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Thread: Looking for a Job in America ...

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    Default Looking for a Job in America ...

    "Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6 a.m. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA).

    After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB.

    At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.....AMERICA....."

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    Default Re: Looking for a Job in America ...

    Precisely...this is ONE of our problems. All of those items contributed to joblessness, WalMart profits (sponsored by government grants and welfare subsidies to underpaid workers), and blowback pollution (since we don't require overseas factories to meet any emissions standards, let alone US standards), and political unrest globally (since we're taking advantage of basically slave-labor conditions overseas - keeping their workers in unsafe, unhealthy factories with subsistence wages that don't reflect anything close to the "real value" of items produced (shoes made for $2 sell for $100).


    Wouldn't it solve alot if we just:
    Paid workers in ANY facility that in any way serves the US economy (globally) a community-based livable wage...lower (probably) in India than in NYC.

    Facotries and facilities that have any relation to (provide service or products to, operate in, etc) the US economy must meet basic safety and environmental and community protection (to avoid Bhopal, India from being gassed again) standards

    Profitable companies should NOT be allowed to have workers on public assistance because the wage scale is too low (see point 1). Exclusions for kids from welfare families taking their first jobs, etc - things outside the direct control of the worker/company.

    Wow. Capitalism in a free, global economy!

    Put your factory where you want, as long as it's safe, clean and pays a good (non governemtn subsidized) wage to workers. Pay your employees what the market will allow, but they are NOT allowed to receive public assistance and you must pay them enough to ensure they don't qualify. Make your profit (without governemtn tax breaks or subsidies) cleanly, pay your taxes and be done. May the best company win! May the worker progress as far as ability will allow.

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    Default Re: Looking for a Job in America ...

    This is utter bull crap!! I cannot believe that this man is wearing a watch made in Taiwan!! Everyone knows the best watches come from SWITZERLAND!! heh heh

    The problem is that all of those places don't have workers who demand health and dental care, want to work 8 hour days and get a paid hour lunch along with two 15 minute breaks. They don't demand being paid $9 an hour (or more). You don't have those other countries raising the "minimum wage". You just have a bunch of people who work themselves to death to barely make it better than they had it before the businesses came in. And, then you have the execs rolling in the big bucks because instead of paying $25 to manufacture a pair of shoes that retailed at $125, they now have a pair of shoes that cost them $5 and retail at $125. They don't care who they hurt...as long as they are lining their pockets...they could care less what the long term consequences are.

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    Default Re: Looking for a Job in America ...

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    .they could care less what the long term consequences are.
    exactly..but shouldn't we, as educated Americans with our economic future on the line (not to mention environmental future, social unrest, etc) care?

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    Default Re: Looking for a Job in America ...

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    exactly..but shouldn't we, as educated Americans with our economic future on the line (not to mention environmental future, social unrest, etc) care?
    Are you kidding me - I know people who yell at the microwave because it is taking so long...

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    Default Re: Looking for a Job in America ...

    exactly..but shouldn't we, as educated Americans with our economic future on the line (not to mention environmental future, social unrest, etc) care?
    If we're smart, yes we should. This of course means investing in companies which produce those shoes overseas at a $5 cost, because it's only a matter of time before any US competitors producing shoes at a $25 cost go bankrupt. This of course also means structuring our finances to minimize the impact of higher property taxes, higher state income taxes, higher sales taxes etc. as the state must pay a years worth of unemployment to each US shoe worker who is permanently laid off, plus several years worth of social benefits while they sit home and refuse to take a different job which pays what it is truly worth in terms of added value.


    by the way, here's the entire article from which the American Job Search was excerpted ...

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    Default Re: Looking for a Job in America ...

    I see...so we should only care about our own life, and not the larger impacts our actions have on other people and the country? That's the kind of thinking that led to such poor employment prospects to begin with.

    I say that we should invest in companies that are to be profitable, YES. Some of these will work overseas...no problem. But we should require of these companies the same environmental, safety and worker pay (commensurate to the community, which will be a developing country's advantage)as we would expect of their US operations. Otherwise, all we're doing is exporting our problems and importing issues like joblessness and lack of opportunity.

    what we have now is companies outsourcing because it is cheaper for them, they avoid alot of US taxes and fees (more profit) leave behind abandoned buildings and property (the government has to clean up and lose tax revenue from) and employees who can't find a decent job with all the outsourcing. America outsources much of its:

    Manufacturing
    IT/internet business
    Call center activity
    professional services (many hospitals are now using overseas radiologists to read MRIs and other data as part of cutting patient care costs)

    Simultaneously we're lowering
    Clean air standards, water standards, energy efficiency standards in US plants to increase profit
    Cost of retail and other workers, because the government picks up the tab for their health care and living expenses...ESPECIALLY in your prison example
    average worker salary, when over-the-top executive salaries are taken out of the mix (1 person making 1BB a year will skew the numbers more than 100 people underpaid)

