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Thread: What contact is legal?

  1. #1
    Featured Member Lizette's Avatar
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    Default What contact is legal?

    I have no idea how much I can touch the customer or how much the customers can touch me. A few days ago, I learned I was engaging in prostitution for sitting -- SITTING! -- on a customer's lap.

    The managers don't know. The dancers don't know. I read the laws but they don't make sense to me. I need someone to spell out in plain English what's legal and what's not.

    Who can I turn to? Is there a site?

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    Veteran Member Blueyez's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    There are several things that go into determining what is and what isn't legal/acceptable.

    1. State & local laws
    2. Club Rules
    3. The local fuzz & DA's interpretation of # 1

    Number 3 is a moving target - just because one cop doesn't bust you for doing something doesn't mean the next one won't. And, of course, if the DA is up for re-election, the laws actually get enforced more stringently.

    In other words, no, there is no single source. In all reality, they make it up as they go (the local authorities), and until you get into a courtroom, you still won't know 100% what is and isn't legal! And the next judge may disagree with the first one.

    Good luck!
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    God/dess PaigeDWinter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    This varies depending on state, township, etc. I remember NY having a very specific law. Any contact for money is prostitution. Pay me for a handshake and that's considered illegal. But no one pushed it.

    I hear tell that this is a common law, but also commonly ignored.

    You'd really have to ask around. There are people who know... usually cops and/or strip club owners/managers.
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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    I'm no authority on the topic, but I have heard that there are US states in which prostitution is defined as "providing any service intended to be sexually arousing in return for monetary or other compensation" or similar words to that effect. I think that Texas may be one such state. Obsviously such a broad and all encompassing definition, if interpreted literally, would make stripping in general a form of prostitution, or even belly dancing or singing a sexy/seductive song on stage or... My impression is that such a definition is adopted by the legislature 1) to make sure that it includes all the possible odd fetish services and such that escorts provide without having to try to spell them each out in detail and 2) with the assumption that the cops, DAs and courts will apply them with reasonably common sense (i.e., not too literally).

    In such places, what is legal and what isn't comes down basically to Blueyez's pint #3.

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    Featured Member Lizette's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Air dancing ain't so bad. I guess I'll switch to that. It was kinda fun touching a guys nipples though. *shrugs*

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueyez
    3. The local fuzz & DA's interpretation...just because one cop doesn't bust you for doing something doesn't mean the next one won't. And, of course, if the DA is up for re-election, the laws actually get enforced more stringently.
    This is the bottom line.

    The vast majority of lap-dancing is illegal according to the books in most locations,as far as I can tell. Which of course does nothing to curtail more advanced sexual activity, or improve the working conditions of the typical dancer in the U.S. of A. What it does is remove dancers further and further from the ordinary legal recourse available to employees/contractors, and encourage the ostracism that comes with the job.
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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    First of all, the obvious answer is, that if you want legal advice, hire a lawyer. However, asking a lawyer what you can do during a lap dance without breaking the law is sort of like asking an accountant how many deductions you can claim on your taxes without being audited. His answer is always going to be very cautious.

    I'm no lawyer but since you didn't post this on an lawyer's message board, here's my

    I think Ww is right about the prostitution charge. From what I've heard, I think in practice it's only used in strip clubs to prohibit particularly raunchy stage shows.

    I think Dj is right about lap dances being technically illegal in most places. I don't think it's necessarily enforced that much though. Texas is known for its high-mileage clubs yet I think the entire state has a 3 ft. rule.

    The plain truth is that sticking to the exact letter of the law might have a big impact on your earnings. What you really need to know is the answer to Blueyez's Number 3: "The local fuzz & DA's interpretation of..." State & local laws. Has the club you are working at been busted lately? If so, what for? If the club is pretty clean and you are giving dances more or less like the majority of the girls then you are probably ok. Understand though, that like Blueyez said, the situation can change. A more important question you might want to ask is what happens if you get busted. In some places you basically get the same thing as a parking ticket, in other places you are charged with a sex crime. There's a big difference and the difference would definitely help you decide if its worth it or not.
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    God/dess Bunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    However, asking a lawyer what you can do during a lap dance without breaking the law is sort of like asking an accountant how many deductions you can claim on your taxes without being audited

