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Thread: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

  1. #26
    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    QUESTION: do you believe it is only moneyand short term gain that matters, or the BALANCE of economy, ecology and lifestyle
    I believe that human beings are born with an innate desire to improve their own lives and the lives of people close to them. I believe that an unfettered free market is the best method of enhancing, amplifying and advancing that desire. I believe that such a desire for self-improvement utlimately results in not just benefits for the individual, but for her family, community, and society at large. I do not believe that people are inherrently stupid, nor do I believe that people need a bunch of well-intentioned neo-environmentalists telling them how they should believe, act, or think. The vast majority of people are quite capable of putting their own long-term interests in proper perspective. While variables exists, this means that people will not elevate their own short-term gain to a place of prominence that it does not deserve in their own value system. As long as their value system does not endanger my own well-being, I choose not to judge their system or to attempt to change it. Our society's adherence to capitalist ideas have made ours the richest in the history of the world. However, we owe no one an apology for that fact, nor should we be ashamed of it. I personally however, feel that as some of the most prosperous people on the face of the earth, we should attempt, where pratical, to encourage, not force, not demand, the peoples of the world to follow our example so that they too can enjoy all that this wonderful world has to offer.

    Yes....your solution is SO GOOD to her, its absolutely altruistic.
    Altruism hasn't got a damn thing to do with it. The United States is the leading exporter in the world. If her standard of living rises substantially, perhaps she will buy some of our products.

    My solution would still provide the factory, since wages in her country woud be lower than many others (but still living wage) AND it would protect her from the problems our societh had (and has) related to non sustainable development.
    No, your "solution" would chase the factory somewhere else.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    The third world's major problem is a lack of property rights. Lot of capital is locked up because of the shakey situation of property.

    I would say a lot of it is imperialism. The problem is you have to separate the government from the people when you talk about Country X. The political class might want whatever the us is "offering" but that doesn't mean it is good for the people.

    The costs of enviromental preservation should like on those who want to do the preserving. If you want to save a forest or whatever, go out and buy it. THen you can preserve it for forevermore.

    Don't force the rest of us to pick up the tab for your aesthetics.

    "give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, poison his river and he won't eat again"
    Cute. Must be in the CIA handbook.

    Natural resoruces are not a requirement for success. Look at Hong kong, Japan, and many of the other asian tigers. Hardly any natural resources at all. In addition, it takes development and technology to turn something into a resource to begin with. Oil has been known about for thousands of years, but for most of human existance it was simply a disgusting black ooze that everybody hated. Now it's black gold.

    When talking about options to things, never leave out the price system. At present it simply isn't economically viable to pay much attention to alternative energy systems because there is no real economic incentive for it(let us leave aside the cartelization of energy and such things for now). Once the price of oil goes up dramatically, or whatever, new power systems will pop up to take advantage and try to undercut oil.

    Dams are pretty hazardous to the enviroment.

    You preach the value of "balance" but in practice it's Old-School-Big-Brother-Know's-Best-Environmental-Extremism wrapped in warm fuzzy words like "sustainability".
    Mmm sure is.

    As mentioned above, choices must always be made, but the question is, WHO will make such choices? Will it be property owners and energy suppliers making choices based upon consumer demand, available resources and technologies, and using the price system as a good for calculation? Or will it be bureaucrats and enviromental weenies who want to force everybody else to pick up the tab for their crusades. I favor the former option myself.

    And until I see the enviromentalism movement apologize for the ddt ban genocide, they are dead in my eyes. Not even Mao, Hitler, and Stalin can take credit for such large mass murder

  3. #28
    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    The third world's major problem is a lack of property rights. Lot of capital is locked up because of the shakey situation of property.
    Not just the third world. I've noticed that the lumber companies don't let their forests burn to the ground. It's the forests that belong to "the people" in national parks and such that do.

    The costs of enviromental preservation should like on those who want to do the preserving. If you want to save a forest or whatever, go out and buy it. THen you can preserve it for forevermore.

    Don't force the rest of us to pick up the tab for your aesthetics.
    But it's so much cheaper to steal the land through the Endangered Species Act

    Natural resoruces are not a requirement for success. Look at Hong kong, Japan, and many of the other asian tigers. Hardly any natural resources at all. In addition, it takes development and technology to turn something into a resource to begin with. Oil has been known about for thousands of years, but for most of human existance it was simply a disgusting black ooze that everybody hated. Now it's black gold.
    No, it does take one natural resource, the human mind, unburdened by over-regulation.

    And until I see the enviromentalism movement apologize for the ddt ban genocide, they are dead in my eyes. Not even Mao, Hitler, and Stalin can take credit for such large mass murder
    But Sh0t, we feel so good about ourselves for having "done something" the deaths due to malaria are a small price to pay.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

  4. #29
    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    [b You offered the propane powered refrigerator, the stream-sized generator, and the fuel cell, as alternatives to a hydro-electric damn.
    if you look to the original reference to propane fridges and fuel cells (my 2nd post or so) were "in the meantime" and "home sized" NOT as replacements for the hydro plant.


