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Thread: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

  1. #1
    mermaidnz
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    Default "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    yup.
    gonna piss off LOTS of people here on this one, not my intention, but i know it a touchy subject.


    i was chatting to a customer last night, then he started pulling out the "ohhh im in the army" routine,acting like he was god cos he was in the army.i always ask what actually they DO in the army, cooks,mechanics etc are cool, but people who TRAIN to kill/murder and maime...uhhh they geta bit of a debate

    he was an arms dude who shoots to kill.

    so i threw the usual annoying questions at him- do you feel proud for murdering people? why do you be in the army etc etc. no need for detail- but i AM a bitch on this topic ( and yes, its something i know NOTHING about, so really im just doing it for a responce...im annoying like that)


    after about half an hour arguying about the morality of killing in "war" and killing "on the street" etc, he said " oh i went to an anti war protest last week, and got called a baby killer, do you know how that feels?" and i (being the bitch that i am...and now totally regret this comment a million percent) said " well, you kill a guy in war, he has a wife and kids at home, you kill him, you effectivly kill his wife, his kids, any future babies actually, you kill the whole damn bloodline...."ooops..... poor dude almost started crying...a horrible thing to say i know now....i said sorry straight after etc... but now i feel really bad, im sure he gets bs from people all the time about being in the army, and he sure the hell didnt need it from some stupid stipper when he was having a quiet night out with his mate.

    oh i feel bad


    but, in saying that, he did mention during the night that he " felt really good when he kills someone" lol is it just me, or if he said that after murdering someone in "cold blood" on the streets, in court, theyd throw the damn book at him, lock him the hell up for some time and reminde him of the chamical imbalances he must have from recieving a positive feeling after taking someones life?!!!


    fuck the army/marines what ever ya call it. tis bs actaully....i hope my sons one day grow up to be gay lol

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    Featured Member Muyaha's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    trying to look cool. that's why he acted the way he did to try to impress you.

    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them.

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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Grappled with that scenario myself a few years ago.

    At this point in time, I agree with the Founders who felt that standing armies were a threat to Liberty.

    I've been reading and writing and researching the topic and at this point I can state pretty clearly that the Federal military has never defended America, not even during the Revolution. It pretty much got in the way there and every war since I disagree with.

    Smedley Butler, a Marine General who won two medals of honor came to a similar conclusion about his time in service. Worth reading:




    War is just a racket. I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

    It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers.

    I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

    I helped make Mexico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

    During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
    That's a demi-God of the Marine Corps talking there. We learn all about him in boot camp and study him more in other military professional schools, yet somehow they always leave out this.

    You observation, while out of step with the reflexive "support the troops" prole-ese, is pretty objective. The problem is most will excuse crime when it is commited by state agents. Robbery becomes taxation, murder becomes "collateral damage", etc.

    There is nothing at all to be proud of in killing, even defensively. The qualifier there is unforunately not one the military can speak of since the majority of our campaigns have been offensive.

    When the military protects "American interests" abroad, what that really means is it is protecting CERTAIN, PRIVATE, business interests, not the interests of the Republic. Same goes for government employees that claim to be in "public service." Fact is, they serve the government first and usually only. And since the government is in the hands of nefarious characters more often than not, we can see the result.

    Would the military turn on the people? You bet. Not only that but they had plans to harm americans to get a war started:


    Additionally, I'm in the group that also feels 9-11 was an inside job commited by factions of our government, with bin laden and "Al Qaeda" being willing patsies. I also think the government bombed the Oklahoma city building and even before that, the original WTC bombing, which was proven to have had FBI involvement from start to finish.

    Why do we get involved in wars?

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Hello~Kitty's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    I also think the current administration had something to do with 9/11.

    I think they "allowed" it to happen so they could have a "reason" start this war. I have seen way too much that shows that attacking Iraq was wanted and in the works way before 9/11. Years and years before.

    Many of the very same people now in power here in the U.S were part of a neocon think tank that had basicly blue prints for this war from all the way back into the mid 90's. They wanted war.