    but remember there is attorney/client privilege and whatever is said between you and them they can't tell a soul so you could find an attorney and ask for advice. As far as Florida, I know there is some six-foot ordinance but it's not followed. I'm not sure what the state of things are as far as what the chances of getting in trouble for this are. I know a ton of criminal attorneys and if I can ever bring it up without being too obvious why I might be asking I'll let you know what I'm told though I don't think you live in Florida so I dont' know how much good it would do you.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    DJ and Destiny are on the right track here. In the vast majority of locations, typical levels of lap dance contact which have been going on in clubs 100 times a night, every night, for the past several years, may in fact be illegal but just never prosecuted. In regard to risk factors, it's actually much more important to be aware of the 'tension levels' between a particular club and the local politicians and cops than it is to try and avoid any activities which might result in a bust.

    Why ? Because when you get right down to it, if an undercover cop says you are guilty you have no way to prove you are innocent short of an all-encompassing video surveillance tape from the club showing everything you did AND DIDN'T DO immediately prior to a bust. Short of such evidence of your innocence (which never actually exists) if an undercover cop decides to bust you, ultimately it will come down to a jury of housewives, retirees and civil servants listening to a fine upstanding member of the local law enforcement community tell them what a slut you are, versus you yourself trying to tell them that exotic dancing doesn't really involve the sex and drugs Hollywood Image that every movie, newspaper story and TV show tells them that it does.

    Don't believe that this can't happen to you because it can ... even if you didn't do anything but sit on a customer's lap. And in some jurisdictions you don't even need to do that. For example, I know of two Texas dancers who were up on stage together in a large club. Customers were sitting stageside at the rail. One dancer "inadvertently" touched the other dancer's breast, while at the same time a customer laid down a tip. An undercover cop busted both dancers on the spot for prostitution. Later in court the charge stuck, because the dancers had committed 'sexual contact' i.e. one dancer touched the other dancer's breast, while 'receiving payment' for that sexual contact i.e. the customer tip money. Under Texas law at least there is absolutely no requirement that a connection exist between the persons committing the 'sexual contact' in exchange for money and the person paying the money !

    As far as legal info, you can probably find the state prostitution laws and state liquor authority laws which apply to your particular club by doing internet searches. However, if any city/county ordinances exist in addition to the state laws, you'll usually have to seek copies in person at city hall or county office. But even if you have the text of these laws in front of you, there is a huge amount of leeway in regard to the manner in which an overzealous DA, cops with a political axe to grind, or a conservative judge can apply them. And then of course there is my original point that the undercover cop can simply lie about what you were actually doing and bust you anyhow, leaving you in a 'word of a stripper against the word of a cop' situation in court which the dancer will lose every single time unless she has some form of irrefutable hard evidence to prove her innocence (which essentially never exists) !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-09-2005 at 10:30 AM.

  10. #10
    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Bunny: I agree, finding a lawyer with a lot of experience in the field would be ideal. What I meant was that most lawyers are going to be very cautious in giving advice. Like Liz said, most of these laws are written very vaguely. If you were to ask a lawyer, "can I let a customer touch the outside of my thighs?", you might get a lawyerly answer like, "well, that might be okay, but it would be better not to, I'd advise you not to", which really doesn't help much. Plus if your state has distance rule, the lawyer is going to tell you to follow it, period. But if every other girl in the club is giving lap dances, you're not going to make much obeying the letter of the law. I'm guessing most big cities have at least one lawyer that sort of specializes in this sort of thing, a short conversation with him on what the local environment is like could be worth it.
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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    I'm guessing most big cities have at least one lawyer that sort of specializes in this sort of thing, a short conversation with him on what the local environment is like could be worth it.
    While we're on this subject, dancers also have to be careful to not wind up on the losing end of a 'conflict of interest' situation i.e. the lawyer who specializes in adult entertainment law is also the lawyer who represents the clubowner ! I know of more than one case where the club's attorney has handed 'plea bargain' dancer guilty pleas to the DA on a silver platter in exchange for getting his big money client the clubowner totally off the hook i.e. charges not made or dropped in regard to the club. Remember that even though accepting a 'plea bargain' may get you released on the spot and get your fine paid for by the club, that you're still pleading guilty to a sexually related misdemeanor charge which may stay on your criminal record forever.

