions of the job could mean the death of someone.

    It's not about, so much, male/female...but about accepting the inherent limits. Chyna (the bodybuilder) I am sure would be able to kick some major ass. She could be on my police force any day...but the little tiny petite woman who does tae bo to stay in shape. I would prefer that she was on the SVU.

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    I have never seen this Ann Coulter site before nor do I know who she is. With that said I think she's a little backwards in her thinking on some points.

    As for the shooting, I feel bad that this happened, but i don't see how it was the grandma's fault. If this Brian guy is so big and bad, why in the hell wouldn't they have more than one person guarding him?!

    Where I live, you can see a marked difference between the 4 forms of law enforcement.

    1. State cops, either female or male are in TOP physical conditioning and are generally badasses.

    2. City cops; are right below the Staties on conditioning and badassesness.

    3. County cops (or Sheriff's Deputies) are average people IMO. Most of them are overweight, and slow and wouldn't do very well at all in a foot chase or hand to hand. They usually rely on the staties or city to assist them.

    4. Bailifs(and other non cop type cops) They are usually in their 50's or older, out of shape and close to retirement or past retirement. Our local government hires these people to tell people to be quiet in the courtroom, stands there to look imposing, etc... I for one am not really impressed by these people in the way of law enforcement, but I do show respect for their age, their job, and lastly the fact that they are people.

    I think we need to put some of these retirement age people to work as meter maids, working in the tower at the jail and other various jobs where they won't be in the "line of fire".

    As for the overweight, slobby cops that can't pass a physical, FIRE THEM!

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Quote Originally Posted by kitana
    As for the shooting, I feel bad that this happened, but i don't see how it was the grandma's fault. If this Brian guy is so big and bad, why in the hell wouldn't they have more than one person guarding him?!
    Because any superior that dares to suggest that there are some people women should not be guarding risks becoming the defendant in a gender-discrimination suit.
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    In this case, the one person was female, but this could just have easily happened if it had been a male officer alone with him.
    A woman that's 5'1"--grandma or co-ed--has no business being an LE officer in such a capacity; as VG said, if you run even a slight risk of physical confrontation with men or women, it should strictly be large males doing the job. I'm sure some of you here have also seen the popular state trooper footage where a female officer is basically pummeled into a coma right in front of her car cam during a traffic stop. Not a pleasant thing to see, and totally avoidable.

    There's a reason why the most dangerous jobs are still overwhelmingly done by men (construction, police, firemen, loggers, fishermen, et al); because they have the physical capacity to do it, and, more generally, women aren't drawn to those vocations in the first place because of the nature of he work. That's not sexist, it's reality. As Destiny noted, if you say as much in a public forum--or say, if you're the president of Harvard--you're labelled a sexist, misogynistic pig.
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Heres a hint,

    Cop's of both sexes aren't trained in any sort of hand to hand fighting, that is why they carry Night Sticks, Tasers, OC, and Handguns as tools for the job. Most law enforcent training is geared towards paperwork due to judicial, government, and local policy changes.

    If cops are trained for hand to hand fighting it's usually on their own time, one own expense other than the 8 hours given at the academy.

    So those deaths in Atlanta could have happened to anyone else assigned to duty that day. The baliff just had her number drawn.

    So the argument argument behind women cops being inferior to males as cops is very moot.

    To find the cause for that incident in Atlanta to happen one just has to look deeper into it. I can garuntee there were probally budget, local, training, and beauricratic policy issues that contributed as major factors for the Courthouse Shooting to happen. Just trying to blame the dead officer based on gender as the sole cause of this incident is just simplistic and ludicrous.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Quote Originally Posted by madgrad
    Heres a hint,

    Cop's of both sexes aren't trained in any sort of hand to hand fighting, that is why they carry Night Sticks, Tasers, OC, and Handguns as tools for the job. Most law enforcent training is geared towards paperwork due to judicial, government, and local policy changes.

    If cops are trained for hand to hand fighting it's usually on their own time, one own expense other than the 8 hours given at the academy.

    So those deaths in Atlanta could have happened to anyone else assigned to duty that day. The baliff just had her number drawn.

    So the argument argument behind women cops being inferior to males as cops is very moot.