    Not trying to be antirepublican or anything because it's not the party itself I have a problem with, not at all actually... but what we have in GW Bush and his bunch aren't real republicans anyway. It's just a facade to fool voters. Sad thing is it worked.
    Last edited by Hello~Kitty; 04-01-2005 at 08:21 PM.

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    God/dess erotictonic's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hello~Kitty
    I also think the current administration had something to do with 9/11.

    I think they "allowed" it to happen so they could have a "reason" start this war. I have seen way too much that shows that attacking Iraq was wanted and in the works way before 9/11. Years and years before.

    Many of the very same people now in power here in the U.S were part of a neocon think tank that had basicly blue prints for this war from all the way back into the mid 90's. They wanted war.

    Not trying to be antirepublican or anything because it's not the party itself I have a problem with, not at all actually... but what we have in GW Bush and his bunch aren't real republicans anyway. It's just a facade to fool voters. Sad thing is it worked.
    Nearly ALL politicians are fakes. They'll say anything to get in power. Bush is no better or worse. Nearly all of them do things on a daily basis that I wouldn't.

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    Veteran Member Hello~Kitty's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Very true ! But some are worse than others, IMHO.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Anti-republican - fucking anti-intelligence - that is what it is.

    I can't believe the naivety of some people.

    To compare a soldier to a killer - that is like comparing a cop to a killer if he has to use his weapon.

    You all wonder why the country is going so far to the right? Lame ass thinking and reasoning as what was written here. People like YOU are making the swing voters go to the right with that kind of reasoning. YOU are empowering the abuse of the power of this nation by putting neo-con's into power.

    I am so disgusted by what I have read that I can't write anymore tonight. The world so full of fucking idiots.

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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Thank you Deogol! Someone else who has a little sense, I like you already. I gave up 5 years of my life for my country in the USMC and to hear someone who most likely has done nothing for the good of society trash it breaks my heart. To those of you who want to trash those who serve, it is because of THEM that YOU can do what you want to do. We have not had the reason to "defend" our country because we are one of the most powerful nations in the world. No one has the balls to attack us directly. That is why YOU can do what makes you happy.

    Think on this. Imagine that you worked your ass off all night and did tons of dances while other girls just sat around doing nothing. At the end of the night all of the money made by all of the girls was put together in one lump sum and divided evenly between those who busted their ass and those who sat on their ass. Can you imagine that? That my friends is liberalism!

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    God/dess colleen's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Deogol, I am neither disgusted nor surprised by what has been written here, but I am a littel bit sad about it. I'm really sorry that a bunch of people who are as articulate as the people on this board, and who frequently claim to be free-thinkers outside the norms usually imposed by a small-minded society, woudl take such narrow-minded opinions.

    First of all, I am a US army veteran myself. I served in Germany and also did two tours in the Illinois National Guard. My career was communications, but I am a trained killer. I am proficient with an M-16, and adequate with hand greanades, mines, grenade launchers, and machine guns. So taking a cop-out attitude like it's ok to be a cook but not an artilliry operator is just plain uninformed. I assume that all military training is similar to american basic training: everybody has to lean how to handle weapons at some point or another.

    Am I proud of being a vet? You bet. My army portrait is hanging on the wall next to my medals and the portraits of my dad and grandfather. I am a 5th generation soldier and the first woman in my family to join the military. I am proud of having done a lot of things most people would be afraid to try, proud of my weapons proficiency, and proud of having served my country.

    I have known soldiers who have killed in combat and some who did not. (I personally never saw combat) I knew soldiers I was honored to call my friends, and I have known solders who disgusted me with their cruelty or stupidity. LIke any other large institution, thare are all kinds of people who are in the military for all kinds of reasons. How dare you stereotype us?

    I am positively aware taht the Support the Troops movement in the US is a bunch of porpaganda, in that anyone who does not agree with the US involvemet in Iraq is accused of not supporting the troops. However, it is no more a piece of propaganda than the articles that Sh0t posted. IMO, the "What Really Happened" site is no better than a supermarket tabloid. I have seen their material before.