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    Veteran Member Hello~Kitty's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Never trust any club to tell you the rules or local laws. Cover your butt and find out for yourself !

    Call local city government and ask where to find the laws pertaining to adult establishments and entertainment. If the laws are too confusing, seek out legal advice to clearly explain.

    It is ALWAYS better to be safe than sorry !
    Example of discrimination (Imho):

    the only prudent way to treat Islamics in the US and western europe today is along the same vein as Russians and Eastern Europeans were treated during the 'cold war' days - with some degree of suspicion warranted until proven otherwise !

    http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44590




  13. #13
    242_fair
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    I will get you the statute from a proper official source if you tell my your state and county (thats COUNTY, not country).

    I will only do this for Lizette because I am too busy at school and it takes a while. Please don't everyone else ask me.

    Lizette, you can PM me.

    Edited to add:

    Like here, people in your area probabally break the code on a nightly basis, this happens everywhere, but at least I can tell you what it is.

    I can also give you some tips on being careful based on case law from other girls in your area who got charged and went to court. i.e. anybody who fights their charges has the circumstances of the arrest read into the record, so I can check records and see what the usual set-up is by LE to bust girls in your juristiction.
    Last edited by 242_fair; 04-09-2005 at 12:45 PM.

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    God/dess Bunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    The worst part about the whole thing for me if I got arrested for ever giving a lap dance is that people would start talking and before I know it all these people I know would know and wouldn't that be fun! I guess that's part of my fear of dancing is everyone I know from my day job finding out but I might get to the point where I say screw it because the older I get the less I really care what people think of me.

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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    In the vast majority of locations, typical levels of lap dance contact which have been going on in clubs 100 times a night, every night, for the past several years, may in fact be illegal but just never prosecuted. In regard to risk factors, it's actually much more important to be aware of the 'tension levels' between a particular club and the local politicians and cops than it is to try and avoid any activities which might result in a bust.

    ~
    Mel is 100% correct.

    In Connecticut, I saw several friends get arrested for "prostitution" during a club raid, despite the fact that we practically did air dances

    This club was hardly the raciest in the state; it was surveilled and raided only because it was located directly across the street from a Roman-Catholic church, and the priest had pretty much devoted his life to getting it shut down. His objections resonated throughout the community and led to numerous hearings, political pressure, and eventually the passage of a local "nuisance abatement" law that would finally give the local politicians the power to shut it down for good.

    The Connecticut state statute defined prostitution as "sexual conduct, with intent to arouse, in exchange for money," or something to that effect. Wwanderer is probably correct in his assertion that this type of definition is meant to include fetish services rather than table dances, but the authorities were able to use the broad definition to make the arrests that were necessary to close the club permanently under the newly-passed local nuisance abatement ordinance. They raided the club on the VERY DAY that the new ordinance went into effect.

    All I can say is, Be careful! If you're really worried, don't work at a club that is under fire from local politicians, clergy, or citizen's groups. It was pretty much a crapshoot as to who among the dancers got arrested and who did not (I'm assuming that everyone who did a TD for an undercover cop was put on the arrest list.) I suppose you could ask everyone you dance for if they're a cop (they have to answer honestly or it's entrapment, right?), but I guess that could be kind of a mood-killer

    btw, most of the dancers who were arrested had no previous record, so they were able to take AR (Accelerated Rehabilitation), which, if I remember correctly, allowed them to avoid any kind of real conviction or criminal record.....does anyone know more about this?

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    God/dess Bunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Yeah. that is totally NOT true. They can lie to you all they want.