    Funny how you can offer to donate your services to find sustainable solutions for the poor third-world country and at the same time claim you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
    I'm not an electrical engineer. neither are you

    You keep claiming how obvious sustainable development is, if only someone as smart as you would educate the stupid people of the world, you keep screaming "YOU CAN ACHIEVE THE SAME RESULT SEVERAL WAYS". Let's hear just one way.
    Simple. Work with a company experienced in sustainable development and sustainable power generation, have an independent company examine the region and block off the most sensitive areas (working with community leaders) and identify the best and "negotiable" regions for development..and what belongs there (wind farm, factory, etc.) decide what you want to start with (power seems easy and obvious) and look at the options. most likely, put a hydro (or other technology, if apropriate) plant in if topography works...placing it to cause the least loss of natural capital...and still generate the needed return. Install several smaller plants to make distribution easier and reduce damage..if that's appropriate. Re-examine the goals of the development, and move from there

    Involving Environmental (independent geographic/habitat info), economic (business investors) and lifestyle (educated and traditional locals...with understanding of the history and the goals of a community) creates a balanced plan. Done.

  5. #30
    Veteran Member myssi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    Energy projects, environmental protection issues aside...
    There are other ways that do-gooders can end up oppressing the 3rd world with misplaced agendas. For example, the formula vs. breast-feeding debate has flaired up again. Africans and other third worlders should be able to choose, and not to be scared or shamed into breast-feeding. Radicals and their supporters at the WHO (World Health Org.), however, want to keep third world women, in effect, barefoot, denying them the choice, as they modernize, of a healthy, convenient product. Of course, breast feeding is best, but for a poor third worlder who may not have the health bottle-feeding ought to be an option. An economic reason is that as third world women become 'liberated' and enter the work force, bottle feeding may allow time-saving that breast feeding doesn't. WHO is anti-formula and anti-Nestle (the largest manufacturer) but not pro-working third world women because it suits their anti-capitalist bias. They'd rather keep poor countries poor and under-developed countries under-developed.

  6. #31
    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    Myssi, that's a very balanced approach....give them the information on all options (in a way they understand, not too much jargon and in THEIR language and dialect) and resources (if you're giving any resources) for both solutions. Guidance, not enforcement.

    Unless (not relating to breast feeding but pollution and the other issues of this thread) the end result is connected to benefits for developed nations (investments, imports)...then the developed nations can choose to make requirements of projects its people make overseas...as I've suggested.

  7. #32
    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by myssi
    Africans and other WHO is anti-formula and anti-Nestle (the largest manufacturer) but not pro-working third world women because it suits their anti-capitalist bias. They'd rather keep poor countries poor and under-developed countries under-developed.
    But Myssi, if the problem of poverty was ever solved, the bureaucrats in the poverty-fighting agencies would have get out and get new jobs.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

  8. #33
    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    They'd rather keep poor countries poor and under-developed countries under-developed.
    And, ironically, it is endemic poverty and the resulting environmental degradation associated with poverty trends (habitat destruction, famine, civil war, skyrocketing birth rates, et al) that threatens any notion of sustainability. It's not incumbent upon the developed world to engage in sustainable practices of economic development; it's our responsibility to make possible the development of poor nations via the free market and their own self-determination.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

  9. #34
    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    It's not incumbent upon the developed world to engage in sustainable practices of economic development; it's our responsibility to make possible the development of poor nations via the free market and their own self-determination.
    boldIt's our RESPONSIBILITY to save them from what, exactly? The slow development progress we went through....and to jump start them to our version of economic prosperity?

    We have that responsibility, to give them the "benefit" of our economic "free market" (if it only were) but no responsibility to give them the benefit of our non-economic knowledge (sustainability)?

    That makes no sense...

    besides which:

    Somehow....you're assuming that sustainable development IS NOT free market...

  10. #35
    God/dess montythegeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sustainable development = Sustained poverty

    Propane is a hydrocarbon like gasoline and natyral gas. It is a vey clean burning fuel producing little pollution in use. It is not absolutely clean as it is a product of refining. Propane is delivered in vehicles which use propane as the fuel to deliver the product. If you pass a propane delivery vehicle it is using propane to propel it. You can even run a car on propane. I have been in one since my dad worked for a local propane distributor. (ps they pay the same highway use tax as gasoline)

    The diference between propane and natural gas is the temperature and pressure needed to liquify it. For that reason it is a premium fuel, like charcoal is a premium form of wood fuel.

    You can run a compressor on propane, just as you can natural gas. Use of propane is also intensive in use of other materials which are dirty in manufacture. A propane tank is 6-8 times as thick as a gasoline tank so it uses more steel, and it also needs more extensive valves than other fuels.

    Propane is a very convenient way to provide power with 1930's technology. It is very mobile, but moves most efficiently in bulk on rail lines. It is however expensive compared to other hyrdocarbons.

    http://www.npga.org/files/public/Fac...ut_Propane.pdf

    PS as a fair disclosure I used to work summers for a propane company in high school and was fed and clothed by money my dad made in the business in the 1950s - 70s.

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