    As to mermaidnz's original question, the answere is Yes, being a soldier is unequivically different form being a murderer on the street. HEre are a few of the many reasons why:

    1. A soldier gives up many of his personal rights and liberties when joining the military, including the right to protect his own life and to avoid putting himself into a dangerous situation. In effect, if his surperior tells him, "go out there and get shot at," he goes. Your average murderer gives up no rights or liberties unless he gets caught for having already killed someone. He follows no ones orders but his own.

    2. Soldiers generally shoot at other soldiers, who also signed up for the job. Everybody knew what he was signing up for. The avarage murder victim does not have a job where "getting shot at" is part of his job description.

    3. Soldiers live under strict rules and dicipline. They kill when it is appropriate and necessary for thier mission, which is generally to preserve the lives of thier comrades. Murderers kill for thier own reasons, at their own discretion and liberty, and generally not to preserve anyone's life.

    4. Signing the papers that committ a person to the military is an act of faith and courage. You hope you will come through the experience alive and intact, but there is no guarentee. Murderers and street thugs are cowards, who sneek up on unsuspcting, likely unarmed, victims and believe they will never get caught.

    These are a few examples, and by no means a complete list of differences between soldiers and ordinary street thugs or serial killers.

    ANd now for the diaclaimer, because I know some people will bring this up:

    Everyone knows damn well that in many or maybe even all wars, at some time, some atrocities are committed. These are in no way the majority of events. I do not include renegade soldiers who become war criminals in the points I jsut made. Those points were meant to reflect the majority of service members acting in the majority of cases.

    On to another point:

    Shot, I bet you are a sports fan. The point of having a standing army was stated very succinctly by the late, great Vince Lonbadi: "The best defense is a good offence." Thanks to the intimidation value of the largest, best equipped, best trained volunteer army in the world, the US has been attacked on its own soil exactaly twice in the last hundred years. Only once if you insist on counting 9-1-1 as an inside job. When I was in the army, I felt proud to be one of the thousands of individuals who added up to such an intimidating sum.

    And my third point:

    Deogol is absolutely right that poor reasoning ability and lack of logical thinking are some of the biggest problems America faces today. It is a heard mentality that most people have, (my opinion is that it is beaten into them in the public school system, but that is another post!) tht once an opinion becomes popular, it becomes almost universsally accepted and repeatd in a parrot-like fashion. Most of the perople repeating it have not really thought it through, they are jsut repeating what they hear. Most people are lazy thinkers, and they prefer to have their opinions fed to them, preferably in small sound bites. If you watched the bush/kerry debates last fall, you will understand what I mean by this. Although Kerry came off as more intelligent, more prepared, and having given more thought to the issues, Bush came out the winner because he repeated short, direct (although non-sensical or even jsut plain untrue) statements in sound-bite fashion. At the exit polls, peopel overwehlminly said they voted for Bush because they felt they were clear on what Bush stood for.

    Currently there are two predominant schools of thought regarding the US involvemet in Iraq: One is the "Support the troops, support the war, support the country" school, where anyone who disagrees (as I do) with US involvementn in Iraq is criticised as being un-patriotic and un-American. the other is simply the knee-jerk opposite reaction, that solders and Americn government are all evil. Both are based on equally small-minded, immature, black-and-white thinking. That is the kind of childish thought process that links all peopel who carry weapons into a single category, i.e. soldier=baby killer. (or for a more familier comparison, try stripper=prostitute=drug addict=disturbed product of abusive childhood)

    We dancers as a group hate being sterotyped, the object of some body else's narrow-minded thinking. But look at what has been posted in this thread: more examples of lazy, small-minded thinking, just like the kind we hate when it is applied to us.

    We should know that the world is not so black-and-white as we like to believe it is. Everything involves some shades of grey. While I fully support everyones right to thier own opinions, I wish everyone woudl exercise the rights inherent in a free society and use their God-given powers of reasoning to create opinions that are sound, logical, and completely their own, not a bunch of regurgitated drivel trying to pass as original.

    PS: MermaidNZ, are you telling us that you spent over half an hour alienating a customer and killing a sale? Sorry, honey, but you deserve to feel a littel dumb for that reason alone, never mind the rest of it.

