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Thread: RIP Pope John Paul II

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    Veteran Member devilsadvocate667's Avatar
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    Default RIP Pope John Paul II

    In a nation where we have religious phonies exploiting religion to win elections and manipulate people for partisan politics, while the political types who pretend to be Christian actually live their lives with total and complete hatred and antithesis to what Christianity actually is, the Pope lived his life according to everything he taught.

    The current leadership of the USA could learn a few things from the life of the Pope and a little about humility.


  2. #2
    smartcookie
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Yes, I really feel a kinship for the Pope. Birth control is an abomination, and women should not be admitted to the clergy under any circumstances.

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    The Church will never change rapidly as Society wants or even needs. It is the conservative anchor and always will be. Maybe that is good, maybe not. But it is the Church.

    Still, within the context of the Church, he was a great Pope, certainly of those in this century, and he performed good acts which will live on forever in history, along with those of people like Gandhi.
    Last edited by threlayer; 04-04-2005 at 01:27 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Veteran Member Hello~Kitty's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by smartcookie
    Yes, I really feel a kinship for the Pope. Birth control is an abomination, and women should not be admitted to the clergy under any circumstances.
    That seems pretty cold.

    Maybe you are unaware of all the other things this Pope has done for the world.

    Here is a post from the Lounge that may enlighten you a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ_Duane
    He has been one of the most - if not THE most - influencial Popes of all time.

    His support of the Polish labor union Solidarity resulted in the breakdown of the Warsaw Pact and the eventual fall of the Soviet Union. He was a seminarian in Poland during World War 2 and in the early day of the Communist takeover of his country.

    It could be said that his election to the Papacy was the deathknell for the Soviet system and the attempt on his life in 1981, blamed on the KGB, was to be the seal of doom for the Communist system around the world.

    He visited Cuba, being the first Pontiff to ever do so.

    He has travelled more widely than any Pope before him and has always seemed to be appreciated by the local Catholics, despite certain differences of opinion held by certain Catholic laymen and laity, most notably in the USA.
    In addition to that he reached out to most every major religion, put aside the differences and worked with them in combating poverty around the world.

    He also was the first to aplogize for past negative actions by the Church such as the Crusades for an example.

    He was a great man and is deserving of more respect than the cold comments you offered, IMHO.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    This pope was the most influential of the last century at least. More than that, he helped change the world several times, bridging gaps between religions (the first Pope to pray in a temple, the first Pope to travel overseas for political unity, the first Pope to meet with non-catholic leaders, etc).

    Here's a few things he did

    http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/sto...20020528NYP177

    Though birth control is an important issue with Catholocism (I'm born a Catholic but don't really practice) to narrow the scope of this organization to one topic (which is shared by ALOT of faiths) is wrong and rude.

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    God/dess NinaDaisy's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    He condoned pederasty. That in my book cancels out shaking the hands of millions when he deigned to step out of the Popemobile. Cool hat, though!

    Yes, it's still a tragedy that he passed away, but NO ONE gets to be the pope without serious politicking and that kind of metworking leaves a lot of room for sin and hypocrisy.

    Signed,

    NinaDaisy
    Lapsed Catholic
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

    Ernest Hemingway on writer, aviation pioneer and horse trainer Beryl Markham


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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by NinaDaisy
    He condoned pederasty.
    I don't think you can say he condoned it. It was kept secret for years from top Church authorities for obvious reasons (status and jobs of underlings). The Pope held a council with ALL the top people (Cardinals, Bishops from the USA) and made it clear to them he would not tolerate it.

    I'm sure there is always a case of a priest or a few over the world accused of doing something nasty (even murder). But I cannot believe he would have excused this if he had any hint of the extent of it.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  8. #8
    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer
    The Church will never change rapidly as Society wants or even needs...
    I thought church was supposed to change people, not the other way around.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Featured Member LilSweetVixen's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    I thought church was supposed to change people, not the other way around.
    Exactly. Where's the Christian philosophy in the Church? It has gradually become more and more elitist and bureacratic. The higher up you are the more credit you get for doing things that normal people should do, like have an opinion about something or visit a foreign country. With that said I don't like to speak ill of the dead.

    "You have demonic genius" -Naomi Wolf
    "I very much resent it when people - maybe with good intentions or from a progressive point of view - keep telling me, 'It's their culture' ... It's like saying the culture of Massachusetts is burning witches." -Azar Nafisi


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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    I thought church was supposed to change people, not the other way around.
    LSV, I think maybe I didn't make myself very clear. First, let me say that I'm not really religious. What I meant was that as an organization, the church should be seeking to change people, not be changed by what people see as "popular" or deem "progressive" or "politically correct". All the stuff about celibacy, birth control and women priests. Well you know in a perverse way, I have to admire an organization that says, "hey, we've been doing it this way for 2,000 years, we're not changing." I mean isn't that what church should be about? Showing people the error of their ways (sins) and how to be better? There was somebody famous that said, "I'd never be a member of a club that would have me as a member". That's sort of how church should be, it should demand that people try to reach a higher standard, not lower the standard to make everyone feel better about themselves. Maybe that's why I don't go to church, I don't want to change?
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    The Pope's gunman mourns his death
    A great irony. Demonstration of the Pontiff's strength of will and faith (he not only forgave the man, but came to know him well and teach him a better way)

    http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/sto...19990314NYP136

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    The Pope's gunman mourns his death
    A great irony. Demonstration of the Pontiff's strength of will and faith (he not only forgave the man, but came to know him well and teach him a better way)
    You see it isn't so much irony as unusual greatness. This is why I say John Paul II was a Great Pope. Along with a few others, such as Gandhi, these people, now they were MEN.