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    ...asking a lawyer what you can do during a lap dance without breaking the law is sort of like asking an accountant how many deductions you can claim on your taxes without being audited.
    This is great. As is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    ...when you get right down to it, if an undercover cop says you are guilty you have no way to prove you are innocent short of an all-encompassing video surveillance tape from the club showing everything you did AND DIDN'T DO immediately prior to a bust. Short of such evidence of your innocence (which never actually exists) if an undercover cop decides to bust you, ultimately it will come down to a jury of housewives, retirees and civil servants listening to a fine upstanding member of the local law enforcement community tell them what a slut you are...
    ~
    Police will always win in court when contending with people of 'questionable moral integrity', such as those of us employed in the adult entertainment business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    ...If you're really worried, don't work at a club that is under fire from local politicians, clergy, or citizen's groups. It was pretty much a crapshoot as to who among the dancers got arrested and who did not...
    ~
    Having been arrested by a Jesus Freak Supercop during FantasyFest (the world's largest erotic festival) for wearing a costume, I can testify that it is quite possible to be arrested for doing something relatively innocuous around the wrong representatives of the law. If they are on a mission to nail your ass, they will.
    Last edited by Djoser; 04-10-2005 at 01:30 AM.
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pan Dah
    WRONG!!!!

    A common myth on the street with no basis in law. I wonder how many petty dealers and hookers have discovered this the hard way.
    Wow, thanks for clearing that up (though I wasn't seriously suggesting this as a way to avoid arrest in a SC.) Come to think of it, I guess I have heard that this is just a myth....but why is it such a persistent myth? I mean, does anyone know how it got started? Is there something in the law that encourages this common misperception?

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    Wwanderer is probably correct in his assertion that this type of definition is meant to include fetish services rather than table dances, but the authorities were able to use the broad definition to make the arrests that were necessary to close the club permanently
    Just imagine what the statues would look like if they tried to spell out in explicit detail all of many types and styles of sex plus even the more common fetishes... But the problem of LE using very vaguely/broadly written laws for purposes the legislature never intended, or perhaps even imagined, is a common one in the law. There are many well known examples in constitutional laws, of course...so it goes all the way to the highest levels of the legal system. In other words, right...broad legal definitions of prostitution could be used to charge dancers in many states. Whether or not a judge or jury would swallow the theory and convict is another question, but if you get arrested and charged with a crime, it can make one hell of a hassle and mess in your life even if you are ultimately aquitted...or even if the charges are dropped at some point. The arrest itself is a kind of punishment that the cops have at their disposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    Come to think of it, I guess I have heard that this is just a myth....but why is it such a persistent myth? I mean, does anyone know how it got started? Is there something in the law that encourages this common misperception?
    It definitely is a myth, of course; just about any form of police undercover work would be impossible, and much of it would be deadly dangerous, if the cops were required to tell the truth when asked if they are LE.

    However, I think it does have a tiny real basis in that a good defense attorney can try to use it to sway a jury; in other words, it may make the jurors feel slightly more sympathetic for the defendant, a little more like he/she was unfairly "entrapped" if the undercover cops tell boldfaced lies in response to direct questions. It is most definitely NOT a valid legal defense, and the police lie does NOT make it entrapment, but a good attorney can sometimes fuzz things up enough in the minds of jurors to get a decision in his/her favor, especially if the opposing attorney doesn't do a good job, even if his/her case/arguments are far from legally or logically solid. Happens all the time. But anyway, asking is definitely not going to get the undercover cop to identify himself nor save you from getting arrested and is not even likely to help much with your defense either...but maybe a little bit.

    -Ww
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Following a bench trial before the Delaware County Court, Room # 2, Owens was convicted of prostitution, a Class A Misdemeanor, fined $2,500, and sentenced to the Indiana Women's Prison for one year.
    And herein lies the injustice of this. A dancer who is (bogusly or not) charged with prostitution who retains a good local attorney faces a misdemeanor charge on her record, plus a fine of $1000 or more, plus the distinct possibility of spending a couple of weeks as a 'guest of the county', plus a year or two of probation, if she has the audacity to plead innocent, take her case in front of a jury, and lose because the 'word of a well respected cop' caused the jury to virtually ignore everything the dancer said in court as bullshit. A dancer who relies on a public defender is likely to wind up with a fine of $2000 or more, plus the distinct possibility of spending a couple of months as a 'guest of the county', plus two or three years of probation if she pleads innocent and loses in court. However, by going to a jury trial, the dancer preserves her right to appeal her case to a higher court in the future, as well as her right to apply for 'expungement' of her criminal record.

    On the other hand, the same dancer could probably accept a plea bargain to a lesser charge, pay a $250 or $500 fine, do no jail time, and at most one year of probation. However, by agreeing to plead guilty, the dancer gives up all rights of appeal and in some states gives up her right to apply for 'expungement' of her record as well.