    As to your sons being gay, that won't nececarilly keep them out of the military. Another ill-informed statement.
    Last edited by colleen; 04-04-2005 at 01:38 AM. Reason: add picture


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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    I support the troops...not so much this damn war (didn't we declare victory a LONG time ago?) but certainly those who serve.

    Some in uniform are thugs, some are theives, but any group of humans will have bad apples...certailnly the USCMJ does its best to weed them out

    TO say no war has been just says you don't care about millions persecuted under Hitler, the fact that our national survival was at stake after Pearl Harbor, and anything about WW 1 or 2. THose two wars WERE needed...I can see a debate with any after that (though I don't personally agree in all cases) but certainly those 2 were key and necessary. Sometimes humans need to kill each other to determine who's ideas are right. Dumb, but then we are meat.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Oh, I'm actually working on a fundraiser for military families - a series of pinup-style calendars and posters and such

    1. anyone suggest a good charity to give the profits to?

    2. anyone want to get involved?

  12. #12
    God/dess colleen's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    I would love to be involved. The USO is as good a charity as any. They are very helpful to traveling military as well as providing entertainment, which is also important.

    THe Stars and Stripes newspaper might also be a good recipient, or may be willing to give you some press coverage or even print an order form or advertisement for you. They used to not accept any outside advertising, but things have changed a lot for them, so I am not so sure now.


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    God/dess colleen's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Quote Originally Posted by sultrysiren
    Thank you Deogol! Someone else who has a little sense, I like you already. I gave up 5 years of my life for my country in the USMC and to hear someone who most likely has done nothing for the good of society trash it breaks my heart. To those of you who want to trash those who serve, it is because of THEM that YOU can do what you want to do. We have not had the reason to "defend" our country because we are one of the most powerful nations in the world. No one has the balls to attack us directly. That is why YOU can do what makes you happy.

    Think on this. Imagine that you worked your ass off all night and did tons of dances while other girls just sat around doing nothing. At the end of the night all of the money made by all of the girls was put together in one lump sum and divided evenly between those who busted their ass and those who sat on their ass. Can you imagine that? That my friends is liberalism!
    Thank you SS. This is perfect! and absolutely true.

    Welcome to another military chick. Hope to see you back here!


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    When you perform... you are out of yourself--larger and more potent, more beautiful. You are for minutes heroic. This is power. This is glory on earth. And it is yours, nightly.

    --Agnes De Mille

  14. #14
    Veteran Member merely_lurking's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    I support the troops...not so much this damn war (didn't we declare victory a LONG time ago?) but certainly those who serve.
    I am not in favor of the invasion of Iraq, and I emphatically do not support the troops. I don't see how you can have it both ways. The troops are the ones engaging in the war. Invading a country for trumped up reasons and killing its citizens is immoral, but I'm supposed to support the people who are doing it because they are just following orders? I realize that some people may disagree with me about the legitimacy of the invasion of Iraq, but if you do think that the invasion was unfounded, I don't see how you can support the troops that are going over there to kill people.
    A fat chick is like a big, warm, comfortable pillow that you can also have sex with....

  15. #15
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    I am neither proud nor ashamed of having been in the military. I signed up for it with my eyes open. The country and I both got something out of it. Everybody who joined in the branch that I was in learned proper combat skills.

    I am, however, specifically proud to have been a Marine, an outfit that puts its flesh on the line to promote and protect the country's and its people's interests, and does its dangerous job superbly well. It's not up to the Marines to formulate policy - just up to them to stand guard, to kick ass when told, and make sure to bring their own dead and wounded back. I never saw combat, which is just as well with me, although if I had, I hope that I would've conducted myself in the proud, proper tradition.

    I was in long enough ago to have heard it all - the sneers from the Sh0t types and the cheers of the discretedancer types. Thirty-somethings in the '70s would insult me - twenty-somethings in the '00s say "thank you," and insist on buying me a beer. All part of the human experience.

    If someone wants to call me a murderer in training during that time, I disagree, but I won't argue or even resent it. The right to say that is one of the rights that my old outfit has sacrificed its people to defend.

