Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

  1. #1
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    but also



    why do I get the feeling that national politics lately resembles the late 1850's ?

  2. #2
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    8,031
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 143 Times in 42 Posts

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    Hee, I think that's overstating it a little. I'm pretty sure no one is going to secede over gay marriage (though I really really hope they drop the ridiculous idea of amending the damn Constitution over it). Though that would be really funny. CA could secede . . .

    Honestly, and this might be because I lived in a blue city in a red state, but I really see this as more of a rural/urban divide. CA and NY are blue, and the major cities in Texas are close to it (well, at least Austin is for sure and Dallas is close and elected a gay Latina sherriff). Now, right now I live in a crimson city in a barely red state--in Ohio there is just a huge huge variance in political leanings depending on what city or area of the state you're in. It's pretty amazing. And Ohio does have the judge who refused to allow a girlfriend to bring domestic abuse charges against her boyfriend because he said the gay marriage ban's language prohibited it.

    Anyhow, when it comes down to it, do you think there are gay couples in Kansas beating down the doors trying to get married? No. Why? Because they had the sense to get the hell out of there.

  3. #3
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    Susan I'm in just the opposite situation, living in a Red county in an overwhelmingly Blue state.

    I also agree with your point about Kansas gay couples i.e. when they see the cards being stacked against them the smart thing to do is 'vote with their feet'. I suspect that this point also applies to other groups who find the local cards being stacked against them i.e. relatively high income Blue state taxpayers, Red state 'working poor'/welfare recipients etc. Thus the polarization continues to deepen as modern day migration trends quitely affect the underlying makeup of each state's registered voters.

    I also agree with you that cities tend to lean more towards the Blue than the Red. This is understandable since the vast majority of low income subsidized housing is located in cities which tends to attract the 'working poor'/welfare recipients, and also because the vast majority of sizeable gov't agencies (i.e. civil service/gov't contractor jobs) are located in cities. Also, the majority of large professional businesses (i.e. legal firms, foundations, banks and investment houses) are located in big cities as well, which tends to retain the legal residences and registered votes of the uber-rich (despite the fact that they may also have 'vacation homes' in the country).

    Oh, and I forgot to mention that virtually all of the mainstream media outlets are located in big cities, which consistently seem to report from a Blue perspective and encourage local voters to support Blue positions.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-06-2005 at 03:39 AM.

  4. #4
    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,004
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    The continuation of "red state blue state" concept IS THE PROBEM..POLARIZING our conversations. Same thing with sterotypes "liberals are" and "conservatives are"\

    State what you believe, back it up and maybe someone will listen to you. Start out attacking their beliefs and you get no where

    Concensus, Balance...why is that so hard?

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Lurker's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    209
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    Melonie, vis a vis "rich taxpayer flight"--I'm quite sure that the average income in "Blue" states is dramatically higher than it is in "Red" states.

    I agree that this focus on the country's divisions doesn't really benefit the political process...It turns it into a football game. People get interested in their side "winning" rather than the actual results of that victory. Witness how our President's attempt to reform Social Security is falling flat...He stated shortly after his victory that he was going to "spend political capital" that he thought he had won. But the reality is that the average US citizen was voting based on images and innuendo, not policy. The irony for me personally is that I support a lot of what the Republican party purports to stand for, but they can't actually pass much that aligns with those beliefs because it doesn't play well in Peoria...So they end up bashing minorities and cutting sweetheart deals for their industry friends, which are easy outs.
    Last edited by Lurker; 04-06-2005 at 09:04 AM. Reason: First draft contained nonsensical sentence.
    "All this time you were pretending
    So much for my happy ending."
    --Avril Lavigne

  6. #6
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    Melonie, vis a vis "rich taxpayer flight"--I'm quite sure that the average income in "Blue" states is dramatically higher than it is in "Red" states
    Actually, if you're talking about net 'after tax' income, plus factored cost of living, and you're talking about a 'middle class' wage earner in a non-professional industry, it's arguable that the Red states are already in the lead.

    In regard to polarization, that was exactly the point that I was trying to make. IMHO the point has now been reached where the basic differences in economic/social philosophies and policies are no longer reconcileable. Blue states are not going to move further towards Red economic/social policies any more than Red states are going to move further towards Blue economic/social policies. As such, on matters of national import, essentially nothing is going to get accomplished (or at least not before the 2006 election).