    Quote Originally Posted by LilSweetVixen
    Exactly. Where's the Christian philosophy in the Church? It has gradually become more and more elitist and bureacratic....
    I dont think you can say "it has gradually become." The Church became that way rather rapidly, starting within a few decades of its founding. If anything it has become more accessible in the last few decades. That said... John Paul II has appointed enough people who believe as he did that it will not be changing rapidly for decades.

    Hard to say which is right, but since now birth control is allied with avoiding deadly diseases, this posture may have the greaterst probability of changing. Hard to justify the maximum propagation of species when one third of sub-Saharan Africans have HIV due to not using a birth control method they ban.

    Glad I am not associated with any church. I try to be a realist, and religion leads many people into an unrealistic world.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    He condoned pederasty.
    That's a bold statement.

    While there are masses of people here in the Boston-area that want to hang Cardinal Law by his ballbag from a lamppost in Southie, you can't lay all that at the feet of JPII. I won't deny that the Pope could have fed some bishops and cardinals to the wolves over the sex abuse scandals, but battleships don't turn on dimes. The RCC is a big friggin' battleship.

    And as for negating his part in the anti-communist trinity (Reagan, Thatcher and JPII) and its effects, 500 million people in Eastern Europe know differently.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Featured Member Muyaha's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    And as for negating his part in the anti-communist trinity (Reagan, Thatcher and JPII) and its effects, 500 million people in Eastern Europe know differently.
    I keep hearing this on the nightly news. I'm sorry but I doubt his part in "bring down communism" as the news is now saying.

    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them.

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    ^ Tell that to the Poles.

    Stalin once asked Churchill, "The Pope? How many divisions does he have?"

    JPII made Solidarity a force to be reckoned with...and he didn't need any divisions to bring down the communist regime there.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Featured Member Muyaha's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Well there's still communism, just a little different than now the Stalin's Russia was, but it still exists. So making a blanket statement such as "the pope brought down communism" is a little much especially since he (the pope) apparently had a lot of contact and visit in Cuba which is a dictorship/communist.
    Last edited by Muyaha; 04-04-2005 at 07:23 PM.

    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them.

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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Being a "reformed" Catholic myself, I didn't always agree with JPII's positions on church doctrine, but growing up in that environment, I never really expected change to come about. Whether I agreed with him or not, it was hard not to respect how he stuck to his guns.

    Yeah, he opposed abortion rights and euthanasia, but he also opposed war and capital punishment. He IMHO truly belived in the sanctity of all life, regardless of the politics involved.

    Kind of strange, but with his passing, I fondly recall the Sunday afternoon when I was five, sitting at my grandmother's house, watching some sports on CBS when they broke in with news that Pope Paul VI had passed away. Having held the position for 26 years, I have such a burned in image of JPII as being the Pontiff, its going to be very hard picturing someone else there.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish
    Being a "reformed" Catholic myself...
    What's a reformed Catholic?
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    ^ Catholics that don't want the Catholic church to be Catholic anymore.

    (Full disclosure, CO is nominally Catholic)
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Featured Member Muyaha's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Catholics who do not accept the Pope's jurisdiction or certain doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. Some are called Protestant or Reformed Catholics. Among them are members of the Church of Ireland and the other Churches of the Anglican Communion.

    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    ^ Catholics that don't want the Catholic church to be Catholic anymore.
    Okay, thanks. The only thing that came to mind was people that say that they are, "reformed alcholics". I guess it is sort of the same thing huh? You used to be catholic but you got over it?
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    God/dess NinaDaisy's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    ^ Tell that to the Poles.

    Stalin once asked Churchill, "The Pope? How many divisions does he have?"

    JPII made Solidarity a force to be reckoned with...and he didn't need any divisions to bring down the communist regime there.
    Gee, and I always thought it was Lech Walensa (sp?). I guess he'll just have to settle for Best Supporting Dissident.

    He might not have told the priests to assfuck little boys, but there was a lot more he could have done about it. The Church just practiced a lot of plausible deniability and hoped it would go away. Their handling of the situation was abhorrent.
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

    Ernest Hemingway on writer, aviation pioneer and horse trainer Beryl Markham


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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    IT' SAD. after 2,000 years - millions if no billion of dedicated followers doing good work, and more than 20 years of AMAZING leadership by JP2...the pedophilia thing is all people think when you say Catholic. Wrong and sad,

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Yeah, Lech was important, but he knew where to place the credit.

    No argument here about the handling of the sex abuse scandal--the Vatican wasn't paying nearly enough attention and it continues to cost them.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: RIP Pope John Paul II

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    ^ Catholics that don't want the Catholic church to be Catholic anymore.
    Of course most Catholics in the U.S. never had to deal with stuff like the following going on in their diocese (for the record, I had zero involvement with any of the forbidden organizatons):

    http://www.catholic.net/us_catholic_...rticle_id=2879
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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