    To find the cause for that incident in Atlanta to happen one just has to look deeper into it. I can garuntee there were probally budget, local, training, and beauricratic policy issues that contributed as major factors for the Courthouse Shooting to happen. Just trying to blame the dead officer based on gender as the sole cause of this incident is just simplistic and ludicrous.
    The term, "hand to hand" was not mine. I'm sure the amount of training law enforcement officers get varies greatly around the country. However, I doubt that there is any police department that hands a police officer a night stick, taser, or any other weapon and just expects them to learn on their own how to use it. The point is, that we a society and police officers themselves prefer to use non-lethal force whenever possible. The facts mentioned in the article and plain old common sense tells you that a large, physically fit, male will be less likely to have to use lethal force than a smaller female. I'll ask again, would you want that grandma as a bouncer in your club? For the sake of argument, let's assume you are correct, that Nichols decided the night before that he was going to attempt an escape the next day. Are you really claiming that had a 6'5" 250 pound ex-marine showed up to escort him to court that he would not have at least have had second thoughts about his plan? Lastly, no one here said that women cops are inferior to men cops. VG correctly pointed out the many areas in law enforcement that women could excel. Pointing out that the sexes are different does not mean that one is inferior to the other.
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    For the sake of argument, let's assume you are correct, that Nichols decided the night before that he was going to attempt an escape the next day. Are you really claiming that had a 6'5" 250 pound ex-marine showed up to escort him to court that he would not have at least have had second thoughts about his plan?
    Some shackles and/or a stun belt would have certainly worked. I'm not sure why our court system thinks that it would be "inherently prejudicial" to let a jury see a man wearing them for safety reasons, esspecially one who had been caught two days earlier with shivs in his shoes.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    I see why the defense would fight that -- making a presumably innocent man look guilty - not that i agree with it.

    There are inconspicuous shackles which could be used, perhaps even some sort of invisible fence that would lock his leg muscles if he strayed outside the courtroom...

    However, if they are going to do that (no restraints) the defendant should be brought in before everyone else arrives, shackled to the HUGE defense table by his leg. Simple, can't get away and the Jury never even notices.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish
    Some shackles and/or a stun belt would have certainly worked. I'm not sure why our court system thinks that it would be "inherently prejudicial" to let a jury see a man wearing them for safety reasons, esspecially one who had been caught two days earlier with shivs in his shoes.
    I agree that it would be prejudicial to the jury to let them see someone led in in shackles. Subconciously, the jury would be thinking, "gee, if the bailifs are that afraid of him, he needs to be locked away, regardless of the facts in the case." Also, don't forget the accused is innocent until proven guilty. So in the eyes of the law he's innocent, no matter how dangerous he may be.
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    I agree that it would be prejudicial to the jury to let them see someone led in in shackles. Subconciously, the jury would be thinking, "gee, if the bailifs are that afraid of him, he needs to be locked away, regardless of the facts in the case." Also, don't forget the accused is innocent until proven guilty. So in the eyes of the law he's innocent, no matter how dangerous he may be.
    That's been the ongoing precedent for years. I just wonder if after such a high profile case of an unschackled defendant causing this much mayhem, if that rationale is going to be reconsidered. As DD suggested, there are possible ways to reduce the visibility of a physical restraint device in the courtroom. One would also would think that if said restaint device were to become "visible" during trial, the presiding judge could just instruct the jury to disregard that in their deliberations.

    One thing that I do know. Brian Nichols will more than likely be wearing a stun belt when he goes on trial for these killings.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    I see why the defense would fight that -- making a presumably innocent man look guilty
    Indeed; perception is too often reality.

    Are you really claiming that had a 6'5" 250 pound ex-marine showed up to escort him to court that he would not have at least have had second thoughts about his plan? Lastly, no one here said that women cops are inferior to men cops. VG correctly pointed out the many areas in law enforcement that women could excel. Pointing out that the sexes are different does not mean that one is inferior to the other.
    Amen.
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Very often the large city male COPs individually sexually discriminate and generally do not support the female COPS who are able to attain the job and tolerate its discriminaroty nature. I'm not talking their abilities. I'm talking their environment, from male cops, their superior, district attorneys, etc. It is a tough job for anyone, male or female, and the employment environment stinks. This is not just my opinion; I have professional, corroborative witnesses here who will attest to it. No wonder they are mean-spirited and abusive.
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    there should be strength tests for pigs
    actually no there shouldnt!
    theyd beat me down

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    Default Re: Affirmative Action by police departments

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Because any superior that dares to suggest that there are some people women should not be guarding risks becoming the defendant in a gender-discrimination suit.
    I didn't say that.

    I said why wasen't there more that one? Every time I see murderers going into the courtroom, there are more than one person guarding them. They could have used more than one person and said it was SOP.

    That's all I meant. And anyone with 1/2 a brain and was in charge should have known that too.

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