    If there is any bright light of justice in this whole affair, it is that if a dancer does take her case to an appeals court after being found guilty in a local court, the odds are actually pretty good that she will be acquitted unless there is hard proof that she broke the law. The appeals court takes the 'local politics' factor out of the equation. The appeals court judge(s) are better versed in the law in regard to the constitutionality of local convictions based on an overzealous local DA's 'stretching' of prostitution laws and a fairly ignorant local judge's willingness to buy into the DA's warped line of reasoning. The appeals court judge(s) are also fairly well versed in the fact that political machinations can bring a lot of pressure on local cops to be 'creative' when giving evidence and testimony at a local trial.

    Thus if you really are determined to try and beat a bogus prostitution charge you can probably do so in appeals court .... IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT ! I have been through this sort of bullshit more than once, and the last appeal wound up costing me over $6,000 in legal fees for an excellent local attorney with experience filing appeals (which is an absolute must !), on top of the $4,000 in extra travel and accomodation expenses and lost income to appear in appeals court for two days running instead of working in a club earning money. However, if you are found innocent on appeal your record will be totally wiped clean. If you are found guilty again on appeal there is nothing more they can do to you in the way of fines or jail time than was done at the original local trial (other than you wasting ten grand and going through another ton of anguish to accomplish nothing !!).

    As far as having criminal records 'expunged' after being found guilty in court (or in some states after accepting a plea bargain), the procedures, requirements, and eligibility for this varies widely from state to state. Usually it boils down to having one and only one charge on your record as a result of the original local trial and guilty verdict (or in some states after an original plea bargain), successfully completing your probation without incident, and then paying an attorney AGAIN to go back to court and file a petition for 'expungement' some 18 months after you were originally charged and convicted. 'Expungement' does not totally remove the record of your conviction from the criminal database though. The original charge and guilty verdict/plea is still available for viewing by cops and judges, and can be used against you if and when you are ever busted a second time for the same offense. However, 'expungement' does wipe the charge off the active criminal database which is the one checked by prospective employers, private eyes etc.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-10-2005 at 12:24 PM.

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    Veteran Member Yea's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by 242_fair
    [I]
    and sentenced to the Indiana Women's Prison for one year.
    242-fair
    OMG.. thats so freak'n unbelievable


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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yea
    OMG.. thats so freak'n unbelievable
    Well don't forget that this particular girl was working in a massage parlor and actually offered to perform a blatant sex act with the undercover cop for a stated price, and probably used a public defender for counsel at her trial, and perhaps had previous convictions on her record, so the judge threw the book at her. If the girl in question had been a club dancer with no prior record, and no blatant sex act was involved (i.e. a conviction would have to depend on a creative interpretation of prostitution laws), the penalties would typically be much less severe.

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    Veteran Member Yea's Avatar
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    TRUE.. Thanks Melonie, I can close monster job search now! lol


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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yea
    TRUE.. Thanks Melonie, I can close monster job search now! lol
    I won't even speculate as to what you're trying to say with that statement LOL

    At any rate, these days if a girl is dancing in a city where there is the least hint of 'tension' between the club she's working at and the city fathers/conservative groups trying to bust that club, it's very cheap insurance to do the following.

    - set aside $500 cash with a friend who will NOT be present at the club while you are working, for the purpose of the friend coming down to the local lockup and paying your bail at 5AM if and when you are busted.

    - book an hour's consulation with a good local attorney tomorrow (probably will cost you $100-$200max), for the dual purpose of getting some professional advice as to how to conduct yourself if/when you are ever busted ... but more importantly to have the attorney's card in your purse and dance bag so you can drop his name loudly during a bust (this alone may save you from being charged or lessen the charges, as most local cops know the local attorneys).

    - set aside another $1000 cash which you can hand to that attorney to represent you in court after you are busted. Good attorneys never work for free and you're placing your future in the hands of a fool if you can't afford your own lawyer and are forced to use the club's attorney (see conflict of interest) or a public defender (usually dumb as a stump or working both sides of the case).

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-10-2005 at 12:39 PM.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: What contact is legal?

    Roflmao


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