    We're continuing or growing
    Subsidies to profitable, extraction-based industries
    subsidies and tax breaks to develoipers of open-space (sprawl) while restricting support for community initiatives and grants for revitalizing old properties
    partisan politics, and exclusion (as Cheney did on the energy bill) of those who disagree with us from the discussion

    And making it harder to fund:
    Companies or industries that offer real promise in the future, but don't have the mass market to yet be profitable
    New technologies to take us off the extraction industry bandwagon


    Leaving us with:
    A nation with a dwindling economic prospect
    Little to no manufacutring base - unlike even our depression era
    a lacsidasical, consuming-is-all-that-matters populace
    very dependent on other nations and their supplies, governments and products
    prime target for attack from overseas, since we don't have the ability to fight back without international alliance
    social unrest, both internally (super poor vs super rich) and externally (just ask middle east fanatics)
    A government which realizes we're ok with it making all the rules, and that keeps growing (formerly something republicans hated, but now their best friend) and growing

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    Default Re: Looking for a Job in America ...

    I have made proposals elsewhere of how we can fix this, get us off the government teat, and balance our ability to trade with teh rest of the world (where our prices won't be SO out of line)

    Of course, this takes FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY which seems to be lacking as well as POLITICAL COURAGE. Part of my program would also include ELIMINATING THE ABILITY for the feds to raise the debt ceiling except in time of war.

    Why is it so bad to force our importers to follow the same basic guidelines we require US companies to? Do we like exporting our money (to overseas affiliates of US firms) and importing pollution and joblesness?

    Why is it so bad to require people on welfare get jobs, and those jobs to have enough money with them to provide for the people working?

    why is it so bad to believe that there's something more importnat than 90 day profits?

    I don't think it is, and neither does the Dow Jones Index of Sustainable Companies . Businesses proving the balance of economics, ethics and lifestyle everyday.
    why is

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    Default Re: Looking for a Job in America ...

    Leaving us with:
    A nation with a dwindling economic prospect
    Little to no manufacutring base - unlike even our depression era
    a lacsidasical, consuming-is-all-that-matters populace
    very dependent on other nations and their supplies, governments and products
    prime target for attack from overseas, since we don't have the ability to fight back without international alliance
    social unrest, both internally (super poor vs super rich) and externally (just ask middle east fanatics)
    A government which realizes we're ok with it making all the rules, and that keeps growing (formerly something republicans hated, but now their best friend) and growing
    All fantasy based on vacuum-economics. Globalization is here to stay; embrace it or stagnate a la 1990s Japan. Ignoring global labor trends, even with laudable sustainability intentions, is simply foolish.

    US growth has consistently been over three percent per annum even in bad years; it's on track for 5%.

    Manufacturing does not dictate the viability of the American economy; unskilled and semi-skilled labor can be found anywhere.

    Simultaneously we're lowering
    Clean air standards, water standards, energy efficiency standards in US plants to increase profit
    Cost of retail and other workers, because the government picks up the tab for their health care and living expenses..
    If all of this were true, US manufacturers would be more inclined to stay stateside, rather than go overseas. But this is all fantasy.

    From the BLS:

    Annual average unemployment rates were down in all four regions and 43
    states in 2004, while employment-population ratios were little changed in
    three regions and half the states, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the
    U.S. Department of Labor reported today. At the national level, the job-
    less rate fell by 0.5 percentage point to 5.5 percent, while the employ-
    ment-population ratio was unchanged at 62.3 percent.
    The sky is not falling.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Looking for a Job in America ...

    1. "Environmental Rollbacks Threaten Progress" http://www.cardin.house.gov/Issues-E...TICLE4129=4149

    or
    http://www.nrdc.org/media/pressreleases/030401a.asp
    Cheapening the Value Of Life: The Bush Administration's Death Discount

    The Bush administration recently added a new tool to its anti-environmental kit that could significantly change the way the government assesses and regulates environmental threats. The tool is a biased form of cost-benefit analysis that makes regulations appear less worthwhile by lowering the hypothetical monetary value of human life.



    No one is saying the rules are completely rolled back (though this administration and some of the previous ones have taken steps...though Clinton did less of it than Bush) but we are headed that way. Still, since we don't require overseas operations to match our rules (whatever they are) countries with no rules will always have unfair advantage

    2. globalization is here to stay, but why not balance the rules? If other countries want to sell to the US, if US companies want to work overseas, they must protect those overseas environments and people as much as they would have to in the US. Otherwise, we're providing an unfair advantage to other countries....putting our stability in their hands.

    Note: The US is the only country I've worked with that values its ability to import more than it values the safety and economic prospects of its citizens

    Also, if you think it's unskilled and semi skilled labor being outsourced, check out where company call centers, some IT and medical services, and other "professional" services are now being sourced.
    Check this article, pasted because it required a password to link:
    Experts reveal hidden costs of offshore outsourcing
    Johanna Ambrosio
    23 Apr 2003
    Rating: -5.00- (out of 5)

    Offshore outsourcing is a fast-growing trend among IT shops. Just be careful -- the much-vaunted savings isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to be.