    SF, SS.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Quote Originally Posted by merely_lurking
    I am not in favor of the invasion of Iraq, and I emphatically do not support the troops.
    Sad for you, to have such a black and white view. I don't support the "war on drugs", should I not be supportive of the men and women in law enforcement who put their lives on the line every day to protect and serve?

    The war in iraq is one thing our military does...we can't cut off the entire force because of it. The people we voted into office (51 misguided percent of us) are giving the orders...none of them with family actually IN THE SERVICE.

    These men and women sign up, get crappy pay (mostly) put their lives on the line for an IDEAL. the ideal is YOUR FREEDOM and safety. That their superiors tell them to go somewhere and do something based on bad info isn't their fault.

    No, they shouldn't do immoral things like attack innocent civillians. That happens, but it's rare. Those responsible should be punished. But the rest deserve our respect and support. I don't see you risking your life to protect anything of mine.

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    Veteran Member Hello~Kitty's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Quote Originally Posted by colleen
    If you watched the bush/kerry debates last fall, you will understand what I mean by this. Although Kerry came off as more intelligent, more prepared, and having given more thought to the issues, Bush came out the winner because he repeated short, direct (although non-sensical or even jsut plain untrue) statements in sound-bite fashion. At the exit polls, peopel overwehlminly said they voted for Bush because they felt they were clear on what Bush stood for. .
    I couldn't agree with you more.

    Quote Originally Posted by colleen
    Currently there are two predominant schools of thought regarding the US involvemet in Iraq: One is the "Support the troops, support the war, support the country" school, where anyone who disagrees (as I do) with US involvementn in Iraq is criticised as being un-patriotic and un-American. .
    Again, I agree ! I don't dislike republicans or government or military , I just think it is being used improperly right now. And actually recently that got me called a "liberal biased loon" and this wasn't even in a political discussion really , it was on the right to die issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by colleen
    the other is simply the knee-jerk opposite reaction, that solders and Americn government are all evil..
    Which is silly, IMO.There is a time and place for military action.

    Quote Originally Posted by colleen
    I wish everyone woudl exercise the rights inherent in a free society and use their God-given powers of reasoning to create opinions that are sound, logical, and completely their own, not a bunch of regurgitated drivel trying to pass as original. .
    Example of discrimination (Imho):

    the only prudent way to treat Islamics in the US and western europe today is along the same vein as Russians and Eastern Europeans were treated during the 'cold war' days - with some degree of suspicion warranted until proven otherwise !

    http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44590




  18. #18
    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re: "why are you PROUD to be a murderer??"

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    To compare a soldier to a killer - that is like comparing a cop to a killer if he has to use his weapon.
    While I whole heartedly agree with your general standpoint, I disagree that it applies in this specific situation (i.e. the original post).

    Someone boasting how much they enjoy killing people and bragging about this as it's a position of power- it's no different from a psychopath with a badge to say he's on the 'good side'. Good soldiers and cops aren't psychopaths, but killing is indeed a supportable part of their duty.

    Cops are no different. "Bad" cops are thrown in jail for murder on various occasions and they should equally be considered an unjust use of power.

    This by no means condemns soldiers or police officers from appropriate usage of force to guarantee their safety, the safety of others, or in a soldier's case- the orchestration of a mission which involves bloodshed. These individuals make the greatest sacrifice in order to provide us the comfy beds we can sleep peacefully within.

    Boasting of skill-sets achieved in the line of killing is what I consider fair game, though. For example, a sharp-shooter that boasts how accurately he can hit a target from 100 yards isn't boasting how much enjoyment he gets from killing someone, he's instead rightfully boasting of an acquired skill he has worked hard to achieve.

    I give 100% of my support to police officers and soldiers that actually try to become exceptional in their line of work, even if said climb involves having to kill or being desensitized in a neutral way to killing. It's part of the job. I do, however, have little tolerance for anyone, such as in the original post, that boasts or expresses enjoyment, thrill or getting a rise out of ending human life. There is a substantial difference. One is committed to their career, the other should just be committed.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

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    Last Post: 02-29-2008, 08:00 AM

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