  7. #7
    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    123 Tornado Alley Way, Hooterville USA
    Posts
    6,322
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 36 Times in 30 Posts

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward
    Anyhow, when it comes down to it, do you think there are gay couples in Kansas beating down the doors trying to get married? No. Why? Because they had the sense to get the hell out of there.
    I think a lot of gay people would bypass on marriage just to live in a tightly wound community where they can be around other gay/lesbian people. The reputations of gay friendly enclaves like SF and NYC are nothing new. One wonders with that in mind why gays living in red states haven't moved to those places already.

    Of course, even in the reddest of red states, state university towns (Austin, Norman OK, Lawrence KS) are often a more convienent oasis for gay people than moving to the coasts. I'm not sure if having a few states where they could get civil union recognition would make gays consider to relocate. Time will tell I guess.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Lurker's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    209
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    Melonie--

    On the income thing, I think you've changed your footing a bit. First you suggested that rich people in high-tax states might leave for greener pastures. Your second post suggests that a typical worker in Omaha may have a better standard of living than one in Brooklyn (for example). The second point I don't take issue with, though I don't know that it's true...It's certainly believable (and probably arguable either way). But it's not the same thing. The people leaving Silicon Valley aren't the rich dot-commers and techies who've decided to move to low-tax Montana (though there is a bit of Californian flight to Nevada from what I understand), they're people who lost their jobs.

    As far as politics/political gridlock--what worries me is that we've reached the point now where it's clear that any painful decision can't be undertaken and can't be pitched to the public. Entitlements need to be reformed at some point, the Republicans are the party who has the platform and desire to reform them, and they dominate the federal government. If Republican congressmen and senators aren't going to vote their party loyalty/platform NOW on a very tame SS reform bill, when will they? I can't see how the 2006 election will help resolve things--it's not like it's the Dems who are really causing the problem here (except insofar as they're making political hay at an opportune time). It's Republicans who won't toe the party line to vote for an unpopular bill.

    It makes me wish we had a parliamentary democracy, or at least some system where a new broom could really sweep clean. Margaret Thatcher could never be duplicated in this country.
    "All this time you were pretending
    So much for my happy ending."
    --Avril Lavigne

  9. #9
    Jay Zeno
    Guest

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    Stopping in for a moment.

    I'm happily in what is termed here a purple state. And that's how I see the country, generally as varying shades of purple. Some are at the blue end of the spectrum, some red.

  10. #10
    God/dess
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,210
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    The idea of the government being in marriage to begin with is the problem. A holdover from the slave days in order to prevent interracial marriages(in our relatively modern experience).

    The red versus blue thing is a great scam. It's really worked to keep the proles blind.

    There is no ss reform proposed. The only reform would be abolishment.

  11. #11
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    On the income thing, I think you've changed your footing a bit. First you suggested that rich people in high-tax states might leave for greener pastures. Your second post suggests that a typical worker in Omaha may have a better standard of living than one in Brooklyn (for example). The second point I don't take issue with, though I don't know that it's true...It's certainly believable (and probably arguable either way). But it's not the same thing.
    Not at all. I was merely making the double whammy point that the higher pre-tax incomes of 'middle class' blue state residents provides a strong incentive to 'vote with their feet' for the much lower state and local tax rates in a red state, while the lower cost of living available in red states provides additional incentive (or neutralizes the effect of taking say a 10%-20% pre-tax pay 'cut' as a result of a relocation). I agree that I was talking about 'middle class' people who choose to quit jobs in blue states to relocate to red states, or people who don't have to quit their job but instead commute from across the state line (i.e. California/Nevada). The blue state people of your example have seen their blue state jobs evaporate, thus often they have little choice but to relocate to red states to find available jobs after their unemployment benefits run out.