    Gartner Inc. predicts that 40% of companies with revenue of more than $100 million will be piloting or using offshore services by the end of 2004, compared with 10% that are outsourcing work overseas today.

    Purveyors of offshore services -- who deal in everything from application maintenance to IT help desk work -- rightly tout a vast differential in the cost of labor in some countries outside the United States. And while this is true, other costs, for infrastructure, travel and training, for example, can lower the overall savings by a substantial margin.

    "There's a difference between the wage rate and the charge rate," explains Debashish Sinha, a principal analyst at Stamford, Conn.-based Gartner. "The wage rate might be 70% lower in India than it is here, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a 70% cheaper charge rate from the vendor involved." The supplier needs a profit margin, too.

    Other costs to consider include any hardware and software needed to duplicate the client's environment, which can be pricey overseas, with taxes, duties and other extra charges. Then, too, a dedicated or leased line from the offshore team back to IT central can add to the cost. Even if you're dealing with a vendor that already has a building and its own infrastructure in place, expect to pay your share of the costs for all these things.

    Travel costs figure into the mix, too, because customers ought to go to the offshore locations to help establish strong working relationships. So says Rodney Smith, director of technology for Chicago-based Apartments.com, an online listing of rental properties throughout the United States. Smith went to India 11 times during an eight-year period to visit with the people he calls "an extension of my team."

    In another example, Xerox Corp.'s manager of global software operations, Brian Segnit, manages approximately 300 offshore IT staffers in India, Brazil and Singapore. He started Xerox's first offshore operation about 13 years ago. He says that cost estimates also need to include time zone issues, culture, language and a myriad of other factors.

    "There are costs involved with managing distributed development," he says. While some customers prefer to operate around the clock with teams in various geographic regions around the world, others feel that's too much trouble to manage; instead, they prefer to work with outsourcers one time zone away in a nearby country such as Canada, rather than India, which is 12 hours ahead of East Coast time.

    And while customers of offshore services swear by the quality of what's produced, saying the error rate is on par or even lower than acceptable U.S. quality standards, there is "some question about productivity," Segnit says. Still, if the rate is low enough, managers can hire extra hands to make up for the slack.

    Overall, though, because of the cheap labor rates elsewhere in the world, "there's a lot of wiggle room," William Martorelli, an analyst with Forrester Research, in Cambridge, Mass., explains. "So those other costs, if you manage them correctly, won't neutralize the savings."

    In addition to understanding the labor costs, customers need to take into account where the offshore outsourcing takes place. The majority of offshore outsourcing takes place in India, which has up to three-quarters of the market. Despite the time difference from the United States, one big attraction there is that English is commonly spoken in India; therefore, communication barriers are not quite as significant as they are in other parts of the world. Other hot areas for offshore outsourcing these days include China, Ireland and the countries making up the former Soviet Union.

    There are several paths to take to get to offshore outsourcing. One is to work with a global services provider such as IBM Corp., Hewlett-Packard Co. or Electronic Data Systems Corp., all of which have substantial global resources. In some cases, the customer may not even know that people all over the globe worked on a particular project.

    Another way to do offshore is to work with a specialty vendor. Just as in the domestic outsourcing market, there are some differences in what vendors will take on. Full-service offshore outsourcers include Infosys Technologies Ltd., in Fremont, Calif., and Wipro Technologies, in Mountain View, Calif. Other names include Trigent Software Inc., in Southborough, Mass.; Aviana Global Technologies, in Diamond Bar, Calif.; and NaviStorm LLC, in Princeton, N.J.

    A more complicated option -- but one that might be a solution for a long-term offshore arrangement -- would be to contract with an overseas vendor that will eventually turn over the joint venture to the customer.

    In the 15 years or so that offshore outsourcing has been common, IT shops have turned to overseas providers for projects including custom application development and application maintenance. Still, today's offshore services are much more complex than those of the past, offering help with everything from IT help desk work to business processes, including call centers, desktop support, accounts payable, supply chain management and many other types of service.

    Another trend is the growing tendency of IT customers to look at offshore staffers as an on-demand resource from other countries, to supplement skills they can't always hire quickly in the U.S.

    In addition to the financial issues, offshore outsourcing customers offer other caveats. Chief among them is this one: Choose your projects carefully. Longer-term projects that need larger teams do well in offshore outsourcing situations, observers say, whereas those that need really fast turnaround time -- or constant input from business users -- aren't such good candidates.

    Also, be prepared, Apartment.com's Smith says: "You have to have a good process in place, with clear, concise requirements." Even simple tasks like removing slang, which Americans tend to use even in business communication, can make all the difference. "Say what you mean, and mean what you say. They're a half-day ahead of you," if they're in India, and so planning is key. The old programming motto applies here, too, he says, "Garbage in, garbage out."

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    Finally, the jobless rate doesn't take into account the fact that many of those "good jobs" require the employees to take gov't handouts to survive. That's not "all good" in my book.

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