    I can't see how the 2006 election will help resolve things--it's not like it's the Dems who are really causing the problem here (except insofar as they're making political hay at an opportune time). It's Republicans who won't toe the party line to vote for an unpopular bill.
    I would alternately conclude that it is the 45 vote senate minority, and the remaining power of the mainstream media, which contribute to the deadlock and/or republican 'fear factor' rather than any particular lack of conviction on the part of republican senators and congressmen. After all, what's the point of opening up yourself to public mudslinging on the part of the media which may haunt your re-election campaign if there's zero chance that a particular senate bill will be able to avoid being filibustered to death. Tom DeLay has no choice but to do it, but most other republican lawmakers are content to bide their time. Two more years of 'alternative media' evolution and 'mainstream media' expose's, combined with a 60 vote senate majority, would go a very long way to breaking the current deadlock.

  12. #12
    Veteran Member Lurker's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    209
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    I guess we'll see the courage of the Republican lawmakers once they've squeezed the Democrats out of any tiny vestige of congressional power AND when Fox sets the standard for our national media, then?

    That's quite brave of them.

    I'm glad FDR (or, for that matter, Ronald Reagan) didn't have the stones that our Republican congressmen do. I exclude (and applaud) GWB on this issue.
    "All this time you were pretending
    So much for my happy ending."
    --Avril Lavigne

  13. #13
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    8,031
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 143 Times in 42 Posts

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    I don't think the rich folk are going to be moving anytime soon, for the simple fact that while you might be able to avoid a state income tax and lower your living costs in a less urban area, you're just not going to be able to make the same amount of money you can in New York, SF, or LA. Now, for some people the tradeoff is well worth it; Austin is a great example of a huge influx of Californians.

    I disagree with Mel on the point about the cities leaning towards blueness because of the poor and the uberrich. I think--and here comes some elitism, sorry--it's because that's where you're going to find a higher level of education (and probably, I will say, a lower level of weekly churchgoing).

  14. #14
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    Again, I never said that the uber-rich would be moving out of Blue states. When you talk about lawyers, accountants, bankers, doctors, arts and entertainment people etc. they would indeed sacrifice a great deal of income potential in doing so. After all, as long as Blue economic policies allow for tax loopholes, the uber-rich are the people who can afford the legal and accounting overhead plus the high buy-ins to take advantage of those loopholes. However, when you talk about engineers, technicians, managers i.e. ' middle class' people, it's quite a different story. Employment opportunities in the southern Red states may actually pay more, and their salaries are taxed big time if they stay in Northern Blue states.

    I also agree with you about the relative levels of 'churchgoing' in Blue states vs Red states. However, it's arguable that this issue is coincidental with 'conservative' economic/social outlooks rather than a primary factor in creating 'conservative' economic/social outlooks. As proof of this I would offer up El Paso TX, which now consists of more white collar 'yankees' than 'bible belters' thanks to a massive influx of Maquila related manufacturing over the past 10 years.

    I guess we'll see the courage of the Republican lawmakers once they've squeezed the Democrats out of any tiny vestige of congressional power AND when Fox sets the standard for our national media, then?
    Yes I imagine you will !

  15. #15
    God/dess
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,210
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Red vs. Blue states continue to widen gap ...

    FDR was is tied for first place as our worst president in my view(shared with lincoln). Reagan is in hell with the rest of em.

    Why do we use the term tax "loophole"?
    Why is it assumed those people owe the government that money.

    The idea there is some great struggle going on between Red forces and Blue forces is absurd. Both major political factions agree on high taxes; both factions agree on distributing the stolen loot to their croonies. Republicans raises taxes just as much as democratics do, if not more so, they just try to avoid calling it raising taxes. "Closing loopholes" is a code-word for...raising taxes. More government spending(which republicans accelerate FASTER than democrats at the national level) means...taxes are going to rise. The government has to get paid for somehow. Borrowing just means higher future taxes and/or inflation which is a tax like any other.



Similar Threads

  1. Blue America vs Red America
    By Miss_Luscious in forum Member Boards
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 10-28-2008, 08:17 AM
  2. Happy birthday red red red!
    By scarlett_vancouver in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 11-25-2006, 02:34 PM
  3. Interesting Stats on Red vs Blue voters
    By Melonie in forum Political Poo
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-24-2005, 01:40 PM
  4. The REAL Red State/Blue State Map
    By doc-catfish in forum Political Poo
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-11-2004, 02:13 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •